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Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Here I am, I have been fighting a weird issue with my 34. It's a hopped up 59ab, rebuilt with 2k miles on it now roughly.
So I have had a weird issue, sitting and idling after its warmed up, it will bobble a bit, and start to feel off. Power is still great, no issues driving it but idle is the issue. Been through the carbs 10 times, I have swapped out to a new carb for testing, went down to 1 carb and still did the junk to me. Thought it was vapor lock, added a inline electric fuel pump and no resolve. I also changed from a 3 ohm internally regulated coil to a external regulated coil with a ballast resistor. New points replaced the stock 1942 set that was in there, I have had 10 condensers installed, cap, rotor, etc. I am running a nice set of Noble Speed solid core plug wires and NGK plugs NGK B8HS10 Standard Coil UC12T Standard Ballast resistor RU-13T This made the issue less frequent, but engine temps over 180 she will do it. I can make her do it pretty easy now. Once she dies, sometimes she will restart sometimes not. A few days back I was stress testing her and she did it. Dies out and wouldn't restart. Tested spark, it was still blue but jumps about 1/8" instead of over a 1/4" It was doing. So I Jumped the ballast resistor, fired up instantly. This shows some of the issue, I know I could put the starter button with a diode and get 12v to the load side of the ballast resistor to fix this issue, but I am after the main issue plaguing me here of dying out.... The internal resisted coil made this restart issue, having to wait 2 to 5 min and it would restart. Coil has always gotten warm, even with the ballast resistor now it gets warm but not as hot as the internal resistor one did. With this said, I've seen alot of people aiming for 3 ohms combined to keep the amperage down. Everyone says under 3.5 amps is key. 12.5volts, 3 ohms = 4.16 amps on paper, tested in real life = 4.25 amps 14.5 volts running at 3 ohms would be 4.83 amps. Ohms law doesn't quite figure in thermal loss and resistance changes but still I am well into the 4 amp area. I could go to a 2ohm coil with a 2 ohm ballast and cut my amperage down close to acceptable low 3 range to mid 3. I know there are some stellar guys here who have fought the fight longer than I have. Just looking to get this car dependable again. It's done it in the cold weather but mostly does it in the 85 degree and above here. Thanks in advance. |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Vacuum leak somewhere. Get yourself a vacuum gauge and connect into the intake manifold and read the chart that comes with the gauge. Regards, Kevin.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor I also suggest the vacuum gauge. Have you tried to remove the idle mixture screws and check the small passage is clear. Each screw should effect idle if one does not that is the one to check.
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I have thought the same. I did find one vacuum leak on my Sharp intake that I was using, pulled it off and put on my Offenhauser 2x2. The bad part about the vacuum port on these dual planes is its only getting signal from 4 cylinders of the motor. I have found this test to be a bit off at idle as well since the isky 1007b cam has a nice overlap. 12-15 at idle, Off idle I get 15 to 18, 1200 rpm I am over 20. Verified by my motorminder gauge inside. Terry, I had both bases apart, full clean, rodded passages out, upper transition slot and lower with .030 welding wire, no obstructions. Every screw will do exactly what it should. Both carbs were synched with an airflow synch tool. The front base has a little more side to side play in the idle screws than the rear, but they sill seat just fine. Emulsion tubes have been replaced, carb tops were re surfaced, these Largo Logo Stromberg 97s have had the full gammet done to em. I have the o-rings on all the intake valve guides when I built it, and 175 psi average compression across the board. 5 min of idling the coil will be warmed up while the block is still cold. I did a amp test running, I am averaging 3.2 amps running with current setup after 5 min. Voltage to the coil after ballast resistor is 7 volts running. I am thinking these Standard T series coils may be the issue, I have heard alot of things lately on their quality being junk these days. I went ahead and ordered a Bosch 00012 to see how that goes. Fingers crossed! :eek: |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor I would use a coil marked for use with an external resistor when running an external resistor. Otherwise the combination will have too much resistance when everything gets hot.
Also, are you running the factory wiring? If yes, is the coil power wire still running through the resistor under the dash on the firewall? |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor i'm experiencing a similar problem, with my standard '41 setup. and have performed many of the tasks you have performed, trying and failing, to fix it. new distributor, points, condenser, plugs, wires, carb, fuel pump, etc., etc. starts readily, runs great at idle, and for about ten minutes out on the road at speed, and then begins the inevitable misfiring. progressing to the point, that i'm very, VERY relieved that i made it home without a calling a tow truck. :(
lately, i've been contemplating running a jumper directly from the battery to the coil in hopes of bypassing complications involving unwanted or possibly detrimental resistances. when i do it (and it could be a while, as i'm working on the parking brake system), i'll report my findings... :) i'm not all that concerned about burning up the coil, as i have two new ones, that i assume are working properly, and a third that came with the car, that i have no real reason to think is not. |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor hueyhoolihan: You have the classic signs of a bad ignition condenser or coil. If when cold OK and warm NG.
Consider a magneto condenser and have your original ford coil rebuilt by Skip Heney in Fla. |
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The factory wiring was trash and the resistor was removed as it was damaged as well. So its path is through the fuse block then straight off ignition switch. I put the bosch internally regulated coil on, fired up good and strong. I also checked the gaps on the plugs, they were a bit wide as well, .032 so tightened them up to spec .025. We will see how she does when I get a chance to take her out. I bypassed the ballast resistor when I installed the new coil since I didn't want to double resistance the circuit. 10 min run, normally the heads were as hot as the coil, this time, I could grab the coil and hold on to it. It was warm but not hot. First time ever! I know larger gaps on plugs can make the ignition system work harder, that may have be a little contributing factor? So we will see how she likes the changes. Fingers crossed!!!! |
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Sounds like you may have a proper coil on it now. It would be interesting to know the amperage going through the points.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor 1 Attachment(s)
After suffering through a series of bad condensors from napa on my crab in the woodie, I decided to switch to something I have used for 53 years without an ignition failure. My other hobby vehicles have been toyotas, land cruisers from the 60's in particular, but have had many daily driver totota pickups since 1971. Maybe some out there still think that Japanese stuff is junk, but they sure make good electrical parts. I have since been buying nos nippondenso condensors from late 60s-mid 70s. In fact I sent my last nos one to busmania along with the crab I sold him. Yesterday I received a package of 4 nos condensors for (if I remember correctly, a '71 corolla) I don't know what a microfarad is but these have 22 of them. I think that's about what we look for in our flathead fords. These were 11 bucks apiece with free shipping. 2 were in unopened boxes, other 2 clearly unused but no box. They come up often and I think this is a very good source for an inexpensive and highly reliable condensor.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor As I have said before, the actual capacitance of a condenser is unimportant if it's within reason (.10 microfarads to .50). With modern coils, .22 microfarads are about perfect.
It's nice to know there may be a source of decent codensers out there. |
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Thanks Pete! And let's not rule out that they very well may be available still from toyota. Never checked.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Nice cool piece of info GB
Well, did my first stress test out in the wild today. 80 degrees this morning, did fine. Made it the 15 miles with no issues. Driving home low 90s outside, motor never got over 170 degrees so the walker radiator is doing its job. 10 miles in, doing great, then I was coming to a stop, she died, thankfully had the foot on the clutch, so popped it and fired right back up like nothing happened. I pulled the choke ever so slightly to increase the idle speed a smidge, no more of this issue on the way home at all. Turning in the neighborhood, downshifted to 1st to make the turn in, but never came to a stop, made the left turn and she started coughing like she was out of fuel, few seconds of breaking up and she came back to life and pulled like a raped ape. I had one thought that was kinda disproven today, that the lower vacuum signal from a larger cam, makes the distributor brake do weird things, but I watched my moto minder inside the car, idle I have a fluctuating 15 roughly, and when these issues, she didn't really shown weird signs of vac issues, I have tested around carbs bases for leaks, intake gasket etc. NADA. One issue was under deceleration, and the other after deceleration and turning. Coincidence? who knows. I really don't want to drop a grand on new carbs but we may be at that point. These 2 things she has never done before, but I have always found that increasing the idle speed seems to keep the dying out at bay. So, I am really thinking we are at a weird spot of carb issues or fuel delivery. May ditch the copper fuel lines from the mech pump to the carbs and go to rubber lines for heat soak issues. I'm pulling at straws right now. Off idle, midrange and top, she runs beautifully. Maybe @unclemax can chime in? |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor I would be checking your float level or levels and fuel pressure. Do you have a good fuel filter?
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Float were set dry. Did a wet test on the car. 1/8” low on fuel level so maybe?
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor if i had weights in my distributor that affected timing advance i might be focusing on whether or not they are responding immediately dramatic decreases in RPM. if they dont, ignition timing can be very inaccurate and cause unexpected stalling.
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I did do a stress test today in the garage, 200 degrees with a Edelbrock 94 that came with an engine I had bought a while back. This is the brand new Holley 94 produced by Edelbrock. Pretty nice carb, insides look brand new. Put it on, took alot of adjustment to get it to idle. Idle is clean, get a little chop chop chop then lighter ,then more chop chop chop like normal. Heated it all up, no real issues at all. Shut it off, it was a little harder to restart but didn't have to touch the throttle and she fired off after about 5 rotations. So maybe I need to buy a few new Strombergs or buying a new Big 97 and running a dummy out of all the parts I have here. This carb change shed some light on things. So real world test will follow probably this week. |
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Pulled the distributor off when it was HOT. Curse words were said, but the advance was sticking when hot. once it cooled down the advance worked smooth like butter. I had a advance off another distributor here, so swapped that out, then I was looking at the vacuum brake, the piston fit a little loose in bore, you could rattle it side to side a couple thou. Checked the other housing I was scavenging from, NO play. So I have cleaned, built another distributor out of some parts etc. Wish Bubbas was still around, Id just send the distributor to him and let him do his voodoo magic to it. But maybe I have found something. FINGERS CROSSED> Hope everyone had a good weekend! |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor 2 Attachment(s)
Took the advance apart. This looks a bit rough but I don’t have a lot to go off of on experience on these advances. Shaft kinda binds a smidge going in and out of the weight plate.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Quote:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...2&d=1756218892 |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Big Kev, I think, after reading your story, that you may have multiple issues, but one main issue I am having is to understand exactly what you are working with. In various places in your narrative, you speak of 12 volts, 4 barrel carbs, multiple carbs, single carbs, internally resisted coils, vaccuum brake distributor, brand new carburetors, hopped up 59A, who know what incompatible parts. Tell us exactly what you have to give us a fighting chance at helping you.
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59ab, factory relieved block bored .125 over bore. Isky 1007b camshaft with real Johnson adjustable lifters. Aluminum timing gear Late model 1 piece valve guides with chevy style valves. Offenhauser heads .400 clearance for valves. Offenhauser 2x2 intake setback style for generator clearance. Normally runs two large logo Stromberg 97s on top, 46 jets inside both carbs-4 hole style emulsion tubes. 5/16 copper fuel line supplied to both carbs off the fuel pump. New fuel pump rod, measured out 100% to spec. single gasket on the fuel pump stand as well. Verified with gauge I am 2.5 psi running fuel pressure with both pumps on as well as the mechanical pump only running. Fuel is rebuilt factory pump pulling through a bosh pump on the frame rail as a fail safe, prime pump, pulls through just fine. Barely use it unless super hot outside or priming for cold start. Both carbs sit on phenolic spacers 1/4" tall. Crab Distributor, vacuum brake hooked up to manifold vacuum. Points gapped to .014 on both. Dwell is 34 degrees on the tester. Bosch 00012 12v internally regulated coil no ballast resistors at all now. Spark plugs are NGK b7hs Nobel speed solid core plug wires, Rajo ends on the plug side. 12v Superstart battery, 4 gauge battery cables, ground to transmission, and jumper ground from there to the chassis as well. All terminals are clean as the day they were new. All grounds cleaned with Scotchbrite for 0.0 ohm of resistance from battery to the engine block, trans and chassis. Powermaster gear reduction starter. Powermaster Power gen alternator. Power from the battery comes inside the car 10 gauge wire to a 4 fuse block, glass fuses, from there goes to each respective load. The ignition switch on the column is used for the ignition, so the path from the fuse block goes 10 gauge to the switch, out of switch 16 gauge to the coil and 16 gauge to the gauges in the car. The other loads are electric fuel pump and cowl lights on circuit, brake light switch on its own circuit and headlights on the last. The only recent change is the removal of the Stromberg 97s and installation of a single Edelbrock 94 carburetor. All are 2 barrel units. When running on only 1 carb I have a 1/2" thick plate to bolt in place of the carb that is removed. https://youtu.be/va8kw1Y0si4?si=ZmktifaYq0mDgueY |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor How was your 34 degrees of dwell determined? KRW or sun machine?
Also Check the spring tension on the terminal stud on the distributor (should be stiff). be sure the tip of it and the brass contact on the breaker plate are clean. When it dies are the plugs wet? If not, does any starting fluid down the carb make it start? Are you running Dennis Carpenter brand points? if so replace them. Is your fuel cap or sending unit depending on your tank set up venting properly? (This one kicked my butt one time) |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor With high compression and that 1007B cam your engine will like more initial timing than a stock engine.
Also what rpm are you idling at? Your combination will require a higher idle to stop it cutting out under braking or cornering. I know it's nice to hear the slow lope at idle, but with a track cam you need a bit more idle speed. This is from experience. Martin. |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Thought you were using NGK B8HS10 ?? If so they come from the factory with 0.040" gap which is a bit too wide suggest 28 to 32.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Kev, I'm no expert at these issues, not by a long shot, but I do thank you for the detailed list of what you have to work with that the real experts can go with. I have, however, picked up on a couple things that may be worth investigating:
1 - you mentioned the vacuum brake and piston, but had nothing to say about it's leather seal atop that piston and it's rub on the advance disc. That seal does double duty, one to seal the vaccum, and two to dampen the disc. Back in the day with low octane fuel, adjustment of that damper was critical to prevent ping, but with today's fuel, its main purpose is to prevent wild bouncing of the advance disc. Adjustment to provide that dampening effect may be fruitful: A leather softened with oil, turned to a fresh rub spot, and cranked in enough to stabilize but not immobilize is good. 2 - The shaft binding on the disc is a no brainer, I assume you've gotten that issue taken care of. 3- You may have done this already, but try running the Bosch pump continuously for a test run, but only if you have a proper pressure regulator in the system. your stated 2 ½ lbs is perfect, but is it consistent? A related issue can be checked if when it suddenly dies with apparent fuel loss, immediately remove the air horn to check the fuel level at engine shut-down. I say immediately because a hot engine will rapidly evaporate the fuel from the bowl. There was a neat KRW visual bulb external to the bowl, but I believe it proved unreliable due to strong under-hood air currents. Again, just the village idiot here, so what do I know? |
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I just went through an adjustment of my Crab's vacuum brake this week. I was lead to do it since I was getting misses at WOT, otherwise fine. I suspected that my crab was not advancing enough at high RPM. My initial advance is set at 7°. I had rebuilt my distributor last winter so I knew that I had freedom of movement but decided to take another look at the damper. I disassembled it, cleaned the piston bore and then lubed it with some break-in oil with Teflon. I made a gasket for the large nut to disy body. I read an old article that suggested checking the vacuum brake function with a vacuum pump saying that the piston should lift at about 5 " of vacuum. I modified an air pump red nozzle so that it was tight in the disy vacuum port hole and would stay in place with light hand pressure while I pumped with the other hand. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...8&d=1757256071 I backed the vacuums bolt out all the way to the top and then turned it back in 1-1/2 turns and then checked with the vacuum pump. It lifted off at ~ 5". I then screwed the bolt out to the top again and applied some thread sealer to the bolt threads, screwed it back in again 1-1/2 turns, tightened the nut and checked it again. All was good. Then for the road test. WOT to just under 4K RPM plus and it is now perfect and the distributor is fully advancing as it should! https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...9&d=1756554491 https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...0&d=1756554491 |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor I neglected to mention that during my earlier rebuild, I made a new leather puck for the brake, oiled it then and also this last week. I had screwed the the brake in too far and it was limiting the advance. 1-1/2 turns I think is best, at least for me it is :-)
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1. yes its a good leather turned 90 degrees, the piston I am using in the new distributor is working good, no more clattering at low rpm. So I think that fixed the advance dropping down and killing the motor. 2. Yep, I took 3 distributors to make 1. 3. Did that yesterday, I really BEAT on the old gal HARD like she owed me rent money. Fuel pump running the entire time, hard stops, hard starts, corners, all of the beans. I have driven it with fuel pressure gauge inside and I am not seeing any flutter from 2.5. Thanks for the tip on the KR wilson bulbs, I always wondered about those, glad I never got one. Side note, when I first fired her up, she had a miss, BAD miss. Figured the plugs were just a little dirty from all the BS I have had going on. Cleaned em and put em back in, idle was good. Took off down the street, she had a miss still. Weird..... once she got to the end of the block the miss went away and she cleared out and the beating commenced once we got to 140 degrees on the temp. The carbs wanted more and more fuel from the mixture screws the hotter the motor got. But no dying out this time. I had wet set the floats this time to 1/2" fuel level and this seems to have helped the issues somewhat. I think you did hit a nail on the head with multiple issues. I have a good one for ya... Fired her up today, BAD miss again, shorted a few plug terminals out and found 2 that were not getting any change in rpm. Ok, pulled the plugs. Clean but a little wet. hooked up the wire and ran the motor with the plug out of the cylinder, the dang thing was firing from the porcelain to the edge of the threads. Pulled plug 2 and same thing. Going tomorrow to get some champion plugs or Autolites. In doing this today, one of the Rajah terminals broke at the 90 where its riveted on. I am going to change the wires out since these were made for the 90s and not straight boots. Hot, I did pull a plug wire to test spark, she is jumping blue 1/2" so I'm pretty sure were getting somewhere. Or I am closer to checking into Shady Oaks Asylum. :D Quote:
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Kev, A small correction here that may give you an insight on your adjustments: The "mixture screws" are merely IDLE mixture screws, not to be adjusted for anything but idle. Since you do have a lumpy cam and need a higher idle speed, they will need to provide more fuel. Locate instruction for adjusting them correctly with your cam and that should help.
EDIT: This might be the first ChatGTP advice on the Fordbarn:. :D Step-by-Step Idle Adjustment (Holley 94, Lumpy Cam) Warm it up Run the engine until it’s at full operating temperature. Make sure choke is fully open. Baseline settings Gently seat both idle mixture screws (don’t force). Back each screw out 2 full turns. Set the idle speed screw so the engine will just stay running (probably around 650–750 rpm for a lumpy cam). Hook up a vacuum gauge (if you have one) Plug it into a full-manifold vacuum port. If not, just go by ear and feel. Adjust one side Pick one idle screw. Turn it in slowly until the engine just starts to stumble or rpm drops. Now turn it out slowly until rpm peaks (or vacuum is strongest). Leave it there. Adjust the other side Do the same with the second idle screw: in until stumble, then out to the sweet spot. Re-check idle speed If rpm is too high or too low, use the idle speed screw (on the throttle arm) to bring it back to a steady idle. Expect around 700 rpm as a realistic goal with a lumpy cam (stock would be lower). Final tweak Go back and make a small touch-up on each idle screw (⅛ turn either way) to get the best compromise: highest steady rpm, strongest vacuum, and smoothest response when you crack the throttle. |
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- Left side turns in = 1-3/8 - Right side turns in = 1-1/4 Finally set both out 1-5/16 turns |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Thanks Ford38v8. Yeah may be the first time ever I have seen AI quoted in this stuff, but hey it really goes through the normal process I use honestly word for work. Glad to know the old timers taught me something that the computers figured out.
I bumped up to 600 idle speed, she seems to like that, I can see 500 and she shakes and sounds fun but Ill take a little more idle speed to keep her happy honestly. I put a new set of NGK I had bought a while back for something else. I didn't want to go to the store and buy another set of plugs just to be disappointed and throwing money at issues. NGK BR6hs plugs. These have a resistor core to them. Honestly it's been months since she fired on less than a full revolution and once ran, she fires under 1/4 revolution. These are a hotter resistor plug, so we will see how this all pans out. I have heard alot of folks say not to use resistor plugs with points etc. I normally don't run them as well just purely off what the old timers told me back when. Kinda like suppression core wires is only if you want a radio to work. |
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor too bad they aren't thumb screws..would facilitate accuracy. if i had all the time in the world and a lot more ambition i'd have someone braze a couple of dimes on the ends.
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Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor I just went through this entire thread. Lots of good info. I’m in the process of resurrecting one of my crab distributors to test on my Allen Syncrograph machine. I can say the following:
1. No play or “grabbiing” on my advance plate. 2. Both the pistons I have for the vacuum brake fit nicely with no slop. 3. Cleaned up ALL electrical contact points with 600 grit paper. Thus includes condenser tabs, main ground stud nuts, distributor hsg where condenser mounts. Contact area on main plate for spring loaded ground stud. Of course breaker points cleaned, rotor and contact points cleaned. Questions for you: 1. I’m running the same cam in my C59A. What is your advance setting on the distributor? 2. What conditions are the csm lobes in? 3. Did you lub all the contact surfaces for the moving parts? 4. What condition are the rotor contacts points in? I watched this vid to help me. He says folks run no vacuum brake without issues. https://youtu.be/US6Gg7hhFRI?si=Cm8-TN4p3t_M2UdD |
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My initial setup is timing it using the bolt factory method. My timing tab on the distributor shows dead in the middle. Yes I used synthetic grease for those parts and used 30w motor oil for the hard bushings in rear and point plate. Rotor contact points are good. A minor variance on the micrometer of .0002 think was worst I had. I run a very thin coat of synthetic grease on this where the point arms contact. Found it to stay in place. One find I did notice when pulling the old distributor down was a sheen of oil inside the distributor. Not thick. Just looks like aluminum with a little oil in its pores. Makes me wonder if the point plate was floating ground with that as added resistance when hot. It’s plausible. The vac brake was deff an issue though. Sounds like you’re on the way to making a good distributor as well. If ya try with no brake let me know how it goes. |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor Sounds good. If my machine ends up working, I’ll test the heck out of it and post up the results. Got a thread going on the HAMB.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...1217704/page-2 |
Re: Ignition Issues, Crab distributor 3 Attachment(s)
By some miracle, as I’m playing around with the machine, and with the crab distributor mounted, I got the strobe lights and tach to work. If anyone knows how to use this thing, please PM as the manual I purchased for it is almost useless.
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