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GordonP 01-19-2020 07:47 AM
Engine Machining
 

Can anybody recommend a machine shop in Southern California? I've got some burnt valves in my 29 Coupe and want to put inserts in the block. Probably hone the cylinders at the same time. Thanks

larrys40 01-19-2020 11:00 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

I would call Arlyn Bieber at Hansens Model A garage in San Diego. Aryln does engines and they are schooled at all the mechanicals. I'll update back here shortly with the correct phone number.....

Larry

[email protected] 01-19-2020 12:11 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

H&H Machine is in Southern Cal, significant Model A experience

Charlie Stephens 01-19-2020 12:45 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Wherever you decide to go check them out in the archives here and on HAMB. The "&" symbol confuses the search engine so if looking for a company with that in their name go to Google and search for "X&Y on HAMB" or "X&Y" on fordbarn. Please post your experience as I will be looking for something in the future.

Charlie Stephens

Truckerjim 01-19-2020 02:37 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

I would go with Larrys pick as he has experience in this dept.

Tom Wesenberg 01-19-2020 02:41 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

By "inserts" I hope you don't mean you want to install valve seats. I would only do that if it is REALLY needed to correct excess recess of the original seat.

Bob C 01-19-2020 03:33 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

2 Attachment(s)
Here is an engine said to be from H&H.

johnneilson 01-19-2020 04:10 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C (Post 1843163)
Here is an engine said to be from H&H.


Chances are if those two pictures go together, the second one caused the first.


It would be interesting to see the inside of the block, and at what RPM the motor was turning when it came apart.


Also would be interesting to see the details on the crank. From the picture it looks like a "B" crank with welded on counterweights and ground to "A" dimensions.


There was a place in Lancaster, Adams Metalizing. They have done sleeves for me, not sure if they do seats.


John

GordonP 01-19-2020 04:28 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 (Post 1843027)
I would call Arlyn Bieber at Hansens Model A garage in San Diego. Aryln does engines and they are schooled at all the mechanicals. I'll update back here shortly with the correct phone number.....

Larry
I tried googling Hansen's Model A Garage in San Diego and Arlyn Bieber. Maybe I'm missing it - -but I don't see the place you are recommending.

GordonP 01-19-2020 04:48 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 1843057)
H&H Machine is in Southern Cal, significant Model A experience
I bought what turned out to be a H & H Engine at a swap meet about 10 years ago for $100. Turns out it had about 1/4" front to back play in the crank. Took it apart. They had machined away the trust bearing portion of the rear main rabbit, and installed a small split washer on the crank.

The small piece they had added as a thrust bearing had fallen off and ended up in the pan. I took it back to them and they wanted $250 to fix it (reinstall the thrust surface and turn the crank). I junked the engine.

They have changed this design in engines I now see at swap meets. New design looks better - -larger thrust area.

The pictures below don't surprise me.

alexiskai 01-19-2020 04:54 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1843182)
I tried googling Hansen's Model A Garage in San Diego and Arlyn Bieber. Maybe I'm missing it - -but I don't see the place you are recommending.
Arlyn is a member on here, you could reach out via PM

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/member.php?u=1451

GordonP 01-19-2020 04:56 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg (Post 1843123)
By "inserts" I hope you don't mean you want to install valve seats. I would only do that if it is REALLY needed to correct excess recess of the original seat.
I'm rebuilding an engine that has a significantly burnt first cylinder exhaust valve, valve seat, and even the piston is burnt closest to the valve. I had the same problem on my own Model A years ago.

I'm told unleaded gas is tough of the exhaust valves because it burns hotter. I have no data to support this, but the new valves are stainless, and stainless inserts don't burn like the stock block does in my experience.

I have no idea why it's always been the first cylinder. Maybe leaner?

alexiskai 01-19-2020 05:25 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1843196)
I'm told unleaded gas is tough of the exhaust valves because it burns hotter. I have no data to support this, but the new valves are stainless, and stainless inserts don't burn like the stock block does in my experience.
Rich Fallucca of Antique Engine Rebuilding in Skokie IL gave a lecture four years ago where he addressed this – basically said he'd never seen evidence to support the lead hypothesis, but he does put insert seats in his engines for other reasons. See clip here for lead:
https://youtu.be/N5kDrtTJGsU?t=3134

And here for valve seats: https://youtu.be/N5kDrtTJGsU?t=3375

Synchro909 01-19-2020 05:30 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1843191)
I bought what turned out to be a H & H Engine at a swap meet about 10 years ago for $100. Turns out it had about 1/4" front to back play in the crank. Took it apart. They had machined away the trust bearing portion of the rear main rabbit, and installed a small split washer on the crank.

The small piece they had added as a thrust bearing had fallen off and ended up in the pan. I took it back to them and they wanted $250 to fix it (reinstall the thrust surface and turn the crank). I junked the engine.

They have changed this design in engines I now see at swap meets. New design looks better - -larger thrust area.

The pictures below don't surprise me.
There has very recently been a thread on another Ford forum about the engine pictured in an earlier post. Seems the issue is they use the middle main bearing for the thrust, something that will always end in failure, yet they won't learn according to the responses. I was at the repair tent at the National MAFCA meet in Reno a year or so ago and a chap there had an engine done by them. It had stripped the second timing gear in about 400 miles. A new one was fitted in the hope that he could get at least nearly home again to (I think) So Cal.
IMO, fitting hardened seats in a Model A engine should ONLY be done as a last resort. I've never done it and can't see that I ever will.
The OP is doing the right thing seeking advice before parting with his hard earned.

Kohnke Rebabbitting 01-19-2020 06:02 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

6 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 (Post 1843211)
There has very recently been a thread on another Ford forum about the engine pictured in an earlier post. Seems the issue is they use the middle main bearing for the thrust, something that will always end in failure, yet they won't learn according to the responses. I was at the repair tent at the National MAFCA meet in Reno a year or so ago and a chap there had an engine done by them. It had stripped the second timing gear in about 400 miles. A new one was fitted in the hope that he could get at least nearly home again to (I think) So Cal.
IMO, fitting hardened seats in a Model A engine should ONLY be done as a last resort. I've never done it and can't see that I ever will.
The OP is doing the right thing seeking advice before parting with his hard earned.
If a hard seat comes out, it's the machinist fault, not the seats.

We are shooting a 100%, in 55 years.

Herm.

Synchro909 01-19-2020 08:36 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting (Post 1843229)
If a hard seat comes out, it's the machinist fault, not the seats.

We are shooting a 100%, in 55 years.

Herm.
That's not a bad percentage and I can't argue with whose fault it might be but if I stick to the solid valve seat, I figure nothing can come adrift - ever.
BTW, I use a lead replacement in the fuel which doubles as an upper cylinder lubricant.

larrys40 01-20-2020 10:57 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 (Post 1843027)
I would call Arlyn Bieber at Hansens Model A garage in San Diego. Aryln does engines and they are schooled at all the mechanicals. I'll update back here shortly with the correct phone number.....

Larry
I know Arlyn does Babbitt but I converses with him yesterday and he doesn’t do inserts if that’s what you are wanting. If you want an annoyed engine I would call him. If you want an inserted engine you can’t beat AER’s pricing on short blocks with new inserted balanced rods . If you were planning on doing your own assembly if that was the plan I would still do the wise thing and go the short block route for inserts through AER it Babbitt from Hansen’s (Arlyn)

Just my take
Larry

alexiskai 01-20-2020 11:21 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

There may be some terminology confusion here, I believe the OP wanted insert valve seats, not insert crankshaft bearings.

Ray in La Mesa 01-20-2020 02:21 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Hansens Garage 760-789-8296

Chuck Sea/Tac 01-20-2020 06:06 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1843196)
I'm rebuilding an engine that has a significantly burnt first cylinder exhaust valve, valve seat, and even the piston is burnt closest to the valve. I had the same problem on my own Model A years ago.

I'm told unleaded gas is tough of the exhaust valves because it burns hotter. I have no data to support this, but the new valves are stainless, and stainless inserts don't burn like the stock block does in my experience.

I have no idea why it's always been the first cylinder. Maybe leaner?
I would look for a intake manifold leak.

CarlG 01-22-2020 02:36 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] (Post 1843057)
H&H Machine is in Southern Cal, significant Model A experience
That’s the last place I would go. Wait, I would not go there even if they were the only ones in existence.

GPierce 01-22-2020 09:57 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1843196)
I'm rebuilding an engine that has a significantly burnt first cylinder exhaust valve, valve seat, and even the piston is burnt closest to the valve. I had the same problem on my own Model A years ago.

I'm told unleaded gas is tough of the exhaust valves because it burns hotter. I have no data to support this, but the new valves are stainless, and stainless inserts don't burn like the stock block does in my experience.

I have no idea why it's always been the first cylinder. Maybe leaner?
I fly an airplane with a tank in each wing and valve to control which tank feeds the engine.
The engine is equipped with a cylinder head temperature gauge on each cylinder and an exhaust gas temperature gauge on each cylinder. The engine monitor records those temperatures each second for later download and analysis on my laptop computer. I have flown with auto fuel(unleaded) in one wing and leaded aviation fuel (100LL) in the other. Switching tanks and recording the CHT and EGT I could never discern a difference in those temperatures whether on auto gas or leaded avgas.

Having regular access to leaded fuel I have never seen the need to put it in my Model A.

40 Deluxe 01-22-2020 10:24 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

GPierce, Just curious: Does the auto fuel contain ethanol? (I would think not.) And how high can you fly before "vapor lock" becomes a problem?

40 Deluxe 01-22-2020 10:27 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C (Post 1843163)
Here is an engine said to be from H&H.
It's hard to tell from the picture, but I don't see much of a radius on the journals. Could this have caused the crank to break?

GPierce 01-22-2020 11:47 AM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe (Post 1844199)
GPierce, Just curious: Does the auto fuel contain ethanol? (I would think not.) And how high can you fly before "vapor lock" becomes a problem?
I’ve flown to 13,000’ on ethanol free fuel but I won’t fly with ethanol adulterated fuel

The FAA does not allow certified aircraft to use fuel adulterated with ethanol.
When I use auto fuel in my airplane it is ethanol free.
Home built aircraft, of which there are thousands flying do use ethanol adulterated fuel. The higher you go the colder it gets so vapor lock isn’t usually a problem. We drive carburetor cars up to 14,000’..
Avgas vapor pressure remains constant at a 6.5-psi level regardless of the time of year or area of the country it is used. Autogas vapor pressure is often changed in some parts of the country from a high of 15 psi to a low of 7 psi. For that reason I wouldn’t use it but many do without apparent problems. 87 octane fuel is only used in aircraft engines up to 7.5:1 compression ratio. Some higher compression engines can use 91 octane ethanol free fuel, mine included but it’s hard to find. Avgas is only available at 100 octane.

Benson 01-22-2020 12:10 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPierce (Post 1844217)
I’ve flown to 13,000’ on ethanol free fuel but I won’t fly with ethanol adulterated fuel

The FAA does not allow certified aircraft to use fuel adulterated with ethanol.
When I use auto fuel in my airplane it is ethanol free.
Home built aircraft, of which there are thousands flying do use ethanol adulterated fuel. The higher you go the colder it gets so vapor lock isn’t usually a problem. We drive carburetor cars up to 14,000’..
Avgas vapor pressure remains constant at a 6.5-psi level regardless of the time of year or area of the country it is used. Autogas vapor pressure is often changed in some parts of the country from a high of 15 psi to a low of 7 psi. For that reason I wouldn’t use it but many do without apparent problems. 87 octane fuel is only used in aircraft engines up to 7.5:1 compression ratio. Some higher compression engines can use 91 octane ethanol free fuel, mine included but it’s hard to find. Avgas is only available at 100 octane.

Tennessee has MANY more stations than we have around here ... I wish we had 1/2 that many!!



Memphis has 3 stations



one with 91 and



two with 90 octane ethanol free.


https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TN


Just saying ...


Around here if you fly over 12,000 feet you must have an oxygen mask.



At least that was the rule 40 years ago.


I knew dumb guy who flew over Rollins Pass at 11,676ft just to save a little money on oxygen.

I refused to even get into his airplane.


Since it is 11,676 he could sneak in under 12,000!


The joke at the company was that he also lowered the landing gear in case of a down draft!

40 Deluxe 01-22-2020 12:56 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPierce (Post 1844217)
I’ve flown to 13,000’ on ethanol free fuel but I won’t fly with ethanol adulterated fuel

The FAA does not allow certified aircraft to use fuel adulterated with ethanol.
When I use auto fuel in my airplane it is ethanol free.
Home built aircraft, of which there are thousands flying do use ethanol adulterated fuel. The higher you go the colder it gets so vapor lock isn’t usually a problem. We drive carburetor cars up to 14,000’..
Avgas vapor pressure remains constant at a 6.5-psi level regardless of the time of year or area of the country it is used. Autogas vapor pressure is often changed in some parts of the country from a high of 15 psi to a low of 7 psi. For that reason I wouldn’t use it but many do without apparent problems. 87 octane fuel is only used in aircraft engines up to 7.5:1 compression ratio. Some higher compression engines can use 91 octane ethanol free fuel, mine included but it’s hard to find. Avgas is only available at 100 octane.
Thanks for the info! The reason I asked about so-called "vapor lock" was because of the wide variations in auto gas vapor pressure. I remember being at the top of Pike's Peak with a carbureted '86 Chevy Nova (same as Toyota Corolla) and it would not start. A fellow who was patrolling the parking lot with a can of ether starting fluid came over and said "save your battery. You're vapor locked. Common problem up here." It was his job to get people going with the starting fluid. That car had a mechanical fuel pump mounted on the cam cover so it not only heat soaked and had to get the fuel to go uphill but the fuel was now a vapor. Kinda like a flathead Ford with the same high-mounted fuel pump.

GPierce 01-22-2020 03:01 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

My airplane is a high wing and gravity fed fuel to the engine like a Model A.
Fuel pump driven engines are more prone to vapor lock as the entry to the fuel pump is low pressure.
I took my my flat head V8 47 Ford coupe over Trail Ridge in 1956, 14,000’ as I remember.
Didn’t have a problem but did later have a problem over the same pass in 58 in a 53 Plymouth.

GPierce 01-22-2020 03:05 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

I was at 13,000k density altitude, 10,000 msl. only long enough to get over Solider Pass in the Wasatch to get into the Salt Lake Valley. Not recommended but legal as it was less than 30 minutes.

I dint intend to hijack the thread.
Sorry.
Gilbert

California Travieso 01-22-2020 03:18 PM
Re: Engine Machining
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonP (Post 1842987)
Can anybody recommend a machine shop in Southern California? I've got some burnt valves in my 29 Coupe and want to put inserts in the block. Probably hone the cylinders at the same time. Thanks
Gordon,

It's not in Southern California, but you might try Turlock Machine in the Central Valley.They have a good reputation with a lot of the clubs in the Central Valley and Northern California.

David Serrano


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