Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I know we have beat this to death on other threads but thought I would post couple pictures of how these off shore lifters fail .

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I think it's nice of you to remind folks the common issues with these. Some folks may not have seen previous threads to this regard.
I am fortunate to have access to a hardness (Rockwell) tester.
The recent set I'd tested (form Red's) found three of sixteen very soft (junk) . They would not have held up for very long whatsoever.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

What did Red's say?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

It's specifically for this reason we use/sell ONLY the original Johnson tappets, today they come from "Topline", the same mfr still as the old days!

I have trouble keeping these in stock all the time we sell so many.

I would just add a bit more info here while we're on the lifter subject. It's extremely important to use the proper break-in lube, we use ONLY "moly" lube here, on the lobes and the lifter faces. After the initial break-in it's also necessary to run some higher-end oil, not the kind you find in the typical Walmart type stores?

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a few shots of the lifters and the lube. We just recently began supplying a small container of the lube with every 16 lifters!

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I have to replace these lifters so the question is who’s .

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Is there any damage to the cam lobes with the effected lifters?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Looks like you missed Gary's post by a minute.. as above ^^^^

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

These (the ones that 3 of 16 were dead soft) were Johnson brand from red's.
Do you test the ones you use?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Hi Kub', would have to contact Paul at "Topline" and ask if they happen to supply Reds with lifters?? I can state with certainty that both Comp Cams and Isky get their Flathead lifters from "Topline".

Haven't had one single "bad" lifter so far from "Topline" so no real reason to check them. First time I have an issue that would change things really quick!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I did just check Reds website, really doesn't state original "Johnson" lifters, it does however say Johnson "style" lifters . We've been warning customers for years now about buying/using Johnson "style" lifters. The few I've had come in here (supplied by customers) were definitely "off-shore".

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I used to buy my lifters from Collens & Lery in BP conn. One day I went into the shop and ordered a set. The counterman said"That will be 20 dollars" I said" at this rate they'll be 50 dollars before you know it". They had bee $12.50 set
I believe gary's lifters are the same as the originals, the only difference is the value of the money????????

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

GOSFAST: I still have the old box my original Johnson lifters came in in 1970. Two wrenches
were included. Next time you order lifters from "Topline" please inquire as to whether they were formerly "Wolverine". Just curious. Would be neat to know. Is "Topline" located at the old Wolverine address or city?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Why even fool with adjustables? Ford didn't use them, and original lifters rarely fail and weight a lot less.

For me I can grind valves for non adjustables much quicker than I can adjust those pesky adjustables.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

No damage to cam (Max 1) check valve spring pressure seems good.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Back in the '80's Wolverine owned what is now "Topline", we had a "WD" with them for years. The entire conglomerate was owned by "The Sherlin Corp", at one point Crane Cams owned it all also!

We became good friends with Harry Krummery, the engineer at the Blue-Racer division of Wolverine! It's all a really long story!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I put a couple shots below here of the catalog showing the Flathead lifter number, VT-2032, even back then we were buying the lifters by the trays, 92 to a tray, and the original "Johnson" tappet catalog! Hope you can make it out! These lifters back in 1994 cost us $3.70/ea. I still have much inventory on the shelf from them including the aluminum cam gears, part #TG-2702.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Are you sure those solid body lifters are off shore? Reason I ask the only off shore lifters I have seen are hollow copies of the Johnson lifter. The solid lifters I recall were US made. Anyone else know for sure if the solid lifters are offshore?
Ronnieroadster

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

GOESFAST, Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to answer my question. I feel better now, knowing Topline is an excellent replacement.

I don't remember if the original "Johnsons" were flat or did they have a slight crown.
Are the Topline lifters flat or crowned? I do still have an old set of Johnsons lifters that are ground with a slight radius. Is that good, bad or desirable only with certain cams?

Thanks, Jim in FL

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Ronnieroadster
Don’t know either way who’s lifters they are . When I saw the lifter face and after checking spring tension I draw to a fast conclusion “My bad “
I don’t see any sign of any wear on the cam lobe .
This lifters is flat on top , I thought they should have a slight dome , doesn’t that create The lifter to spin or is it the cam lobe grind that make the lifter spin .


Hell I don’t know just a old Harley Guy having fun with these Flathead

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

They've always had the "crown" on the lifter face, it helps with two things, first, it helps to keep the lifters "spinning" for a constant oil supply and second, it helps keep the cam running into the unit. Sort of "threading" it into the block!

They also have the a radius on the adjusting nuts as well where they contact the valve stem. This is most likely done to keep the point-of-contact between the stems and the adjusting nuts to a minimum, makes it less important where "alignment" would be an issue??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On side note almost all cam lobes are ground with a taper to correspond with the lifter radius! Again, this keeps everything "spinning" so to speak! The only lifters (I believe) without a radius were used on the old "Nailheads"?? One of the cam guys up here may know for sure? This photo from Isky's catalog may help understand what's occurring?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Yes your correct the lifters do have a slight crown/radius to them. If you hold a set of new lifters face to face with light behind them you can see the radius. The good quality original lifters from Johnson even if used will have the radius. However considering the reduction and eventually the elimination of Zinc additives in most brands of engine oils since the 80's lifter wear like the set you have will happen. Extremely worn lifters will be flat when held face to face.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I have a brand new set of off shore made hollow lifters in the shop now for refacing. This customer does this routinely. They come TAPERED, NOT radiused. That means they are cone shaped. NOT spherical like a ball. He just does not trust the original surface finish.

And yes the early Isky lifters were spherical. He soon found that didn't work though. The later ones were tapered.
The spherical ones would trap no oil film because the contact area was too small. That also resulted in extremely high contact pressure.

Very early Ford lifters were flat. Later they ground them on a 96 inch radius which is close enough to tapered that they trapped a boundry layer of oil and worked ok.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

This is a education and can’t thank everyone enough for taking the time to post a worth of knowledge .

The old Harley all had fixed Solid roller lifter . I beat one of you Hot Rod Flathead builder must Run something like that .
Again I’m just an old retired Iron Worker from NYC having fun learning from a bunch of very knowledgeable guys

Thanks again

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I have a new set of Bob Drake adjustable lifters and presume that they fall in to the 'off shore' category? I suppose I should trash these as not suitable for the job then? Your input welcomed as I have been accumulating parts for a 99A factory relieved block and a 4" Merc crank.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Perhaps you may be able to have a hardness test carried out to assist with your
decission.
Phil NZ

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

We run roller followers in our dragster, they have done a few seasons and still look like new.
Lawrie

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Merc42 test like Phil said .

Laurie roller lifters in a ford flathead nice ...

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

We also have them in a holden 202
They work well, no link bar or that type of stuff.
Lawrie

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Again, what’s wrong with original non adjustable lifters??

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Sealed Power makes and sells the heavier solid adjustables, last set I bought said Made in USA and "each lifter hardness tested". They looked like quality parts.

On the OP's lifters, I have to wonder if they'd pass a hardness test, but are too soft under a thin layer of hardened metal at the surface? No telling what alloy the Chinese use.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

We could try asking the American company who is having them built to their specifications.:rolleyes:

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I can think of one reason to have the adjustables, in the event of a "ticking" lifter (it can happen even with the "fixed" lifters) it becomes much easier to adjust the noise out??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. To fix a ticking valve with a non-adjustable lifter is a major repair, this is just my own take on it? I am aware of the "thousands" that were running around back when, but do I prefer the option!

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Understand.. But I would imagine is the valves are ground properly, there would never be a chance of a ticking lifter. For me they are easier with the right tools than adjustables.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I'm not an engine builder, but if you do get a "tick" with a non-adjustable lifter, wouldn't it be due to improper installation? And if it happens "down the road", wouldn't it be a sign of something going wrong in the valve train?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

In looking at the lifters that you show - they appear to be "solid", not the hollow re-pop ones that we've all seen from China. So - they are not necessarily from China, they can be on-shore and they may have wear issues for a variety of reasons ---> hardness, break-in, the way the cam was ground, oil-used, etc..

Also, given that your cam was wearing into those lifters, the profile is probably not correct anymore (on the nose of each lobe), so you may experience the same problem the "next go round". Personally, I would not put new lifters on a cam that previously had that sort of wear pattern on the lifters you show. I'd have the cam checked out.

There is really no way to know what caused your specific issue.. Do you know who manufactured the lifters? Also, who manufactured the cam and were they both installed at the same time?

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Curious if the OP could put a couple "close-up" shots of the "tops" of the lifters where the valve stems reside? I have some used adjustable lifters here that are "telling me a story" so to speak!

I see a potential issue with the non "Johnson" tappets that may be causing many of the failures we're seeing, not 100% sure, but I see a definite "design-flaw" in the off-shore pieces! It was actually mentioned to me a while back by my friend Paul over at "Topline"!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'll have more on this subject if the OP can get that shot or two of the tops!

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I dont/Wont use adjustables but two local flathead engine builders buy all their parts from us at the shop. I have let them try different brands and the ones they liked the most and the ones we stock are Made in Turkey.... And believe me if you saw what the outside of their Building in turkey looked like, you'd spit your lunch out.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

No history on the motor but I will take your advise and see if I can have someone check the Cam (max 1)
Cant put me finder on this build , someone spent a lot of money with all the machine work , soup to nuts but didn’t clean out the coolant system .
Everything is brand new inside with only a dusting inside the motor. I’ve done some quick numbers and everything looks good.
The motor was overheating (I’m told) so I pressure tested both sides and held 20 lbs over night .

Now the Cam either the cam wasn’t dialed in or it’s dead nuts on . I will know soon after it’s cleaned I’m going to mock it up .

I will post some more pictures tonight

Thank you everyone for taking the time to post

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Nothing....Try turning 8100 with adjustables in a race engine.

Not too much wrong with adjustables for a mild street engine that willl never see 4000 rpm, EXCEPT for a couple of things these days. That is the quality of the holllow ones and weight of the solid ones.

Most people building flatheads these days are doing mild street engines and have been brainwashed by the media that you need adjustable lifters to go fast.
The biggest selling point for adjustables is, they can be installed by anyone in their back yard with no special tools other than a common nail. There are very few shops left that have the tools and the knowledge to install stock lifters any more. In fact, there are very few shops doing flathead Ford engines any more.

Just for the record, stock lifters can be adjusted in HALF the time it takes to do a set of adjustables and the "ticking" argument is like saying, the beer supply is going to run out. Sells lots of lifters though.

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

Pete, Thanks.. All this talk about everyone using only adjustable lifters made me wonder

I agree that once I was schooled and acquired the old trick tools for the job, I can do a set of non adjustables in less than a hour, and I'm not building these things every day or week like you guys. Adjustables always take me longer and many cuss words are said when using them.... for me anyways...

After two bad experiences I'll NEVER use adjustables again, and not have to worry about them loosening up..

Re: Off shore adjustable lifters
 

I think I read a while back on the H.A.M.B. that they do lifter restoration here maybe they offer a hardening process maybe call and ask https://www.deltacam.com/