Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Need to replace the master cylinder on my '55 Ford. Keeping stock drum brakes. Is there any particular late '60s-early '70s dual chamber MC for drum brakes that someone can recommend that you have used in this application? I think dual chamber MCs became standard on everything around '66 or '67. I remember a '69 Dodge A-100 van and a '72 Ford pickup I had both had dual chamber MC, drum brakes all around, and no power booster. Wondering if one of those might work, or something for a mid-size Ford car of that vintage? I can do the brake line plumbing to separate front and rear brakes. I know Rambler was the first to have that feature in the early '60s.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

I would think a 70's Mustang would work. just make sure bore is same diameter. If you have a non-power M/C now, stick with non-power M/C as the pocket in the cylinders are different between power and non-power.I don't know why a dual M/C for disc in the front wouldn't work if that's all you can find. may want to add a 10# residual in the front(disc take 2#)as some dual drum/disc M/c's have internal residual valves (2# &10#) and would have wrong RPV for front drums

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

The one we have used over the years in the HAMB 1952-59 Ford Group is the Autozone M1485 this is a rebuild unit,so why a rebuilt you ask ? A lot of these are USA made Bendix or Raybestos castings which are better than the offshore new ones made in India or China if they have a few in stock look for the Bendix on the underside. This is listed for 1967-68 Mustangs with drum brakes. Here is a NOS one so you can compare. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-67-70-F...-/402045990606 WARNING ! Do Not use the pushrod that comes with some of these, you should use your stock 1952-56 push rod. The push rod that comes with some of these has a clip that will lock it in place,removing one is pure Hell you can also toss that clip off the end too.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

A #2 RPV (Residual Pressure Valve) is used only on a DISC BRAKE CIRCUIT if the MC is located under the front caliper, say a 56 F100. It prevents fluid drain-back from the caliper to the MC at rest leading to a spongy pedal.

If you buy a late replacement MC, it will not likely have #10 RPV(s) installed. You then must plumb in inline RPV's to both circuits..

Differing bore sizes and fluid pressure/volume.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

AMEN!

BTW - That clip is available and has an important function.

If I were to do a conversion today, I would find a correct take-off and have it sleeved/rebuilt. The RPV's used to come in the FORD rebuild kits.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Good info, thanks!

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Regarding the PB MC, the main difference, is in the diameter of the piston. On most Ford's, up until at least '70, the non PB unit, had a 1" piston, the PB, had 7/8".

The smaller piston, will give you higher pressure, to the wheel cylinders but, with a little more brake pedal travel.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Make sure you will have sufficient pedal travel to completely bottom out the piston(s) in the master cylinder. Check before adding the brake fluid.

When you lose fluid/pressure on one side of a dual master cylinder the pedal will go almost completely to the floor before any braking action occurs. If the linkage is not engineered right, the pedal may hit the floor before the piston in the master cylinder travels far enough to apply the brakes.
When all is buttoned up and bled, crack a bleeder screw loose on a rear wheel cylinder and see if you can stop (don't do this in the garage in front of your work bench!). Close the rear bleeder and repeat on the fronts. Rebleed if necessary.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

1967 Fairlanes also had dual master cylinder drum brakes. Except the GT that had disc fronts.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

It sounds like you're getting some solid leads, Lamar. I put a dual reservoir on my '54 wagon with drum brakes maybe 8-10 years ago. I don't remember where I got it, or if the '54 application will work for '55, but if you strike out on your leads, pm me and I'll try and track down the receipt, which I'm pretty sure I still have. I won't bother looking until you need the info, though.


I know I bought it as something that was marketed as an upgrade to 2 reservoir for '54 Fords, so it wasn't some crap shoot engineering effort. It's worked good over the years.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

The period DUAL RESERVOIR MC(s) you want are 1967-1973 FORD INTERMEDIATE (FAIRLANE-MUSTANG).

DRUM/DRUM and DISC/DRUM are included for availability I had the chart (from the 1965/1972 MPC), that shows application, manual/power and bore size. The text would also include info regarding the valving used in the period.

I have a current computer problem(s) and will post that info as soon as I can.

If you buy a current production replacement MC, it will most likely not have the RPV(s) in the outlet circuits. You will have to plumb inline valves.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Lamar, I got your message, but don't think my messages are getting back to you. I can't find my receipt, but will take a pic of what I've got and send it to you. I'd bet KULTULZ's recommendation is the way to go. He's kinda the man around here. Nevertheless, I'll get a pic of what I've got to you, if I can.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Just a warning, beware of these so-called disc brake changeover vendors. Few seem to have full comprehension and now are supplying off-shore parts.

Case in point, this individual went to an EvilBay vendor with a four wheel manual drum pickup and talked to the guy. Said he wanted power dual reservoir drum for now but would like to add front disc later.

Below are photos of what he was sold and installed-

Now he has to can it and start over.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

What style residual pressure valves (rpv’s) are you using?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

All he has to do is switch the lines going into the combo valve, so the secondary (smaller) rear brake M/C chamber goes between the prop valve adjuster and pressure switch, and the larger front M/C chamber goes to the front of the pressure switch with the two output ports. When front discs are installed, removal of the red 10 lb residual is all that's needed.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Why would one install an ADJUSTABLE BRAKING BIAS VALVE on a four wheel drum application? All he wanted was a split reservoir w/ booster. Did the vendor a$$-u-me the secondary circuit has an internal RPV? What about MC bore size?

All replacement MC's for that period do not include RPV(s) as later applications (1974- ) did not use an RPV and the deletion reduces inventory.

You see value in what he was sold? You would modify yours or a customers car in such a manner?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

KULTULZ,
You're right. I somehow confused this thread with one where front discs were going to sometime replace the drums. My bad! :o

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

You're OK ...

The buyer stated to the vendor that he was considering a disc upgrade in the future ($$$) and for now only wanted a boosted split system and instead of the vendor supplying only the correct drum system upgrade sold him a system which is totally unsafe.

HEY! Anytime you see or feel I have posted something incorrect, feel free to correct. I am not proud and learn something new everyday even on older vehicles.

I was starting to have self-doubt there.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Sorry about that.

Inline (after MC) valves. They should be mounted as near the MC as possible.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

I have to disagree with you on the system being totally unsafe. The only thing unsafe was the incorrect M/C plumbing, as I pointed out earlier. I would have also included an adjustable proportioning valve with the intent to upgrade the front drums to discs, minimizing additional plumbing changes and costs later on.

As far as the proportioning valve, turning the knob CW to fully open the valve raises the split point about 1000-1200 psi, well above the normal drum brake operating pressures-in effect bypassing any proportioning to the rear drums.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

We will have to agree to disagree.

No foul, no harm.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Seems like this has gotten a bit off track with responses, and since you are sticking with a drum to drum master cylinder this video may give you a few pointers being that the Mustang drum/drum master is used in our 50's Fords. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeBDLoGQ79Q&t=71s I love this tool ! https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-...der-92924.html So when I did my brakes on my '54 it was about 108 outside in Phoenix and the garage fridge had cold PBR I somehow forgot to do the bench bleed so I thought I would turn on my compressor hook up the tool and give it a shot starting with the passenger side rear bleeder then moving to the drivers side rear and guess what ? No air and a firm pedal in less than 10 minutes went ahead and did the fronts just because all the wheels cylinders were all new and still no air and a firm pedal. A lot of guys will also convert the old Ford troublesome brake sender to a GM style that works off the pedal by fabricating a simple bracket check the 1952-59 Ford Social Group for pictures of those from the members.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

How has this thread gotten off-track in your opinion?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

When you start throwing prop valves and residuals into the mix which he doesn't need with a manual dual master for drums it can get confusing for some,just saying. Sometimes the KISS method is best.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

What the insertion of that reference was intended to do is warn people of how they can be taken advantage of by unscrupulous and/or un-knowledgeable vendors.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Very simple works for me. There is no reason for a 65 year old car to have a proportioning valve, a basic brass block does the trick.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Are you referring to DRUM/DRUM or DISC/DRUM?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Drum-drum for sure. I used a distribution block from Summit with my front disc swap. It has a rear bias adjuster, which I have never had to touch. It runs wide open.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

You are referring to what type of 'rear bias adjuster'?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Similar to this one from Summit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-...8AAOSwmtZfKZiw

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Now wait a minute ...

First you say there is no need for a PPV on a car (DRUM/DRUM I a$$-u-me), then you state you only used a distribution block.

Now you are saying you are using an ADJ BIAS VALVE on your DRUM/DRUM fully opened?

You have a DRUM/DRUM DUAL RESERVOIR MC upgrade?

The last photo below is a FORD (Weatherhead) free-standing PDV (Pressure Differential Valve/Distribution Block of the seventies period (no PROPORTIONING/METERING VALVE). If you do not want the WARNING LAMP, don't use the circuit.

EDIT - ONE MORE TIME


Are you saying you have an early disc/drum upgrade with no valving on the street?

You know, this why SEMA has to continually fight the FEDS who want to put a stop to owner repair/modifications.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

He said it was wide open

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

If you want the skinny on what master to use, go to the experts make and sell conversion parts. Try Engineered Components Inc (ECI) in Conn. for advice. They make all kinds of kits for brake conversions.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Who's he and what is wide open?

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Just what is needed, another kit assembler offering GM components for a FORD. Wonder how much of it is off-shore?

That CORVETTE MC goes well with the INTERSTATE BATTERY and STANT radiator cap.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

SOURCE - https://www.sundevilauto.com/what-do...for-my-brakes/

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

While most of the above info on proportioning valves is correct, the actual operation is not. Fluid is never "blocked", but is delivered based on the percentage value of the valve once the "crack point" pressure is exceeded.


As for drum brakes, some proportioning could have preceded disc brakes if the earlier D.O.T. brake performance requirements had been much stricter, like those starting in the mid '70s.


A good example of the possible need for a drum prop valve is when using late duo-servo rear drum brakes with obsolete non-servo front drums, something done often with old (pre-'49) Fords.

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Can we agree on restricted flow as pressure increases at the knee point?

GM did use a PPV on some all drum applications. Makes perfect sense to me. But ABS has changed all of this.

What I am trying to point out is that the ill-conceived notion that an ADJ PPV will correct all situations. That is why they are not approved for the street. Their function is race car only.

Some of these so-called "BRAKE KIT SELLERS" are dangerous (IMO).

INFO SOURCE BELOW - https://www.brakes-shop.com/brakeped...tioning-valves

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

^^^

Re: Dual chamber master cylinder for drum brakes
 

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/hamb/...s/viewpost.gif
Can we agree on restricted flow as pressure increases at the knee point?

No. The pressure is reduced to a percentage of master cylinder output. Has nothing to do with flow.

- So a restriction in a hydraulic system will not reduce flow?

What I am trying to point out is that the ill-conceived notion that an ADJ PPV will correct all situations. That is why they are not approved for the street. Their function is race car only.

Using an ADJ PPV may not correct all situations, but is a better alternative to a fixed value PPV designed for an entirely different vehicle and/or brake system.

- You would have to figure out the newly modified braking systems and then apply a PPV to that. The best method is to study an original application and not fall for RACE CAR ONLY SYSTEMS.

ADJ K/H PPVs were used on some mid-'60s Lincolns/T-Birds

- Please give me an exact example. News to me.

Some of these so-called "BRAKE KIT SELLERS" are dangerous (IMO).

Most have improved their "tech" over the years, although a couple still need improvement.

What's more troubling to me is the lack of basic brake system knowledge obvious on most forums, especially dual systems, that have been around for almost 60 years!

- AGREED!

- And most of the advice given is even more puzzling and dangerous.