Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Looking at purchasing all the valvetrain components, 4-ring pistons and rings from Speedway - any thoughts you might have I would appreciate......

This is for a French block build, .125 over, 4” crank, L100 cam, Charlie NYs top mount distributor, 2 deuces, and heads are still a question mark .....

Thanks .....

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Heres my thoughts
Since the bore is going to be .125 over it would be much better running three ring pistons. The reduction is friction alone would be worth any additional cost. Speedways pistons are actually Egge brand cast pistons. You may be able to get a better price by ordering the pistons and rings directly from Egge.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Just my opinion,
Pistons from Egge, everything else from Red's Headers. Two stop shopping and it comes with tons of advice as these guys have been at it for years.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

If were me I'd check with Red's Headers. An independent dealer and he won't try to sell you something you don't want, need, or won't work in your application. I bought almost everything for my 8ba rebuild from Red's. High quality mostly USA made parts (the bearings were from Israel IIRC) and fair pricing IMO.

https://www.reds-headers.net/
62400 Chiriaco Rd, Chiriaco Summit, CA 92201
(760) 343-2590

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

To add to this, I would also suggest looking into pistons with metric ring packs. The extra money on this upgrade is well worth it in reduced friction and wear. There is a measurable difference turning one over by the crank bolt with metric rings vs. cast iron.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

check with van pelt.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I'm doing a French block and have been looking at Reds. I agree with the 3 ring metric ring pistons but who makes the best? Where do you get the L100 cam?

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Check with Kiwinus over on the HAMB

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Kiwi Tony on Fordbarn is grinding them.

I'll let others answer the piston question. I went with Ross, but Arias and Wisco also make 3 ring, metric ringed pistons for flatheads.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Not sure what the application is, but the L-100 cam is more for show, with it's rump rump sound. It need compression for local driving as the bottom end torque is missing. A Max #1 or Isly 1007b have nallot mor compression sa the intakes sooner (Dynamic CR) I think' I like *.5 for regular gas if you cam get it. I don't think the ross forged pistons for Metric rings, is cost effective for a street engine. Unless he\s planning on running Bville., ,
Love my new keyboard, much smarter than the old one
Gramps

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I'm running a set of Speedway 4 ring 3 5/16" pistines in my latest build. I go 'em on closeout ("Garage Sale") for less than $100 (ristons, pins, clips and rings). I left out the bottom rings (they have modern oil rings in the third groove), had it balanced, and it works just fine. The main reason I used them is that I had everything but the pistons to put an engine together and price of these made it an easy decision.

I'd do it agian inn a hearbeat. I agree with "Gramps" that the metric-ring pistons are probably a waste of money on a street motor. (I didn't use a block plate when I bored it either).

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I´m not sure that many understand what low tension actually means...the only rings that has a tension spec is the oilrings...
Compression ring (first ring only) is forced against cylinderwall by compression and not by a set tension in it...
So if you go modern low tension you have to adress windage or oilcontrol will be the next issue in your new motor.
And if you go real narrow you need tight piston to ring fit...which means you need gasporting for the rings to work...
If resistance turning the engine over by hand would be reflected in horsepower gain it would be lovely...sadly that isn´t happening.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I hear what you are saying, but drag is drag, no? If it takes 55 lbs to turn over one motor and 40 lbs another, you really don't think that extra 15 lbs. accounts for HP loss or inefficiencies?

Also, if modern rings weren't superior to cast iron, every major auto manufacture would have stuck with them for they are cheaper and easier to install.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Thank you gentlemen - I will now go do my homework.....

You guys are the best.....

TomT

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

You gain HP or rather loose less...
But friction from compression ring will just show running the engine...not turning over by hand.
And what kind of power increase in % do you think it will gain for you ?
Older rings ain´t easier in any way...other way around since you need break-in which means the driver can fail doing it correct...and manufacturer gets a warranty claim.
Question is more where the money is best spent on a street engine.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

5% here, 5% there all starts to add up to real numbers. If I'm dumping a ton of money and time into an engine, I want the biggest bang for my buck I can get. Every component was thought out how it will work, as a whole, with the other components.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Ring availability is key - you should be able to call ED at Ross Pistons, he will work with you to ensure that he has the right rings available for a given bore size. I frequently CHANGE my bore size to match the rings that I want to run.

The 1.5, 1.5, 3.0mm ring packages are MUCH better than the old cast-iron Grant or Hastings rings. Worth every extra penny!

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Following the practice used in today's engines especially in the area of piston and ring designs will help improve how our ancient old flatheads perform. Metric width rings already improve the reduction in drag due to the reduction in width. Gas ports are not needed to help the ring seal. As for windage and oil control the typical three piece oil control ring supplied with all pistons today easily eliminate any of those concerns. The days of using old wide and heavy rings has long past. From my experience using the modern style ring packs during my many long distance journeys with the flathead block I have found it to be a perfect combination. Adding to that the hundreds of flathead engines i have built using the modern type ring packs have all worked out really well.
Ronnieroadster

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Low Tension Rings: By the way, I'm not talking about "low tension" oil rings in my usage of Ross pistons and metric rings.

While these definitely have applications in racing and performance builds in general, they also require an engine that is effectively "sealed", usually has a vacuum pump and also probably has a full dry-sump oil system - and an oil pan designed with scrapers and windage trays, etc.. The result is a definite increase in HP - but not exactly a "traditional" setup, or one that is easy on the wallet! LOL

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

We still don't know what the application is. This migh be a dailey driver that doesn't see 3 k except when clinbing the interstate ramp. The cost of this stuff is getting out of hand, even for the bad stuff.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I guess that my point. Why settle for a piston that uses old technology when a little more money gets you a lighter, stronger, piston that uses modern technology?

It's only money. Can't take it with you. Haha!

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Great point Ron! We're all pontificating about various piston/ring combinations and have on clue on the application, the budget, the goals, etc.. But Hey - during lockdown we ALL tend to babble too much. ;)

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I guess, knowing Tom, I assumed he'd want a snotty flathead. I could be wrong and just hoping he wants a snotty flathead. LOL!

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

A more powerful flattie for my roadster (avatar) is my goal - you know, snotty! Lol! Ok

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Just wanted to point out that you are not going to get a huge gain in HP from the ring pack not even 5% so if on a budget people should know what they get for their money.
And i actually prefer cast pistons if forged is not needed.
Then it´s the top ring that needs to be steel and thin in a performance engine not the second that is shaped for it´s job of controlling the oil and not in contact with the cylinderwall more then partial anyway.
Not here to argue just sharing what little knowledge i have...i like everybody to have facts not sales myths so they can descide for them self.
And now that we talk all in peformance how many is gapping your first and second ring different...and why should you do so ?

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

The extra power myth of the thin ring pack has been dispelled during a number of tests. Perhaps one of the more recent was done by one of the performance TV shows who found little or no power difference on a Chevy V8.


Yes, I do gap first and second rings differently especially where performance is key. It is doubtful most people know why and which direction unless they read and have paid attention to the info in my book.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Dang, I missed that detail, or don't remember it, the first time I read through JWL's book. I guess I need to read it again. Is that going to be on the test?

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

A test what test! You dont need no stinking book.

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Ring Gap: I tend to follow the piston/ring manufacturer's recommendations - based on the bore size, ring types and performance level of the engine - and whether or not it is naturally aspirated or under boost. From my perspective, the guys making the rings probably know what they should be gapped at. ;)

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Right stuff in the right place as usual...
I was more in general trying to sort out what the rings do...not sure all has a grip on it.
A lot of people that come into the shop atleast think the second ring has something to do with compression...
First ring is compression...second if you try and set it up to tight to act as compression ring the blowby from first not able to pass by second ends up pushing first ring up and that is not good for sealing...you get what is refered to as ringflutter.
So whatever first ring can´t handle we just have to let go down into crankcase...we want to improve it´s first ring and groove we should look at nothing else.
And sealing of the first ring is gases from compression passing by top of ring pushing it out against cylinderwall...not the tension in the ring...so the ring is basicly wobbling around in the groove and if not ridgid enough we get issues...top rings are the only rings you can put in any way for this reason they have a barrelshaped outside since they go from leaning against bottom to top of groove.
So why do we have 2-3 more rings...can´t just another one handle oil and we get less friction ?

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Learn sumpin every day. Wedll said.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Here is a pretty good article with a bunch of dyno tests on modern/thin ring packages. As JWL noted, there isn't a huge HP increase in switching over, so if cost is your big issue, then stick with the older ring packages. This is a good read . . .

https://www.dragzine.com/tech-storie...t-on-the-dyno/

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I think the term “huge” is relative to the overall goal. Like I mentioned previously, little percentages add up to a big number eventually. I’d be hard pressed to believe if someone said you’d gain 20 hp by doing three things, many of us would not take advantage of it. 100+ 20 to 120 is a decent jump.

On my build, I wanted to achieve 175 hp or better. I will know shortly if we achieved that goal, but I’m fairly confident we did.

I guess it all boils down to are willing to put in the time, effort and money see smaller gains knowing you'll need to also do it elsewhere in order to get larger, overall net gains.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Hi Dale, not really the best example, you would have to first test a stock "cast-iron" ring build, either a stock 5/64" or in the case of the OEM Flathead a 4-ring piston with a cast 3/32" and 3/16" ring pack, then swap ONLY the pistons/rings to the 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 ring pack.

We've been down this road on the dyno just a few years ago, I can all but guarantee you will see 20+ (nominal) HP with the metric ring setup, assuming the correct bore finish AND a block plate in the program!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's the results from 2 tests, both are OEM Merc builds (4.000" stroke), same C.I., one had some Nylen pistons and (4) cast rings the other had the Ross metrics. The OEM, cast ring/cast piston build, made about 110 HP and the Ross build made very close to 130. The Ross build also had the 2.000" rod journals! We were NOT chasing HP on either build! On a side note, the dynoed build in the ride in my signature below here made 155+ HP with a single (small) Holley.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Same piston and rotating assembly weight there is no way you can gain 20+ hp in the rings on a 100-150hp engine...sorry just can´t.
So the extra power also came from a lower rotating assembly weight or other modifications.

And before i get chewed at for saying what is refered to as second compression ring isn´t it...sure gases pass by it and it slows down blowby...but it´s a scraper ring in my book.
So first compression...second scraper...third oil...
Then we usually forget that the rings has another job in transfering the heat out of the pistons.
I borrowed the nice pics from a major piston manufacturer.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Dale very interesting test with very real results showing there is an advantage to the narrow is better idea. Of course some of us already know that. The way I see it any time an additional 5% of power can be gained from any valve in block configuration its worth the effort. When the peak HP is near 400 thats a huge addition in power. :D

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

How can comparing the performance of 4-ring pistons with 3-ring pistons be meaningful when comparing ring size?

Seems like apples and oranges to me.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

I was wondering that as well, seems like you would need almost identical engines (or the same engine with a piston swap) and the same pistons (make and weight, etc) with the different rings (like Ross normal and then metric).

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

There´s been plenty of tests with identical custom order pistons...and they all end up gaining between 5-10hp on a 400+ hp engine.
No one has said thinner rings don´t work.
A real advantage with a nitrided tool steel ring is that it can flex an follow a distorted cylinderwall a lot better then a cast ring...when cylinderwalls get thin and you ad a lot of compression they move.
A moly ring on the other hand is real sensitive to detonation...it doesn´t take much running it badly tuned to damange the rings permanently.
It´s also interesting that first ring is still very low on the modern flathead pistons...the space between crown and first ring will contain fuel that won´t burn...so loss of the power in that amount of fuel.

Re: Speedway’s Valve Train Components
 

Assuming these number are correct and they scale, that would be somewhere in the 1.5 to 2.5 hp range on a 100 hp flathead. That would be worth something on an all out engine using 200 hp and 3 to 5 hp gain, every little bit helps. But unless the price is right something you might be able to live without on a street engine.