Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I have been reading the threads on brake improvement for Model A Ford's. I have not seen much about the Floater kits available from the vendors.
Are the floater kits of any help? If so are they worth the cost?
I saw on the thread about brake drums and Hydraulic conversion where nkaminar had talked about using the rear levers on the front. I thought about trying that. But still was thinking about the floaters. Does anyone have instructions on installing the floaters? I just do not understand how they work.
Is the floaters for just the front or are they for all four brakes?
Thanks in advance.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Have you looked here: http://flatheadted.com/

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

the biggest improvement you can make is cast iron drums

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

correct! i got my Margarethe from the Netherlands (no hills) and where i live we do have some hills, not the Alps but nethertheless. I threw out the old tine drums and swapped them against cast iron drums with new brake shoes, just the front, with brake equalizers. Totally different car. Now i can brake a second and third time going downhill whereas before the second trial always resulted in additional braking with the emergency brake.


Next winter i will also swap the rear drum brakes, but that's not a high priority. I don't need more capability in the brakes...

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Wow! Just came to the Barn to ask the same question! I look forward to the responses. I ordered some floater for the front brakes from Mikes last night because they were really affordable. But one thing a person should not skimp on is stopping power especially in todays traffic. I’ve been eyeing the flat head Teds.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I am of the impression that you will find both good and bad reviews on Flat Head Ted's. I installed them on our Town Sedan several years back when re-doing the braking system, and I struggle now with the brakes locking up when I go to back up after having applied the brakes (I always have to go forward slightly in order to release them). I have a friend who has commented that he had had the same experiences, and removed that set-up and returned to the original linkages. I am considering doing the same on this car as well. By the way, just as an FYI when considering whether other factors might be involved, when we did the brakes on my car, I replaced all bushings, rollers, shafts, cast iron brake drums, etc. I have not been able to determine any significant difference between that car and our other Model A's that do not have the Flat Head Ted's set-ups. Good luck whatever direction you decide to go.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I will take a look at the web site. Thanks

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

The FHT floaters are worth it. Better stopping with less pedal pressure. But they have to be installed correctly and the brakes have to be in A1 shape to begin with.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

IMO, the main problem with the brakes on the Model A is the strong bias towards the rear. To bring that nearer the correct (by today's standards) 60/40 towards the front, I have left things as they are at the back but put cast drums with riveted woven linings on the front along with that floating pin conversion. That improved things out of sight but in a moment's inspiration, I looked at the length of the front and rear actuating levers and immediately saw why there is the bias. My answer was to graft a pair of rear actuating levers onto the front. It took a bit of machining and fiddling but now, my brakes are about as good as is possible with such narrow tyres.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

My A has original everything except drums. Stops very well, and all wheels lock up at about the same time. Not sure how that can be improved? Yes, every few years it needs a little adjustment, not a big job. My other old cars are hydraulic, its a constant struggle to get them working after sitting the winter. Maybe in a dry, temporate environment it'd be different but NOT here. As to the original posters questions, I'd say go with the new drums, fix your brakes to new specs, and drive it.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Maybe Eagle has his brakes adjusted to put more braking on the front. Backing off the rears one or two notches may do the trick.

Eagle: in your juice brakes, what fluid are you using. I understand DOT 5 does not pick up moisture, or is it synthetic brake fluid?

I put the longer levers on the front of my car after Synchro let his secrete out.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Wouldn't adjusting the brakes with more bias towards the front be another alternative, or adjusting the brakes so they all have the same amount of drag? The Ford shop bulletin and Les Andrews' approach is to start the rear brakes engaging first. Ideally, you don't want the fronts to lock up so that you maintain steering in the case of a panic stop.

My town sedan has cast iron drums and stops great. My roadster still has steel drums and stops okay given that I know their limitations, but I plan to install cast iron drums all the way around on it in the next couple of weeks. I know some people only install cast iron drums on the front, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

The bias is created by the linkage geometry,not adjustment.You can get to the more braking on the front by adjusting,but you are really just under-adjusting the rears.I've seen two instances where the Teds floaters were a problem,and one turned out to be worn adjuster housings.I didn't find the problem,another mechanic friend did.The other time I did find the problem.I adjusted the brakes as they were supposed to be done,and the problem went away.The owner had been using that board,and it is just too much of an arbitrary tool that makes no allowances for uneven wear.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I looked at Flathead Ted's website and tried to read about the different kits. I am still thinking on it.
Another question I have. Which lining is better the molded or the woven? I do not tour with the car, i just drive it for pleasure. Probably no more than 40 miles from home.
I think I will rebuild the brakes back to new stock condition plus the new cast drums. Of course that means new bushings, brake rods (mine have been bent to adjust in the past), and anything that is worn or broken and beyond repair. I may also try the rear levers on the front.
I want to have the best brakes I can without changing the mechanical brakes to Hydraulic. I want the car to look stock.
Thanks again.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Woven!

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

https://youtu.be/lcJ5LUbmro0

https://youtu.be/2EjRe411l3M

You'll need to watch both.

You can get shoes from Randy that are matched to the drum.
I was told in my youth, linings needs to be soft. Use hard at your own peril.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

The real brake upgrade is the 1932 and up brakes. I swapped my fronts to the 32 brakes and the difference is hands down amazing.

The floaters do help either these or the stocks for sure... Also ditch stamped steel drums indefinitely.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Few pics of the upgrade...

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I have all three types of lining, The original style woven, the soft Molded and the soft Woven that I got from Berts.

The original work great but are too "grabby" and noisy. The soft molded work quite well. But in my experience the soft Woven work the best, even though I have them on the heaviest car.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I'm with Big Kev, I put 35 brakes on front of my coupe this winter...What a difference !

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Hey guys, so I am trying to wrap my head around these comments. If a set of properly rebuilt 11" Model-A brakes and replacement cast iron drums will easily make 9 sudden panic stops in a row from 35mph - 00mph ...and then on the 10th pedal application it will completely lock the drums and slide the tires, exactly where is that difference coming from? Are we comparing worn 11" brakes to rebuilt 12" brakes??

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

whirnot, Is it necessary to change the spindles to use 12", '32 brake drums and backing plates?

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I put new cast iron drums all around with new woven linings. I put Ted's deluxe floater kit all around. I am having a hard time getting things right. Fronts want to make noise or grab. The set-up definitely works better than what I had, but is really finnicky about rod lengths and adjustments on the front. I believe the length and condition of the operating pins and the front brake actuating arms are critical to the front brakes being dialed in correctly. You will need to have a selection of pins and shims to get things right. It can try your patience. Even with new parts you can have problems, as no two seem to be alike, even if from the same vender. But I'm not giving up.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Ohhh No! Reading this only makes me sad for you in your struggles.

Therein lies a huge problem for others just like you IMHO when you speak of new parts and the struggle trying to "get things right". There are many things that hobbyists tend to overlook that are huge from my experience in restoring brakes.

The first is, ...I am going to guess about ½ of the brake shoe cores we find are either bent where the parabolic shape is incorrect, and/or the pin holes are oversized due to wear. If a brake shoe is not within specifications, then it will cause chattering or noise. Also, it will be hard for it to maintain proper alignment within the centerline of the drum, thus loss of efficiency.

Next speaking about the proper centerline, unless you have a fixture machined to be able to replace the Shoe Centering Bracket (A-2017) in the precise location, they are not going to work well. Ford Engineers did not allow the Agency mechanics to repair brake housing (backing) plates by replacing worn parts. The reason is because these mechanics could not hold the tolerances that Ford Engineers needed. So if the trained Model-A mechanics back in the day could not do it properly, why do we feel hobbyist mechanics today can do it correctly without any fixtures or precise locating methods?? Additionally, for several years now I have posted this when topics like this come up, but even the Mechanic's Handbook suggested measurements are over 5-TIMES the allowable specification variation that Ford Engineers specified. Ford Engineers allowed for there to be less that five-thousandths (0.005") variation. In other words, basically the thickness of one human hair in either direction!! :eek: Eyeballing the location and then installing rivets is NOT the correct way to having good brakes. Using a variety of pins to try to correct it is NOT the correct way either!! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately it has become the 'norm' to choose a method that masks or compensates for worn parts or sloppy craftsmanship now. Again, I have seen it over & over how Model-A brakes stop superbly with parts that are all within specification, ...and even with stamped steel drums that are within specs. If someone adds cast-iron drums in lieu of steel drums, the benefit of many repetitious stops without pedal fade is all that is added. While I realize all of this is likely falling on deaf ears, please consider doing the restoration correctly instead of bandaids being passed-off as upgrades.


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Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

It sounds like I should just stick with stock replacement parts with soft woven lining and forget about the floaters.
I see that some of the vendors rebuild brakes. Would it be better to have them rebuild the brakes with cast iron drums and rebuild the backing plates? If they do them regularly they should be better at it? I do not have access to brake lathes or to arch the shoes. The local auto parts stores only sell parts, they gave up on the machine shops long ago.
I have done brake work on modern cars for over 40 years but have never done anything more than check and adjust the brakes on Model A's.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

https://media.tenor.com/JeX_YHZD8NsA...-heartland.gif

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

The floaters do more than allow the shoes to float. They allow the shoes to self actuate. As Brent said, if the dealer mechanics could not get the shoe centering bracket in the right location, what hope does the hobbyist have. So the floaters do two things: eliminate the need to get the shoe centering bracket totally accurate and improve the braking by making the shoes self actuating.

Brent is right that a totally restored and accurate brake system is excellent, but few people have the ability to restore the brake system to the original specification. The floaters eliminate the need to do that and, in my opinion, are a good upgrade. However, the rest of the brake system has to be in excellent shape and the floaters installed correctly.

Now, a story about one Model A owner and his method of fixing the centering and arcing of the shoes. I was impressed with his car's braking ability. He rebuilt his brakes (cast iron drums) and then rode the brakes until the shoes seated into the drums. He probably used the soft lining on his shoes because the hard lining would not wear quickly enough for him to do the seating by wear.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Very well done! Owners that really care are hearing you.

Enjoy.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Gotta love the Chevrolet educational stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMEkxgY8yxE

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

[QUOTE=mhsprecher;2214060]Wouldn't adjusting the brakes with more bias towards the front be another alternative, or adjusting the brakes so they all have the same amount of drag? The Ford shop bulletin and Les Andrews' approach is to start the rear brakes engaging first. Ideally, you don't want the fronts to lock up so that you maintain steering in the case of a panic stop.

Locking up just the rears is what causes lack of directional control. Find a dirt or gravel road and try stopping with just the hand brake.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

>>Ideally, you don't want the fronts to lock up so that you maintain steering in the case of a panic stop.

Just to point out that, that was the thinking back then.

However, by today's standards it is no good maintaining steering if the back swings around and tries to over take the front, for the average punter.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Updraught, The Chevrolet video show self centering (floating) brake shoes. Now if both shoes were a little self actuating, that would help. My point? Well, you can just figure that out for yourself.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

I'd LOVE to have a set of '32 brakes but I've only ever seen one '32 here so I guess my chances of finding them are not real good. What is the availability like over there?

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322617
Cost a bomb to get em here.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Updraught, I'd get 'em here at an almost reasonable price but the drums are only part of what would be needed. Backing plates (complete) and shoes would help.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

My guess is that Berts would have a complete set of backing plates. The longer operating pins are made repo. Good drums are the hard thing to get.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Hot Rod guys love the 32-36 axles, I would think you could find a rodder taking off the old "junk" brakes when they go to hydraulics

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

New cast iron drums, new shoes, springs, and FHT up front, new rods and Clevis’s adjusted correctly worked for my A.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

Cast Iron Drums, make sure everything is in good repair and learn how to adjust them properly.....anything else is a waste of money and not necessary. I can lock the brakes up at any time on my 29 and lets face it when you locked up that's all the braking your going to get on stock tires. Henry loved mechanical brakes and so do I as they are very fuctionel and simple once you understand them.

Re: Brake improvement for Model A's
 

This is all that really ever needs to be said about Model A brakes.

Just like the front end. There is no half way here. They need to be taken apart completely, “ALL” worn parts replaced, and adjusted correctly.

If Ford authorized dealers were still working on our cars? What do you think they would tell you needed to be done if you went in with brake problems?

Our cars have seen to many years of shade tree mechanics working on them. Looking for the cheapest way to fix things, or without any engineering knowledge at all trying to improve them.

Don’t make fun of a properly restored and maintained car.

Worn out, is worn out!

Junk is junk!

Maintaining an antique car is like going to the dentist. You have to be willing to spend the money and do it regularly.

Once done right, it will be good to go for a long time. It’s cheaper in the long run. Correctly done and your good to run.

Haze Gray and Underway.