'36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and totally new to these old Fords and flatheads. I just bought a 36 Touring Sedan and had it shipped from Pennsylvania to The Netherlands. The car seems to be complete and in decent shape. We've started to inspect the engine first to see what we got ourselves into...:D

We pulled the heads. They have the 68- prefix, I've understoord these heads were installed at a later stage, so the engine probably was rebuilt before. No LB marking found. The car whas a late 36 VIN though. Only 'SPH' in the area between the head and intake manifold. Anyone know what this means?

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The driver's side looked ok I guess. Working on an engine is new to me, so any advice/info is welcome. The cylinders are smooth and were dry. Some coolant entered when removing the heads. What strikes me is that all the valves, except for one, are open.

We had good hopes after pulling the driver's side head, but the passenger side is different. The most rear cylinder was filled with coolant (I assume) and lots of crud. The cylinder wall is very rough with rust. Same for it's valves. The head for that cylinder is the same.

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Next will be taking of the intake manifold to have a good look inside.

Anyone any pointers/thoughts/tips/etc.??

What I'm wondering is how all the valves, except one, are open. And what happened to that wet cylinder. Leaking head gasket? Something internally? Anyone any experience with an engine looking like this? Thanks.

Dennis

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

The reason for the late heads, is that on it's last rebuild, they put domed piston in.

The valves are just stuck open. You can probably tap most of them back down.

As for main bearings, you'll have to pull a main bearing cap and check for inserts.

Check to see if there is a plate (each side) on the front of the block, where the WP would go on the later blocks. You could have a '38 style, 21 stud block.

My '35 truck engine had a late block replacement. Same heads and pistons as yours.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Welcome to the barn, looks like you have your work cut out for you. Hang around here and you’ll learn a lot.

Get yourself this book
https://shop.efv8.org/collections/fo...book-softbound

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Welcome . I’ve got 2 late 36 21 stud engines with SPH stamped on the deck , both have insert bearings. I’ve tried to determine the SHP stamping but have 2 suggestions from others , one was steel pistons and sleeves and the other I forgot . Oh well old age .
That motor looks better than the two I cleaned up . Id check to see if the pistons are steel as they use different rings , if your intent was to rering and get it running .
Good luck .
Gary

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Clean up the top of a piston and check for numbers stamped in for over size .

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Thanks! #3 Already got it. [emoji106]

Any ideas what might have caused that wet corroded cylinder?



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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Check for obvious cyl head gasket leak , spark plug missing its gasket , head crack or warped or last a crack in the block .
Don’t forget these have small welch plugs on the bottom oil pan rail that can leak coolant into the oil . Make sure to replace them .

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

That really doesnt look that bad . If I knew how to post pictures, Id show you mine before I reringed it .

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Thanks for the suggestions!

Yeah, pictures are a bit tricky. In Tapatalk on my phone, I can apparantly upload them directly into my post.

On my tablet (Fordbarn website) it's different. When replying, select 'Go Advanced', then select the Attachment symbol first (paperclip symbol), add the pictures and than go back to the reply field (page back). Then the uploaded pictures could be selected through that same attachment icon.

Not really userfriendly.


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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

The valves are up because they are stuck in the valve guides - which is pretty common given this thing has probably been sitting for decades.

The cylinder with the rust obviously had water in it - the question is from where? Did the car have an air cleaner on it when you got it? Is it possible that water came in through the carb? That would be your best situation. As others noted, can be a blown gasket, can be a cracked block, can have fatal issues or not. etc.. One thing is for sure, you can't just throw it back together and expect it to run well . . . if at all. It is guaranteed that the valve seats are rusted, the rings will have issues on that one cylinder, etc.. Pull the engine, get the correct adapter to mount it on a stand (side mount) and get into the details of it.

The right thing to do is to pull the engine and go through it - otherwise you have no idea what you're dealing with, if it can be rebuilt, etc.. I'd highly recommend that you locate some very experienced flathead guys to work with (if at all possible). These engines are relatively simple, but you still need to know the nuances about them, what to check for, what to do, what not to do, etc.. Also, any machine work that needs to be done needs to be done by a machine shop that has extensive flathead experience - otherwise all sorts of bad things can happen.

Best of luck - thanks for coming on the Barn and we look forward to seeing you getting your 36 on the road!

B&S

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

As you "clean up" that engine you might want to read GB Sicsion's post on preasure testing the block. Best wishes for a fun & GR8 build.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

too bad you didnt buy a spare motor and put it into the trunk when you shipped the car over.......

would have come in handy.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Wouldn't have fit in the trunk. We considered putting one in the rear, taking the back seat out. We were afraid though the floor wouldnt take it. Besides, we couldn't lift a spare engine by hand. But yeah, would have been very usefull.

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Took off the intake manifold today. What a surprise awaited us...[emoji3061] I don't know what happened there, but what a mess. It's the first engine I'm taking apart though, so maybe I'm wrong here. I hope so...

Dried up oil en goey everywhere. The pistons are steel, I checked that, but I couldn't find any stamps or writings about overbore. I measured the bore, says 3.08". The valves had 'Ford F' and 'Ford R' stamps.

Next will be the oil pan....

Dennishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...723a0ca8db.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e1b3a47668.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...979f1381fc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...84c35c0e6e.jpg

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Yup ! thats a crusty flathead ! CALLING MART...TO THE FRONT DESK PLEASE !

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Don't get discouraged- yet!! Keep at it. You'll need to get it fully stripped, cleaned up before you really can get an indication of what you've got. If it means anything, myself, and no doubt many others have rebuilt engines that initially looked as bad as yours. good luck!

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

That's about what a high mileage engine looked like, in the early '60's, when I became a mechanic. The worst one I had to clean, was 215 Chev. I was a good thing that I was young (18) and wanted to be a mechanic, real bad.

You can thank the old non-detergent oil for that mess.

In those days, "high mileage" meant, 70K. You had a hard time getting rid of a 100K car!!! Many were just junked with that kind of mileage.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

It's surprising how an engine can be oily and rusty at the same time. Lots of condensation I suppose.

I would carefully inspect all around the pan rail for cracks before launching in and trying to dismantle the top end.

I rebuilt a couple of engines that were pretty bad and you might enjoy some of the videos I made.

Crusty Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...nhHBvLs12GnGQu

Ol'59 Flatty: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...THMrri6-8w-LBI

Lots of discussions here lately about removing valves.
Lots of discussions about head studs too.

Any questions just ask.

Is the motor out of the car? Are you aware to avoid mounting the motor on a conventional engine stand via the half bellhousing?

Mart.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

I wish the last V12 Lincoln I did would have looked as good as your V8 Ford. Like Mart said pull the pan and check for cracks along the block where the pan gasket sits. Then you know if you need to go farther. So far what you've shown us is a basic rebuild with possibly a sleeve in one cylinder. Keep the pictures coming with your questions . We will be here. Tim

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

The car was likely used for mostly short trips where the engine didn't fully warm up to operating temperature. Engines used this way get sludged up bad if operated for long periods like that. The water in the cylinder could have been coolant. If it was then there is likely coolant in the pan too.

Climate of long term storage has a lot to do with condition of engine internals. A well stored car would have had less corrosion but could've still had some depending on temperature changes and relative humidity. I've seen a lot worse but the cylinder could be a candidate for resleeve. The cylinder walls on the old 221s are not all that thick. Whether it is a large bearing engine (LB) or an older poured babbitt engine will be the thing a person needs to know.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Thanks a lot everyone for all the input.

@Mart
We tried to pull the pan yesterday, but thought we knew better than the repair manual. We couldn't get the pan past those radius rod (?). We did raise the engine though. The manual tells to turn the crankshaft, but the engine is stuck. We'll give it another try tomorrow. and loosen those rods.

I'll check out your videos, thanks. So the motor is still in the car. I was hoping to get a good impression on it's state before pulling the engine out. I did get a peek after lowering the pan a bit...same rusty wet look though. Didn't check the pan rail yet. Thanks for that mounting tip....we'll keep it in mind in case we pull the engine.

The car's history isn't really clear. It spent the last 20 years in a barn in Pennsylvania. It was last registered in '66, also in Pennsylvania. It looks like they did indeed work on the engine before. Till now everything came off pretty easily. Even the rusted exhaust link pipe and the exhaust at the manifolds. We inspected the bottom of the car. Looks pretty solid, besides the obvious surface rust. The car seems complete as well. I did take a hit at the left front some point, braking the bumper bracket and bending the fender and grill a little bit. It caused the left headlight to be a bit closer to the cowling. The chassis seems straight though.

Depending on the engine being an LB engine or not and salvageable or not I'll have to decide what route to take here. It won't be a full resoration in any case, but a technical restoration and just drive it. Slight interior improvement, rust treatment on the outside and go. Maybe juice brakes, depending on it's stopping abilities.[emoji16]

Dennishttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8b792e0f7b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fa7e742a46.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...505b774fc3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4ef9e6303a.jpg

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Whatever happens, I can't imagine a scenario where the motor does not need to come out. I would advise just bite the bullet and pull it. (I'm a poet). If in doubt yank it out. (told you).

Mart.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

I'd have to agree with Mart. The condition warrants work that is much better and easier done out of the car. As was mentioned, an engine stand adapter that connects the the exhaust ports is much better than worrying about cracking the rear bell area. The casting is not all that thick on the rear end there.

The one rusty piston is likely the sticking point. Just getting the valves out is a big job and they should come out to insure serviceability. If the engine was not so internally fowled and the cylinders were all still void of corrosion, things would be different. That one is just beyond that state. Everything needs to be cleaned & checked.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Yeah, we'll probably pull the engine. I measured the bore btw, says 3.08". As far as this is accurate, the measuring caliper was a relatively cheap one.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6c8480703b.jpg

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

That's 17.5 thou over standard. Could be 15, could be 20 depending on how accurate the measuring method. Any marks on the good pistons?
standard bore is 3-1/16"

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Isnt std 3.087?

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

It would 3 1/16" or 3.0625. If it was previouy overhauled with a bore job then the oversize should be on top of the pistons.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Its hard to tell from the pics but most of those engines had sleeves. The easiest way to work that bad cyl may be to break the piston out driving from below, worst case cutting the rod into, then -putting a sleeve in that cyl bored to match what you bore the other cyl's. As wore as the engine is I would suspect it will need boring all cyls.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Thanks . It seems like Im losing it . One foot in front of the other .
Gary

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

I think the tin can sleeves came later but it depends on which block it has. The 21-stud block doesn't have as much room for sleeves as the 24-stud blocks.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Does it have water pump block off plates on the block just below the head mounted water pumps?

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

99% sure it doesn't. Lots of mud and cr@p there, but at first glance I didn't see a plate and bolts.

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Well, we didn't manage to get the oil pan off. The engine is stuck, so we couldn't turn the crankshaft to clear the pan inside. So, the unevitable is next....taking the engine out.

I cleaned a small piece of the oil pan rail, but didn't see any cracks (yet).

I did get a peek inside though. Same rusty appearance. I was able to measure the distance between the most rear visible studs. If I'm correct, that's the rear main bearing? Measures around 3 1/4".

So am I looking at an LB engine!?[emoji850]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...61f0ecda4d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a376aa12cd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...91edac5345.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9118459c34.jpg

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Regarding that 3.08 measurement.... It depends on how that was obtained. If he measured BELOW the ridge, it likely just indicates a worn cylinder, based on standard bore. If he measured the diameter ON the ridge, then the 'puzzle' indicated in the previous posts still applies. (Opinion) In any event... I see a lot of work, and a fixable engine. And, if an LB, in my opinion, I'd go for it. (I'm prejudiced, I have some good memories with an LB.)

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Don't forget how hard it is to find rod bearings, and how expensive they are!

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

3 1/4" would be LB block.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Believe me, when I can 'start 'em in the field' and drive them away, that is my favorite kind of old truck adventure. I have pulled that off maybe six times in 50 years of picking up old fords. Those with mechanical brakes were extra fun because you actually could start driving them as is (if one happens to live on the back side of a rural island). BUT.... your engine is not a candidate for that particular brand of fun. They are sooo difficult to work in in the vehicle and sooo nice on a stand. Do yourself a favor and pull that bad tooth out. It will feel much better after that!

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Ok, working towards the inevitable...taking the engine out. We removed the grill and radiator as well as the passenger toe board and the trans cover plate. Next will be the shifter and clutch linkage.

Any tips/pointers for getting the engine and trans out? Where is the (approx.) center of gravity of the engine+trans? Might help in lifting... Thanks.

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Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

Somewhere near here.

Re: '36 221 - rebuildable??
 

[emoji106]

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