Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

47 Coupe. 59A. Car ran fine until a no start issue. Would then start intermittently but then, nothing. After checking ignition, coil, fuel etc., have both spark and fuel. Ran compression test on all cylinders. All cylinders are consistent.. 30psi ! Guessing that all rings didn't stick at once and didn't burn all the valves. Could failure of the timing gear cause this and how difficult to replace?? Going to change the oil and look for evidence. I don't have engine build specs but based on all the info I have from previous owner, looks like 59A built to stock specs. Thanks for any helpful input.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Basic idea is that if you have fuel (Double check this please, it has got me a could times),
and you have sparky at the plugs, and you have compression which it soulnd like you have. Then in theroy it should run maybe not well but it should pop!
Next would timing tio get it running right.
You mention coil and spark. Do you have spark at the points? Do you have spark at the plugs? Both of these have stopped me in my starting tracks over the years also.
Fuel, good flow into the carb?? Or the opposite, could the carb be flooding the engine?
I just had one do that on my fork lift. The carb needed cleaned due to dirt in the tank and lines. Had to pull the carb., clean the openings and it started right up.
I dont think you have a timing gear problem. If it was gone you would not have even compression in all cylinders. You have that. You have compression. Check that one off the list. Go back to fuel and sparky and when those are in working order she will fire right up. Your almost there! Let us know.
Regards,
Chris

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

GAR64,
Didnt we talk several years ago, about a really nice 56 Ford Victoria you had?
Regards,
Chris

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I have not pulled the distributor but I know I have spark at the plugs so I would expect that spark is not the issue. Carb seems fine and even swapped it out to check. Isn't 30 psi too low for it to run?

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Yes Sugarmaker. I sold the 56 to a guy in New Zealand.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Consistent spark at the plugs would indicate the timing gear is rotating.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

If only 30 psi something is very wrong. Check it with a different gauge to verify your readings. I once pulled the heads on an engine due to no compression only to realize gauge crapped out. If readings are right it probably is why engine won't start.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

If it was one cylinder, I would think rings, valve etc. I don’t know what the compression was when it was running fine but all cylinders had the same problem all at once?

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

A cylinder leak down test will tell you what's wrong.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I’m asking if your distributor could have moved and now it’s out of time. You would still have spark. Good luck.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Squirt some light oil in all the cylinders and check the compression again if you didn’t do it when you did the initial check.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

On any of the pre 1949 - 1953 flatheads, the distributor used an offset T-Slot to drive it - so it really couldn't be installed completely out of time. This is unless you attempted to force it in at 180 degrees out and muscled the bolts in. When you do this and turn the engine over, it can break the distributor casting.

Being completely out of time is normally not a situation . . . unless the cam gear disintegrated - then both the valves and the ignition will be totally off.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

A little more information on the cam gear is in order. If it's a recently purchased foreign made unit, they have a habit of disintegrating in 7-8000 miles. An old fiber timing gear may also be suspect, which is why I now only use aluminum timing gears.

Also, the 30 lbs compression on all of the cylinders raises doubt in my mind; did you check all of them, or just a few?

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

if you have 30 lbs at all the cyls the camshaft gear is at fault

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

If using early, press on cam gear and camshaft, [which is doubtful as you say it's a 59A], if the camgear slips on the camshaft, you'll still have spark,[late] but little compression...

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

The timing gear and plate won't enter the oil pan. So no worries on stuff in the oil.


Sounds like you are on the right path though.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I appreciate all the input. I was told by someone else that the design of the distributor kind of rules out the timing being way off. I have only owned the car for a year. It ran well. Smooth. no smoke. I believe the engine was done many tears ago and I do not have details such as miles or specific parts. The car was restored to stock specs based on discussion with previous owner. After driving one day, I had trouble restarting. It did start a few more times with difficulty but then nothing. Hard to believe all cylinders developed an issue at once. Was thinking maybe a timing gear although some say I would not be getting spark, which I am. When you mention cam gear are you referring to the timing gear or something else? I would think a fiber gear would just fall apart if damaged but an aluminum one may skip a tooth or semi fail. Again, I guess the cylinders may all be bad but doesn't seem likely. Not sure what to try next.Want to do all I can before digging into the engine. Thanks for the help. I enjoy this site.

greg

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Greg, I believe at this point, if it were me, I'd remove the timing gear cover and look at the camshaft gear. The reproduction gears are total poopy and are known to break.
Gosh, if for no other reason than peace of mind, inspect that gear.

Removing that front cover is actually much easier than you might be imagining.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Kube, guess that will be my next move. How difficult is it to replace the gear?

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

If it's a press on gear, it can be a bit troublesome. If it's a bolt on gear, it's a simple task.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Given that you mentioned it being a 59A, then it should have a bolt on gear . . . but one never knows the history of these engines.

When you pull the distributor, you'll be able to figure out what type of gear it has.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Well, if it's the regular 59A two bolt distributor, and a camshaft with a press on gear, the distributor will be spaced out from timing cover about 3/8".

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

ItÂ’s a 59 AB. Two bolt distributor. The service manual I have shows bolt on cam gear but doesnÂ’t say if fiber gear. DoesnÂ’t look to difficult. CanÂ’t think of anything else to check that could cause low compression in all cylinders.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

As was said earlier, try a different compression tester. ;)
Also, Make sure you hold the carb linkage open, so it
can suck plenty of air into all the cylinders as you are
testing compression.




.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

A new compression tester is a good idea. Rule out the simple stuff first.



On a flathead a press on cam gear can slip, rarely. Not impossible. It won't skip a tooth as its a gear on gear timing unlike later chain. Or not.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I’d do a leak down test, it will confirm you have good compression, leaky valves or make sure the valves are opening as you rotate the engine. Hopefully not a wiped cam.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I am a old foolish man that plays with engines of various types. Gar64,
Tell me about the last time the engine ran? I have never been around a engine where the cam gear went south. I would assume this makes a pretty good racket as the engine slows to a stop?? Am I missing something?
Ok for grins lets say the cam gear is gone. Cam still has lobes on it right? They move the lifters to open the valves. Would all the valves be all open? Seems like by chance one set of valves might be closed and a compression gage might read something different (maybe higher) in that cylinder? I shoudn't say any thing not a engine builder. I dont even own a compression tester other than my thumb!
Probably didnt help here. Sorry.
Regards,
Chris

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

I lost a cam gear in an SBC about 30 years ago. The engine was running perfectly as I pulled up to a stop sign. When I pushed on the gas to take off, the engine wasn't running. When I tried to start it, it made a clattering noise, but wouldn't start. When I got it home and pulled a rocker arm cover, half the pushrods were bent. When I pulled it apart, the timing gear was completely stripped of all of it's teeth. (These gears were an aluminum base with fiber teeth bonded on.)

It's probably different with a flathead with no timing chain, but I thought it was interesting that the gear stripped and I didn't even know it when it happened. It was only when I tried to restart it that I became aware of a problem.

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Make sure the air valve in the compression tester is the correct one they are not the same as a tire valve uses. Using a standard valve doesn't work.


Ronnie

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Something to try ,remove # one spark plug and distributor cap mark opposite no one terminal on the distributor body ,with thumb over the spark plug hole roll the starter when it comes up to # one it should blow your thumb of,.Then observe were the rotor is should be just past the mark ,if the teeth are gone it will be way of ,check your plugs I was called out for this same problem this week ,smoker oily motor Fuel contamination ,

Re: Flathead Timing Gear Failure?
 

Back in the mid '60s I had a 52 Merc flathead in my car and I am pretty sure the cam gear failed in it. I was driving about 35 mph and all of a sudden there was a noise and the engine quit running and it sounded like the engine had no compression as it coasted to a stop. it was just pumping air out whatever valves were open and when I tried to restart it, it cranked like it had no compression, just a whirr sound. It was really a pretty quiet failure as I remember. Nothing like throwing a rod in a 352 FE engine, now that makes a racket.

At the time I was planning to repower my car with a SBF, so the failure initiated work on that conversion. I had a date with Uncle Sam, so I did not tear the flathead apart to confirm the actual failure.