Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Hi all - Last weekend I was at a car show and everything was fine until I went to leave. Total and complete dead car - no sound, no moaning, no groaning, and no cranking. It was like the battery was out of the car. Had AAA jump me twice to get me home and while the car was on, everything was fine as usual.
Apparently bad battery so got a new one, installed it, and same thing! No sound except once when it cranked. Otherwise, nothing. I've checked and charged the battery, checked the volts on the battery, ground cable and battery seems fine. When the ignition switch is off, I get 6 volts on both sides of the starter, with ignition on, I get 0. I tried hand-cranking it to no avail. The red book wants me to check all kinds of things, but with no power beyond the starter (that I can tell), I can't. It's not making any attempt at starting.

AAA may have used a 12-volt portable jumper to get me going - I didn't look, but he connected the positive lead to the positive terminal, and likewise with the negative and the car started right up and ran great.

Thanks in advance - I'm still very new to all of this!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Read what you wrote above again: Are you seeing 6 volts on each side of the starter? Or each side of the coil?

To clarify, the starter motor turns the engine over, but you are getting no spark? So the engine does not start.

.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Yes - 6 volts on each side of the starter. As for the other question, no - I get absolutely nothing. No crank, no sound, no nothing - so it's hard to test anything else.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Is there a kill switch in the car that someone could have turned?
Is the wiring standard?

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Huh?


TerryO

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

I'm confused. (not tough to do :confused:)

Can you clarify what you mean by...

"I get 6 volts on both sides of the starter, with ignition on, I get 0"

I can't make sense out of that statement.

In your initial post you say...

"No sound except once when it cranked. Otherwise, nothing."

In your next post you say...

" I get absolutely nothing. No crank, no sound, no nothing"

So which is it? Does it crank but not start, or does it not even crank?

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Is there a kill switch? - No

Is the wiring standard - Yes

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

I get 6 volts measured at the battery bolt on the starter, and at the other bolt across the fuse leading to the box. That is, no matter what I put the tester on, I get 6 volts on the starter, but with the ignition switch in the off position. If it is in the on position, I get 0 at the starter.

No sound at all, although it did crank one time (out of probably 50 times that I've tried in hte past 2 days). The one time it cranked was definitely a freak occurrence.

There is no sound at all when I try to start using the starter button - no moan, no groan, no crank - it's like the battery isn't even in the car. That said - there was that ONE time that it did, but that was it. I've not been able to replicate it at all - just dead silence.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

If you leave the key off and step on the starter does it turn over?

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Do the lights and horn work? It seems to me that one of the connections somewhere in your wiring is loose or dirty. That would explain why you were able to get started those few times but have mostly had nothing because contact is not being made for the current to transfer.

By no means am I an electrician but I do know some stuff about electricity.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

No - Whether the key is in or out, on or off, doesn't matter. No sound, no crank.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

No - Nothing works. No horn, lights, etc.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Is the fuse blown?

Has the starter rod become unscrewed from the switch on the starter?

What do you mean by..."the other bolt across the fuse leading to the box."

Have you tried measuring voltage from the stud that holds the cable to the starter to the case of the starter (with the key both on and off)?

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

It sounds like the key has nothing to do with the problem.
Check the grounding strap, it maybe moving when you get in.
If you are getting 6 volts at the starter and it still will not turn over the starter may be dead.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

- I must have, since I tried just about every place on that segment of the engine. But I couldn't tell you any results. I'll try that too in the morning. Thanks!!!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

- That is a fear since AAA probably used a 12 volt jumper to get me going twice.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Good Evening...You might want to disconnect both of your battery cables and check them carefully. A loose end or frayed cables can cause what you have. 12 volt will jump the gap and 6 volt will not. Use your meter and check the cables carefully. Also, if you have the little fuse on the side of the starter, change the fuse as they can fail inside the chrome ends where you can't see the failure. Both things have happened to me. Ernie in Arizona

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Great ideas Ernie - They're on my list! Thanks!!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Sounds like the fuse is bad. With a good fuse, you should never measure a voltage across it.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

The fuse block can also fail.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Just because you're reading 6 volts on your meter doesn't mean you have enough amps to turn over the engine ( or horn or lights etc.) Kinda like a 6 volt flashlight battery will read 6 volts but won't do a thing to start your engine.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Most likely is poor battery posts to cable connections, or battery cable to terminal at battery post.
Make sure the ground connection is good.
Probe the battery posts as you hit the starter to make sure battery voltage stays good.
Probe across battery posts and cables to check for voltage drop while pressing starter button.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Have jumped 6v with 12v many times. Ign sw, amp, or fuse may be bad. Voltage at the coil?? At the junction block??
Paul in CT

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

UPDATE - Changed the fuse and still nothing. Checked the starter rod - it was fine. So, I took the starter switch off and lo and behold there was a huge crevice on the starter contact button (on the starter) where it looks like there was some serious arcing or other such nonsense, due undoubtedly to the 12 v jump starts I got. Similarly on the switch itself - I think that because of these two things, there is either no or practically no connection being made when I hit the starter rod to the switch. Will try to build them up tomorrow and see if I can make a connection. More later, and as always thanks for the ideas and advice!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

That could be why the starter isn't cranking but it still doesn't explain why every other electrical device in the car isn't working.


Have you checked your battery cables?

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Hmmmm. Good point. Yes, I've checked the cables but I really haven't gone past the starter. The red book has various tests to do, but most of them involve cranking the engine, which I can't do, so I'm rather stuck, at least to my newbie mind!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

It sounds like the tests the red book wants you to do are too far ahead of your current situation. To my mind the starter can almost be treated as it's own isolated system since it doesn't care about the rest of the electrical system. The only common electrical connection the starter and the rest of the electrics have are the main battery cables.


As of right now, I would clean up the the starter switch best you can and reassemble everything and see if the starter works. If it still does nothing and you know the switch is making good contact you know either the starter is dead or the battery cables are making poor/no connection.


Judging by the fact that NOTHING electrical in the car is working my bet is the battery cables.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Bad battery connection to the frame could do it. A 12V jump might provide enough power to overcome the high resistance. And 6V starters have been used for years on 12V with no problems, according to some.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Confusion is sewn into a thread if a person doesn't describe things using proper nomenclature such as starter terminal, battery terminal, fuse holder, terminal box, etc. .

Normally model A types have no fuse or circuit protector of any kind so they are add ons and a fuse holder is generally installed at the starter terminal. You should have power at the terminal on the starter if all connections are clean and tight. Loose ground connection or power connection would be suspect. If you have power on the starter terminal but no power at the out put of the fuse holder at the starter terminal then the fuse is loose or bad. The starter should turn over even if the wire from the fuse holder to the terminal box is completely disconnected. Nothing else will work but the starter should turn. If you connect the wire to the terminal box then there should be power to all other switches including the pop out. Loose connections in one of the newer repo type terminal boxes can get hot enough to melt the terminal box plastic. They aren't a quality product like the original Bakelite types were.

If all connections are clean and tight, the battery is the primary suspect whether new or not. Internal condition of the conductor cables would be the only other suspect in that case. They can corrode and break connection internally if they are old and in poor condition. The battery cables should be a good quality #0 gauge conductor wire cable assembly. #1 gauge might work but 0 or larger would be preferable.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Ok all - it's time for me to come clean. The problem turned out to be the nut behind the multi-meter! I just got a new one and had it set incorrectly! Once I figured that out, I was able to find that it was in fact the battery as rotorwrench mentioned above - my new 6 volt battery registered a whopping 3.14 (Pi) volts! It was a new Optima battery to replace the one that died - but I'd heard recently on Facebook that the newer Optima batteries are not always that great. Regardless, I was able to recharge it (which is a whole other story) and by yesterday afternoon, I was driving it around!

Here's a point for everyone - I have a new Diehard 6/12 volt battery charger. It gives instructions for recharging the battery if it's still in the car, and if it's out of the car. The former led to a number of mis-charges - that is, the voltage would go up, then down, then quit. Once I disconnected the battery from the car and charged it according to the guidelines for out of the car, it charged right up in about 2-3 hours.

Thanks again everyone for your input! Now to go have a big plate of crow . . . . .!

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Thanks for the update.

I would suggest you still have electrical problems. 2 dead batteries in a row suggest it may be something other than bad batteries.

Also, an external charger should properly charge a battery when the battery is in the car and hooked up since there should be no draw on the battery in that situation.

If the battery goes dead for the 3rd time, you probably should look further for a draw. One common one is a sticking brake light switch.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Good electrical connections are very important to a 6volt system. Clean and tight.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

Thanks again everyone for your input! Now to go have a big plate of crow . . . . .![/QUOTE]


Now Rivcokid, there is something you must get straight. To prepare your meal. Boil crow with a brick for 3 maybe 4 hours. Remove the crow and eat the brick.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

If not already checking - every time you turn the motor off - check the ammeter.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

The definition of "modern" equals 'Junk" and battery's are at the top of the list.

Re: Electrical problem has me stumped
 

I have 11 vehicles licensed and insured, 6 modern 5 antique, plus a couple of farm vehicles. Most of them sit for long periods of time, some with battery maintainers plugged in, some without. When I go to start one and it doesn't crank, the first thing I go to , to check the battery, is my Harbor Freight battery load tester. There are other brands that do the same thing, but it was 20.00 about 10 years ago and works great, even though it doesn't say Snap On on it. A voltage tester tells little about the state of the battery, a load test shows whether it has enough power to start the engine. It is the first tool I use to determine a possible battery problem. If the battery checks out OK then on to battery cables etc etc. if not a charge and then another load test, if it fails after a correct charge, then a new one is called for. I know that many on this forum do not have a auto mechanic background, but a battery load tester is easy to use and inexpensive, and worth the small investment.