FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

PREFACE: Forgive me, for I have sinned! Twenty-four hours ago, I posted this thread under a dumb, ill-thought-out title. In one day's time, and given the large amount of difficult-to-find information contained herein, only 110 folks have even taken a peek (with ONE reply), whereas the "Engine Paint" thread has garnered three times the viewing. So, I have learned a HUGE lesson. Continuing-on...NEW title, but... "Second verse, same as the first". After this, I will bore y'all NO MORE! :rolleyes:
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1939-1948 FORD/MERC Wheelbases, Torque TUBES, Front WISHBONES
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FORD Wheelbase Dimensions:


1939-1940...…..112"


1941-1948...…..114"
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MERCURY Wheelbase Dimensions:


1939-1940...…..116"


1941-1948...…..118"



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Karl Wescott has been so kind as to send his otherwise-unobtainable dimensional prints depicting the first iteration of the shorter Mercurys (1939-1940) along with their comparable year Fords, as well as the subsequent longer wheelbase Mercurys (1941-1948) and their comparable year Fords. The differences are MANY between the Fords and Mercs.
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1939-1940 Ford & Mercury

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.ne...7d35/large.jpg




https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...1&d=1591715164
1939-1940 MERCURY

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1941-1948 Ford & Mercury


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...2&d=1591715164


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...3&d=1591715174


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Some FORD vs MERCURY Facts:


1939 and 1940 Mercurys had their own unique BODIES.


1941-1948 Mercurys began sharing common BODIES with Ford cars.


Mercury Wheelbase dimensions ALWAYS exceeded Ford Wheelbase dimensions in any given model year by 4" during the 1939-1948 era.


Fords and Mercurys utilized FOUR different wheelbase dimensions throughout the 1939-1948 I-Beam and Torque Tube era....note above!


5"-Wide wheels were available for MERCURY at least in 1941.


The "ODDBALL" one-piece Mercury driveshaft/pinion lasted ONLY 1939 and 1940.


Ford and Mercury REAR axle assembly WIDTHS are the same for like model years, as suggested by axle shaft part number comparisons, Ford/Merc.




1939-1942 Ford & Mercury SERIAL Numbers were issued independently of one another, actually based on full-size V8 engine cubic inch ratings. One should remember that transmission/engine assemblies were initially stamped with a serial number when produced, then distributed to vehicle assembly facilities. Upon the assembly's installation into a new vehicle, the serial number stamped on the transmission was hand-stamped into the vehicle frame rail. Thus, a NEW Ford or Mercury was born.


1946-1948 Ford & Mercury engines became identical cubic inch-wise and in horsepower rating. Since the 1942 Mercury engine was of a larger 239 cu. in. displacement (Ford was 221 cu. in.), Mercury's numbering system began with a "99A-" prefix (Ford prefix was still "18-"). After the War in 1946, 239 cubic inches (a Mercury holdover) was standard in Fords and Mercurys. ALL engines then received the "99A-" serial number prefix. Thusly, during 1946-1948 production years, ALL Fords and Mercurys SHARE a COMMON prefix in their automobile serial numbers. You cannot distinguish between Ford or Mercury by serial number during 1946-1948 production.
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I-BEAM Axles:


1939-1941 Fords & Mercurys shared "78-3010-A" I-beam axles.


1942-1948 Fords & Mercurys shared "21A-3010" I-beam axles.
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Front WISHBONES:


Four different Wishbones were used on Fords & Mercs, 1939-1948


1939-1940 Ford......"78A-3405"


1941 Ford...………..…"11A-3405"


1942-1948 Ford......"21A-3405"
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1939-1940 Merc...…"99A-3405"


1941 Mercury...…...."11A-3405"


1942-1948 Merc...…"21A-3405"


NOTE: 1942-1948 Ford & Merc used SAME "21A-" Wishbone, but Mercury's 4"-longer wheelbase necessitated the use of a 4" wishbone ball adapter/extender which bolted into Merc frame....picture below!




http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=...rd%20Barn&txt=

I discovered one more interesting measurement comparison between a 1939 FORD and a 1939 MERC Wishbone. Note that '39 & '40 MERC use Wishbone "99A-3405". '39 and '40 FORD use Wishbone "78A-3405". rockflameasured between the center of his '39 MERC wishbone ball, straight forward to the center of his I-beam axle.....40-3/4". Kube measured between the center of a '39 FORD wishbone ball, straight forward to the center of his I-beam axle.....40-3/8". For some reason, MERC in 1939 decided they needed a "99A-" wishbone that placed the axle 3/8" farther forward than a "78A-" FORD wishbone would have.
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Torque TUBES:


1939-1940 FORD T-Tube.....70"


1941-1948 FORD T-Tube.....72"


1939-1940 MERC T-Tube.....73-3/4" (approx.)


1941-1948 MERC T-Tube.....72" (Update)


'39-'40 Mercury MERC T-Tube NOTE: rockfla had a difficult time measuring the exact length of his '39 Merc T-Tube as the forward end of the T-Tube is very confined above the crossmember, plus the T-Tube bell is obscured by the clamshell assembly. Nevertheless, '39-'40 Merc T-Tube is ALMOST 4" longer than Ford counterpart.


The '39-'40 Merc T-Tubes ARE in fact, constructed with what appears to be a 14-15 inch sleeve in the center.....possibly a two-piece, fabricated tube. Reason unknown!
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Many other differences between Fords & Mercs left to verify. This compilation constitutes a concerted beginning.


1941-1948 MERCURY T-Tube dimensions are still unknown to this document.


MANY Thanks to: "rockfla", "JSeery", "rotorwrench", "Kube", "deuce_roadster", "Mac VanPelt Informational Website", "35ragtop", Karl Westcott, and probably others I'm sure, in preparation of this compilation!


Dick D (DD)

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Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

I for one have copied and pasted it for my Ford & Mercury stuff archives!!!! Thanks for all the 411 Coopman!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Well done V-8. I think it's golden.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

I do find the differences interesting. Is the frame stretched out in front of firewall and engine pushed 4 inches forward along with the longer hood and fenders or is it in the main body? Longer body on 39 and 40 and then longer front on 41 to 48? Just curious.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

I honestly don't believe it's as simple as you state above, especially to form a definitive answer, but yeah....SOMETHING like that! I'm still scratchin' my butt trying to wrap my understanding around ALL of this in it's entirety. Look carefully at the FRONT motor mount extensions (as well as other details) on that chassis picture. That is a '41-'48 frame. DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Hey Brudda, Don't give up on us now. I for one always appreciate the knowledge that you have and your willingness to share it. I know that you have a limitless amount of info and photos and I always wonder where you keep it all... And i know it ain't where you been scratchin'...:D
Ken

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Should be a Ford frame drawing somewhere, you would think some Merc guys would have looked into this.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Ahhhh……..I guess I tend to run my mouth a bit, huh? Only way(s) I'm "leavin" here would be by Ryan's sword, or in a body bag, with neither choice sounding too exciting at the moment. And thank you for the kudos, Ken. Dick D (DD)

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

JSeery …...Here is a '35-'40 Ford chassis drawing compliments of Karl at Wescott. We still need a '41-'48 Ford drawing, plus the two Mercury drawings for comparative purposes. DD


1935-1940 Frame Drawing

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Excellent effort V8 Coopman. Its good to knowthis stuff when searching for bits.
You mentioned torque tube lenghts for 41-48 Mercury. I have just measured mine out of my 48 Mercury and its 72 inches. Actually I measured it at 1828mm which converts to 72 inches.
keep up the good work
Dave

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Sorry...duplicate! DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

'Morning, Dave....That is so timely, and much appreciated. I shall add that info to the thread. This is partly how this compilation has come to be, through the efforts of many, like yourself.


Did you notice anything strange or noteworthy about the construction of that T-Tube? Likely not as it sounds to be the same as a '41-'48 Ford. Thank you again! DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Here is a photo of my 48 Mercury rear axle assembly. There does not appear to be any significant difference to the Ford ones.
My understanding is that the only differences are in the front length, hence the adaptor plate you mention above. This MAY be compensated for by the front engine mounts that you also mention, hence the torque tube being same as Ford.In other words the engine remains in the same location as the Fords but the extra lenght is from the firewall forward.
Sorry if this doesnt make sense.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Great summary V8COOPMAN!


Thank you!
Glenn

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

1939 Mercury frame diagram and 1942-48 Ford/Mercury frame diagrams.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Yes, was saying there should be Ford design drawings for the Merc frames. I have not idea how Ford engineering was organized, if they were in totally different locations or co-located. Same with engineering drawings, were they housed in the same facility or were they kept at different locations.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

My God Karl, you Sir are a gift from old Ford Heaven! I'm not surprised that you had this stuff tucked-away...I obviously just didn't have access, nor your blessings. You're very kind to share this with the FordBarn peanut gallery. Would I be asking TOO much if you also have the '35-'40 Ford drawing available here in a similar format, and rotated straight with the world like these current three drawings? I couldn't make that one post on the forum near as well as you can. If you have no objections, I'm going to incorporate these valuable drawings into this thread compilation, and certainly with credit to you. Many thanks again, Karl! Cool stuff, for sure. DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Well, there you go!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Edsel Ford started the body design department in 1937 or so but the Ford engineering lab was built before that in 1924. When Bob Gregorie was hired to help with the Lincoln cars, Edsel put him over in the Ford Airport building that was across the street so that Henry wouldn't mess with him. Henry didn't care as much about the body design as he did the chassis & drive system. The Mercury was kind of a first major design change for Ford since they purchased Lincoln. Lincoln was always Edsel's baby since Henry didn't care much about the hoity toity cars. He felt it would give Edsel something to do where he wouldn't try to mess with the Ford line of cars. Henry would always put his foot down on the frame and would not allow much of any changes. The Mercury was a different car though and would have a longer design. Edsel finally found a way to get the longer frame that he always wanted but it was only longer by 4-inches. The 1st Generation Mercury body was completely different than the Ford line so I don't know where the firewall was in relation to the frame. It wasn't till 1941 that they started trying to use the same basic body as Ford but dress and accesorise it more. In 1942, there were a lot more things interchangeable between Ford & Mercury than there ever were before. The new design for 49 was when the Mercury line started to blend more with Lincoln than Ford but that only lasted a few years.

All the frames were designed by a different department in the Engineering Lab. Joe Galamb pretty much oversaw the frame design and production design that were going on and Henry was always around there to see what was going on and make them change things he didn't like. It's no coincidence that the Mercury frames are still a lot like the Ford counterparts.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Yet, I've read that on Henry's trips to his winter home in Florida he rode in a Lincoln. Obviously he had figured long before that there was more money in selling a lot of low priced cars over selling just a few high profit cars. Maybe a case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Just real quick & not looking at drawing on phone. I think frame rails maybe the same & front cross member moved ahead. That’s why the engine mounts are behind cross member. Steering box also moved ahead & has longer shaft( guess how I know). After rebuilding a box. That’s what it looks like just observing my 41 Merc. Without front sheet metal on it.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...p;d=1591750154

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...p;d=1591750154

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...p;d=1591750154
Here are comparison pictures of a 1939 Ford Deluxe Sedan and a 1939 Mercury Sedan. You can see how much different they are. No body panel interchanges.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Wow, Mercman, that "nose" to "nose" profile shot sure shows the extra 4"s doesn't it!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Hopefully, all of you with any real interest will see that I was NOW able to add the dimensional drawings of the four basic frame types utilized during this '39-'48 time frame. Karl Wescott kindly made these drawings available to us. I've arranged the pics so that you should be able to easily compare differences between Ford & Merc frames of like years. Good stuff! And thank you again, Karl. DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Greetings from Canada .

I just found your post about a longer shaft steering box . Are you referring to the shaft that exits the side of the frame rail?
If so can you tell me what years and model had the longer shaft . Not sure from your post .

Thanks so much for your time

Beantoad

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

I'm also interested in this as my 1947 Merc may need to have the box rebuilt. I'd like to know if Ford box with shaft is the same length.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

With 99.9% certainty, the boxes themselves are the same. The shafts/tubes are longer because the Mercs had 4" longer wheelbases than the like-year Fords, the difference being in front of the firewall. DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

@V8COOPMAN. Thanks, as I was suspecting.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

V8Coopman
As you have stated the 39 & 40 Merc's are on an Island ALL to themselves as, again you stated, afterward the Fords & Merc's started becoming more "A LIKE" as far as crossover usage. IT still totally amazes me just "how different" in just about "every" aspect the 39 & 40 Mercury's are (body wise) than the Ford counterparts.......NOTHING will crossover, NOT Floorboards, Floorboard seals, Floor mats, Obviously NOT the doors, hoods, glass....NOTHING!!!!! I would also bet you could go as far as the seats too!!!!


GREAT STUFF V8Coopman!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

For humor sake....The ONLY thing that is for sure Ford/Mercury!!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Perhaps there are a few that would appreciate knowing how rare those caps really are, and WHY! DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...5&d=1615309949

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

V8Coopman
I hate using the term "rare" as it is SO often misused its become the "cry wolf" AND I don't want to sound braggadocios either as some may think........BUT......Yes the ones pictured are very unusual a minimum and I would say argue the platitude of "rare". Fortunately I just recently score a set of 4, rough to say the least BUT not a total loss either!!!! IF you want to talk about "bonafide" RARE........The below picture is it!!!! That is rarefied air!!!! The FULL SS Ford/Mercury cap.
To your point of the "why" (for those not in the know) the infamous "Ford/Mercury" hub caps were "about" a 3 week (Or SO) production run (basically) by mid to late October 1938 (as Ford Lore goes). I personally have questions about that time frame as I have a "back in the day" picture of a 39 Mercury Conv with them on it.....NOW I have heard that the 39 Merc Conv was a 12/39 release date (whether true or not I do not know) BUT IF it is true then WHY or how did it end up with Ford/Mercury hub caps??? Leftovers?? Possibly. Someone thought they were cool and added them maybe SO. OR the Convertible was released way earlier than 12/38.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

SAID 39 Mercury Convertible with the infamous Ford/Mercury hub caps for those inquiring minds!!!! IF memory serves me correct in the publication I scanned this picture from stated that the 2 & 4 door Sedans were the first models produced and that the convertibles & coupes followed with a December of 1938 introduction!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

This is a great piece of info. I have both a 46 Ford and 46 Merc chassis to look at but now I won't have to.

Thanks,
JWL

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Can anyone confirm that the 1941-1948 Ford & Mercury Station Wagon (woodie) frames are the same dimensions as the other passenger cars? My original Merc parts catalog has the same part number as the passenger vehicles, but I have heard differing accounts.

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Just to ADD or throw a monkey wrench into the whole Ford/Mercury production AND what is "correct". The subject of wire loom covers on the firewall came about a few months back and what color they were "originally". Here is a "Factory" photo on the Assembly line of the 39 Merc "CLEARLY" showing it to be "Body Color" and NOT "Black" as was the "common" consensus. ALSO Clearly body color on our "early" 39 Merc as well!!!!!

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

.

Is that a '39 FORD pick-up coming down the line behind the Merc? What assembly plant is this? DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...3&d=1628010662

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

Not sure, how late did 38 production run for pick up's?? We know that Mercury started on Sept 21st (??/23rd??) SO it would have to be at least late Sept of 38, early October maybe??? I found that same fact very interesting as well V8Coopman

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

OK, how about this (and I NEVER even thought about Merc production facilities) .....were Mercurys built in Ford assembly plants back then? Were they built in a Merc-ONLY facility? The picture above kind of suggests otherwise. DD

Re: FORD/MERCURY 1939-1948...Differences (Re-Boot)
 

You're so fortunate to have that body number 'plate! I've never seen one on a firewall that was screwed on!!! Always riveted for obvious purpose(s) hmmmm. Could this have been 'donated' from/by another car? And if so why!

My '33 3w has no body number 'plate' nor any evidence that there ever was one! Very disappointing. Maybe it was 'donated'; the 4 rivet holes filled. The firewall is black paint.

Fortunately the back window is FoMoCo Safety glass, 6/33, so I have some idea of its production time frame.

Also, the Ford patent 'plate' is drilled through the center for the heater hose. Bummer.