Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Please can I have people's tips and tricks for a relatively easy head removal, preferably without cracking the head which I intend to re-use and without special tools.

I've seen the rope trick but that only works with an engine relatively free of rust, which I suspect mine isn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TNwtHdvH1w&t=26s
Car not running so won't be able to use engine compression.

Not a big fan of the plate and bolt procedure.

Thanks.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

That method applies force in four strong spots. I suppose if the spark plug threads are weak, it could strip them, but maybe that is better than the threads failing on the road.

This isn't much different, for use with the engine hoist:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...2&d=1481466357

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Can anyone please tell me what is the thread size in the spark plug once the ceramic part is removed? I don't have one here.
If using the engine hoist method, is there any benefit to running a heat gun around the joint first?

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

I didn't know that a spark plug had female threads. After breaking out the ceramic, I used a load rated forged eyebolt and nut and centered it with JB Weld, then ground the nut corners to clear the spark plug threads. Welding works, too.

I don't think a heat gun would make much difference at the joint. Maybe a propane torch at the studs, with your favorite penetrating oil.

A search here for Head Removal should give you a lot of tips.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Here's two I made:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/pictu...ictureid=34270

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

I'm wondering where the sticking points actually are. Surely the head gasket keeps the head and block from fusing together with rust? Is it around the studs where they go through the head that the fusing occurs? If so I think heat and penetrating oil on the studs would indeed be a good start, before the hoist.

I have a hoist leveller, in which case would the angle iron in your picture be necessary...perhaps for load sharing between the bolts?

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

This is how I do it.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

This has worked for me.

Remove distributor, fan belt, and upper water hose. Remove all of the head bolts.

Now hit the starter. Compression should pop head up.

Enjoy.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

It's a non-runner.
Rope trick is a similar principle I think.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

The sticking points most generally are between the stud and the cylinder head itself they get rusty and corrode and you have a lot of studs that are corroded.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Spark plug threads are 7/8"-18.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

The angle iron splits the load between two points, yes.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Spray Deep Creep, Kroil or a similar penetrant around the head studs with the nuts removed. Do this a couple times a day for a few days. Like Fullraceflathead writes, I have found the usual sticking point is where the studs go up through the head. Rust forms here and makes the studs stick to the cast iron head, or visa versa. By allowing penetrating spray to loosen that bond, you stand a better chance of lifting up the head using any of the tools recommended so far. Use wood wedges of varying thickness to drive between the block and the head. Try to keep the head level when doing this. A long crowbar also helps, avoiding pinching any valve heads that are in the up position.
There have been times in the past where nothing - and I mean NOTHING - helped, even allowing the car to dangle from an engine hoist with a chain running to a spark plug eyebolt. In such extreme cases, it was necessary to use a heavy hammer and simply break the head into pieces. The head breaks easily because it is cast iron and has many hollow water cooling cavities that compromise the integrity of the head. Be sure to wear heavy gloves and eye protection if you must resort to destroying the head. The remaining pieces can then be picked off from around the studs. If the head is that rusted in place, it's mostly likely not reusable anyway.
Marshall
ADDED: Make sure you have FACE protection as well as eye protection. Those flying cast iron shards can cause serious facial damage when they split away from the head as you strike with a heavy hammer. Use a full face plastic shield.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

One other thing sometimes helps: the more studs you can remove prior to lifting off the head, the better. This reduces the number of sticking points for the head to slide past. If you are planning on replacing the studs anyway, try a vise grip with good teeth to grab onto the exposed threaded portion of the studs and twist them out. If they won't loosen after using reasonable force, stop. You do not want to snap a stud off!
Marshall

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

If the engine isn't stuck you will probably have compression anyway. :)


TOB

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

As has been suggested above, lots of penetrating oil. May take a few squirts a day for a week. I bought the head remover kit from Snyders that is similar to the angle iron above. The kit is a pair of plates that puts pressure on the studs to lift the head. If you have to, you can torque it down a little, let it set for a while and come back to it. A lot of times it will have raised up with the constant pressure.

Here's the link,

Snyders - Product Cylinder Heads HEAD PULLER KIT A-6010-PX https://search.app/kB3SUd7gnxCwHduNA

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Don't use the rope trick. In my opinion there is a good chance of damaging the rods doing so.

You can use an engine hoist to apply lifting force but be very careful because if the head does come off when doing so the head can and will come up quickly and damage (destroy) your junction box.

Resist the urge to use a pry bar, screw driver etc... to pry up the head because you can damage valves and or bust the edges of the block while doing so.

If you have a head that is very stuck using the head puller available from the vendors that screws into two of the spark plug holes and pushes against four of the head studs works very well and is money well spent.

When lifting the head as others have mentioned the main source of resistance is the friction between the head studs and the head.

When you get it to move concentrate on lifting the head evenly. Sometimes I have had to put a head stud nut back on one or two studs to keep the head from lifting in that area to allow the other areas to lift / catch up.

Another thing that helps is to drive the head back down onto the block after getting it to move some. Doing so will loosen the rust surrounding the head studs.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Have you ever seen that actually happen? What makes you think the weak torque applied by the starter motor is capable of bending a rod?

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Hard plastic wood splitting wedges have helped.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

I'm starting to favour the plate and bolts method as in George's video in the first post.

A pain in the neck to set up but looks like it solves all the issues and problems people have brought up and George says he has never known it not to work. It provides a nice slow even pressure on ALL the studs at more or less the same time and no chance of the head suddenly hitting the roof.
The other thing I like about it is that I have seen the commercial tools ( and the rope trick) really only do either a couple of studs at a time or they are only able to lift up to about an inch or even less. Plenty of times I have seen that the head starts to lift a few mm and then stops, still stuck....it still has another few inches to go but the commercial tool or using compression, 'aint gonna get you there. George's design eliminates all those issues.

Now, where do I get 7/16"x9" coach/carriage bolts....hmm, I can't, so I am going to use all thread for all of them 10mm which is about 1mm less than 7/16".....as I will be using that American miracle whip, JB Weld for the spark pug holders and it only sits on top of the studs without threading in, the size doesn't matter.

PS: Please excuse the use of mixed measures, sometimes it's easier to visualise a few mm and sometimes it's easier to visualise an inch....we still do that a lot in Oz.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Very good point!!

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Is there a way of being able to mark the positions of each stud on a steel plate ready for drilling without having a head gasket available as a template to mark it up with accurately. The gasket I want isn't available here and I'm not ready to make my big order in the US....(small orders work out way too expensive for international shipping per item).

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Use bluing to mark the tops of the studs and then put the plate on top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer's_blue

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Would the plate rest flat on all the studs at the same time? (excluding the water inlet studs of course).

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Probably not, you’d probably have to do multiple passes. It’s not a great solution, I was just trying to offer an idea that would work within your stated constraints.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Thanks
I think it really needs the gasket to do it spot on.
This is why I didn't like the plate and bolt idea from the get go....too fiddly.

But I think it is probably the best approach.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

No actually I have not seen that happen but I think that it is a possibility.
It just doesn't seem to me (perhaps I'm the only one) to be a sound way to remove a stuck head.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

What I'll say in its defense is:

1. It is by far the most recommended solution every time this problem comes up, by people who say it worked for them, so from an empirical standpoint it seems to be reliable.

2. 90% of stuck heads aren't literally fused to the block, they're just heavily gummed up and you don't have a good way to grip them from the outside. The force required to remove them is not large if applied effectively, and that's what the rope trick does.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

For the "rope trick", never heard of using the starter, used a socket and breaker bar, gently on the crank (ratchet) nut.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

I know there's a lot of people who cringe at the rope method, but it's actually quite safe.

Here's how it is done (fast forward to about 7:30)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du1AZS5y3r8

Here's the full explanation of how and why the rope trick works so well- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M7o5v_exXE

Easy, safe.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Thank you ;-)

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

When rebuilding is there an engineering reason for not replacing the studs with bolts, like modern car? This would surely make life easier for the next person to remove the head.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Studs provide much more consistent clamp force. Since the A head already doesn’t have as many fasteners as it should, switching to bolts would increase the risk of head gasket failure.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Pictured are of the one I made to remove stuck and not stuck Model A heads.
I have used this on a couple of heads and have loaned it out to others with great success removing the head. The chain is hooked to bolts that go thru two old Model A spark plugs with the porcelain removed. The bolts pictured in the plate are half inch diameter with a nut on the back side. The bolts set on the head studs. It takes two wrenches one to hold the bolt and another to tighten against the bottom side of the plate thus lifting the head. A spare head was used to lay out the head stud pattern.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Why? If the nuts/heads of the bolts are the same dimension, and the diameter of the bolts/studs are unchanged , I can't understand why it should make any difference... though presumably it does :confused:

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

To understand why, we have to think about the nature of the materials being used.

When you fasten a cylinder head to a block, particularly with flathead engines, your main objective is to create a perfect seal around the combustion chamber. After ignition, the expanding combustion gases will try to escape the chamber. We want to force them to push against the piston, which means we need to seal off other avenues of escape.

Head gaskets are weak and fragile things relative to the other materials in the engine, so the combustion gases will try to displace the gasket and escape into the water jacket. The only way to prevent that is to make it impossible for the gasket to be displaced. To do that, you have to clamp the gasket between the block and the head in such a way that the force on every point in the gasket is as strong as possible.

Cast iron is a very strong, rigid material, so we can put clamping force on the gasket by placing fasteners at key points around the head and tightening those fasteners down. The cast iron in the head will take the clamp load applied by the fastener to a very small area (the area under the bolt head/nut) and distribute it across a wide surface. This lets us use a small number of bolted joints to apply clamping force evenly across the surface of the gasket. By tightening the fastener above a certain threshold, we prevent the gasket from being displaced, which would induce head gasket failure.

However, cast iron is not infinitely rigid. If you apply too much clamping force, it will flex/warp around the bolted joint. Some parts of the mating surfaces will deform toward each other and other parts will deform away from each other. In any spot where the head and block deform away from each other, the clamp load on the gasket will be decreased. This introduces the risk of head gasket failure again.

Therefore the clamping force applied by the cylinder head fasteners must be inside a particular range. Not so light that the combustion gases can overcome the force and displace the gasket, but not so heavy that the mating surfaces become distorted, disrupting the gasket seal and allowing displacement.

We now come back to your original question of bolts vs studs. On a Model A, the threads in the block are 7/16-14, coarse pitch, while the threads at the top of the stud are 7/16-20, fine pitch. The block threads are also class 3 fit. Class 3 joints have very close tolerances. You will notice when threading in a cylinder head stud by hand, there is a fair amount of friction in the turning even though there is no load on the stud.

If you were to use bolts to seal the head to the block, and particularly if you did it without lubrication, a very high proportion of the torque applied in the tightening would be used simply to overcome friction in the joint. The pitch is coarse, so a given amount of rotation on a bolt tightens the joint more than the same rotation on a head nut, and the tolerances are very close. Furthermore, these engines are 90 years old, so the threads are likely already torn up a little bit from prior wear and tear.

It has been clearly established in engineering science that the more friction there is in a bolted joint, the more variance there will be in the exact value of the friction. So across the 14 fasteners in the cylinder head, you might get friction resistance that varied by 20%, 30%, or even 40%. If you are applying identical torque on each fastener, this means the actual tightening force on those fasteners will vary by up to 40% as well.

This is the key reason that bolts are not suitable for this application. It is not possible to ensure that the clamp load on all the bolts will be within that critical range I talked about earlier, where the gasket is clamped tightly enough that it can't be displaced, but not so tightly that the block or head deform.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Do you consider copper spray on the gasket to be unnecessary snake oil or useful to help get a good seal?

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

The purpose of copper spray is to compensate for small imperfections in the finish of the mating surface. If one or both components are being assembled without having just been professionally surfaced, using copper gasket spray on that side of the gasket may improve the seal.

So for example when I put a brand new head on an engine, if the block hasn't just been decked, I would do a light coat of copper spray on the side of the gasket that goes against the block, but not on the side facing the head.

(Unless the manufacturer of the head specified that you should do that. Always follow vendor instructions.)

Copper spray will not correct for a warped surface.

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

Is there any benefit to using copper spray if both surfaces have just been decked, as an extra safety precaution or is it counterproductive?

Re: Head Removal: Tips 'n Tricks
 

I don't have a strong opinion on that one. I do know the 509G gasket is reputed to work well without sealant, and folks say that the only result of applying copper spray there is to make it harder to scrape the gasket off when you change it.

For the older style copper gaskets, accounts vary. Traditionally you would apply some kind of sealer to the gasket. Could be anything from silver paint to axle grease.

The goal is always to compensate for imperfections in the surface. Sometimes people talk about adhering the gasket to the surface, or keeping it from shifting when the head is tightened down. None of these treatments will keep a gasket from displacing under combustion pressure if the clamp load and surface flatness are inadequate.