Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Thanks for everything, this is an amazing site,, wish I would have found it sooner than I did, would have saved me a ton of grief,,my wife now thinks that I live on fordbarn! And ford garage!
I have a question for all you smart experienced folks on here.
I purchased a nice barn car, 30 Tudor the engine was good, original numbers, just no shims left in any bearings, so since I don’t pour babbit I took it to some one that claims to have done hundreds, just to freshen it up, I let the pro do his stuff, all the other A guys use him,,it had all the valve seats replaced, new Babbitt, ground crank, rods,,ect.
When I picked up the engine it had been painted inside and out with cast iron color paint on top of old sludge and dirt. The crank didn’t feel right, it ended up being 4.5 thou. Off center on the center main with 5 thou shims added so it would turn.(I didn’t want it turned to begin with it was standard and in good shape but it got turned anyway)
The rods were 20 grams out from each other and the wrist pins were looser that they were at the start. None of the caps were original to the block or rods,,they were matched when I brought it in. The new cam-crank gear had been beaten on cold and was well deformed and the edges of the teeth rolled.I tried to very calmly talk about some things that I could see and got my butt chewed real good and told that that was good enough for a model A, I never do work like that and it is not good enough for me.
I’m not interested in bad mouthing anyone in public, but this is only to establish a baseline for my question.
For interest I will ad that I started turning bolts at about age 12, was very serious by 16,(built my first engine tranny and rear end) and did it for a lively hood for many years, everything from bumper to bumper, specializing in auto transmissions, engines and anything else. I have a reputation for excellent work, I am a perfectionist, I now make violins, very nice ones according to professional players, I don’t say any of this to boast, I’m just a plain ol half dumb guy who’s not afraid to try and, so now you know where I am coming from. I learned to drive in a 28 Tudor,I always wanted one and after all these years this is MY CAR FOR ME The entire car is apart from bumper to bumper, and every bearing and clip that is needed will be.
I thought that I had seen it all! But when I got this engine back I was in shock! Seriously, as in no comprehendo!
I was SO STUPID for letting him tell me that the seats are always changed in a model a,,what a fool I can be. After reading on here,,about the seats I feel like a total idiot, and I am ashamed to say that I bet I could have gotten 40,000 miles out of the valves the way they were.
So now I have a Burlington crank , new rods,with inserts. (the new babbit broke out like glass into tiny pieces) I have taken a brass punch and tapped lightly around on the seats and they did settle some more, barely, barely,,,,, but they did move. Funny thing they look beautiful. I am a perfectionist and after the other work I cannot rest that they are not too tight or too loose or might have a piece of iron under the seats to rock on and get loose. I feel like I have been in a nightmare.
So for and experiment and a baseline,,,I took the original head and peened around a bolt hole on the top, and put a socket in the hole from underneath and drove it through to test the malleability and strength of the peened cast, and I really had to drive the socket past the peening and the cast did not even chip out as the socket pushed through. That is some tough cast iron.
So my question is do I pull out the seats check the fit and roll the edge and put them back in and peen,,, or do I drive across the USA with a knot in my stomach always wondering?
Is the block iron the same as the head, will it peen the same?
If this was your car,,,what would you do?
Thanks for everything, this is an amazing site,, wish I would have found it sooner than I did, would have saved me a ton of grief,,my wife now thinks that I live on fordbarn! And ford garage!


Thanks
Still Queezie

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I am sorry this happened to you.

If it were mine, I would find a reputable shop and have it redone. Yes, it will be expensive. However, it beats always wondering how far you will make it this time.

A Model A motor is surprisingly precise under all that cast iron. When Turlock Machine (or another reputable shop that specializes in Model A motor rebuilding) gets done with a Model A motor, the tolerances are exact, and you don't have to worry about it coming apart on you.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I had a similar experience with a transmission of a different brand pickup. Took it to a vendor that was supposed to be the experts on transmissions of that era. Yeah the recommendation was from one guy that was recommended by another guy. I would have done the work myself had I been able to locate the parts at the time. It was a nightmare to say the least and after weeks of waiting and finally getting them to stop telling me lies i was able to find parts at the other end of the USA NOS and led the rebuilder to them. Enough of that. So from that experience I now only use nationally advertising vendors and recommendations from reliable sources. I trust most of the posters here at Ford Barn if or when they say don't use them or yes they are dependable.

I too have learned something about Model A valve seats and when I rebuilt my engine thought at the time to myself this must be some tough block if it were built without replaceable seats. None were burnt or pitted and I just figured lap the new updated valves and give it a try. So far after at least 500 miles I have good exactly the same compression in all 4 cylinders.

I would get your engine to a reputable vendor and have it fixed. After your experience about this guy I wouldn't be one bit shy about asking several vendors names, some you have read about and throw the guy you used in there. Bad experiences need to be shared as well quality workmanship from vendors that know they must do quality work if they are going to stay in business.

Posting pictures to show help. Add a location to your profile you are in so other people can help you find vendors nearby.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I guess I am now concerned about the thickness of the cast under the seat and how tight they are. These are 3/32 seats and are small so I am considering pulling them out and checking for debris, the fit, then rolling the edge and peening them in.
I have done many valve jobs but at this point don't want any more surprises,
the place that will line bore the block will do the seats again, but only by making them larger.
To me that is out of the question if there is any other way.(I've been reading too much fordbarn,is that possible!)
I can make a tool that will pull them straight up and out then reinstall and peen.
I am confident that I can pull that off. And the question of valve seat adhesive, can it later deteriorate and leave things loose. And exactly what brand,,, many shops don't use any.

Am I out of my mind or what! Don't ask the wife!

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Your description of the attitude and comments from this so-called engine builder had me grinding my molars. I once had a similar exchange with a guy who was regarded as an expert on antique engines and managed to extricate my engine from his shop before he got too far into it. When the guy gets testy about your questions, tells you he won't reveal the source or type of Babbitt he uses, states that his work is "good enough for an old Model A", scoffs at your suggestions, etc., then its time to grab your stuff and get the hell out of there.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Sounds like you met the same guy,,
I do most everything,,But I don't pour babbit, I thought it would work out, it did not. I saw all of these signs you mentioned before hand,,I should be horse whipped for my own comfort, I would feel much better.
I am now going with inserts,

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

It might help if you were to add your location to your avatar. That way some one might be able to recommend help in that vicinity. Just a thought. Sorry about your misfortune.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

If you pull these out, you will never get them to go back in and stay. If you are worried about them coming out now, I grant you they will if you try to re-use them. I never replace the seats and don't ever recommend that they are unless I can't talk the customer out of it or the original seats are just beat to death.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

This is what I was looking for,,the rest of the work was so bad I just don't trust the seats, this is my baby!
Too tight things crack, too loose they come out.

Do I just run it as is or pull them out and do over.

Is the block iron the same as the head?

Should they be beveled and peened in as has been mentioned on the forum?

This time around I just want to really think about it.

I realize how foolish I was for having them replaced, I got the block's to soft for modern fuel song and dance and we don't do model a's without replacing the seats.
The original seats were just fine

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

HUM,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Idaho,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,Gods country.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

These are the kind of hard stories that makes all shops look bad.
I had posted long while back about questions to ask a machine shop before handing over your engine.

Clearly if the valve seats don't look right they aren't. If you got them to move then they will come out. Yes: There is a tool that will pull them straight out. Not all machine shops have it though. You can't reuse the same seat.

Interesting part of all this is that you're willing to go back there and have it done again.
If they goofed the first time and had devil may care attitude"good enough" is never good on anything. What do you expect on getting a second time?
If they were so shoddy to paint over the grease that would cut it with me for sure.

You're not the first as we've heard your story alot over the ears we've been doing engines.
If anyone reads my post I suggest you do your diligence and see what kind of work machine shop does, what they are going to do for the money and in this case have they worked on Model A before and was it successful?

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

The seats actually look quite nice.
After med. tapping with a brass punch I could see a silver line out side of the seat where it had moved, barely discernible with the fingernail.
I can make a tool that will pull the seats straight out.
I would like to replace the seats without removing any more material.
I am not going back to that shop at all, will not.
They have done hundreds and are known in the area, and recommended.
Many people with A's are not mechanics per say and just don't know.
I have heard stories of bad rods and trouble on new engines but it was always the drivers and the timings fault.
I realize that it was most likely neither the driver or the timing.
I also understand that this gives a bad impression on the business,,
this is true in any endeavor. There are good and bad,,,,I've been had.
I did not bring this up to complain, I have been hesitating for a while,,,
this happened a while a go,,
I'm just looking for an education. So I'm asking experience.
I've got to move on and need some wisdom for my steps.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

If you are to replace valve seats you'll need a accurate bore gauge to measure the counter bore and then after selecting right size seat you'll need to machine valve seat angles.
There is a company in Texas that will make the seat to your specifications on the outside diameter. Their name is "Tucker"
Just to give you an idea of the seat puller we use: Here it is,expanding collet style impact gun. https://www.facebook.com/newenfixedt...3056598754368/

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I agree that your main babbits need to be redone. You will have nothing but problems if your crank is not the proper distance from your cam. You should have a shim pack in each main cap for future adjustment.

I see you are in Idaho. The closest person to you I know of who does main babbits is Bill Barlow. He is located in Bend Oregon (telephone # 541-389-2694). He is in his 80's and is an expert. He works with his grandson. You can call him and make an appointment. He will start work in the early a.m. and be done around noon on the same day. This makes it great if you are going to bring your block to him. He also has balanced babbit rods for sale. The last I heard, about 8 months ago, was he was still doing babbit work.

The other person who does excellent babbit work is Eric Barrett. He is located in Auburn, California (telephone # 530-863-7579). He has been highly recommended by Les Andrews. The last I heard his turn around time is about one week .

Sorry for your heartache. Hope this helps you.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Great just when I was beginning to feel confident about getting my motor rebuilt and I read this thread.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

"END QUOTE"

Never try to use the same O.D. of valve seat that has been tried, and pulled. We have never had a seat come loose or out. You just have to know the right press clearance. I have a machine shop in Fort Dodge, Iowa do that kind of work for us, and Vern's work there is perfect, and I do know what perfect is.

Here is some of his, and our work.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

From what I've seen on FB concerning engine rebuilding, I'd have to say that Herm Kohnke, James Rogers, and Ora Landis' shops put out about the best rebuilds out there.

First class all the way. Good to have guys like that around.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

You can add Ron Kelley to that list.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

30Tudor. So sorry to read your horror story. It's unfortunate that shops are still doing crappy work in today's age of tooling and equipment. The turds are still around always have been and probably always will
. I know a lot of old car people have been in your situation and that's really unacceptable. The work is simple in nature and any competent shop would not knowingly turn out a job with as many problems as you have told us about. It's a shame that the proprietor of the business would allow such work out of his shop.
But that shows that he is a person who cannot be reasoned with ,so therefore you got what he shoved down your throat.
Just curious did he offer any warranties with his work or was it just take it and shut up.
Again so sorry for you headaches, try some of the guys that have been mentioned here, they would not treat you like the last guy.
The difference with the company's mentioned on the barn is they love their work,cars and the people that bring in the business to them.
Best of luck

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Go to some one that knows what their doing. They can pull the seats and measure. You can buy seats that are made oversized and you can also cut down a seat that is lager to the right size.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

30 Tudor you should get an award for keeping your cool after your experience. I too experienced similar shoddy work performed on my engine rebuild but didn't find it out until 10K miles later. All I can say is if you want your engine to perform equal to original or better I would have J&M Machine in Southborough, MA rebuild your engine. If your engine in its present condition is not rebuildable they will tell you from the get go. If it is salvagable I can assure you they will do an outstanding job. I had my engine rebuilt by them and am very pleased with the performance and the quality of workmanship they provide. Their policy during the rebuild process is to send photos of progress, provide dimensional data, and supply before and after dynamic balance data. My friends who have J&M rebuilt engines and including myself are all very pleased with the end results.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Heart breaking story, hang in there 30 Tudor, you'll get things going your way, just gonna take a little longer than you were planning. Sounds like this shop isn't used to dealing with someone that knows engines and they've been caught! Spread the word to your fellow Model Aers and keep others from spending there money with these people.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

This is why I am always contemplating going with a modern motor in my model A's instead of getting the original motors rebuilt. Or may be wait till Tod gets his new model A motors done.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

So sorry to hear about your "rebuild".

You have posted what you have found, what about what you have not yet found?

If not for the fact that the engine actually goes with the car I would say turn it into a learning experience and do what you can yourself (like you said about the violins), but it would be a shame to take a chance of really damaging that block.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Just curious, has anyone ever used one of the model a vendors rebuild service ? See them advertise in their catalogs different levels of rebuilt engines. Have never seen feedback on the quality or problems with these engines.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Hey 30tudor,
Kronke Rebabbitting is in your 'vacinity' (Iowa). Call him and talk to him regarding your situation. He, most likely, has read your tale of woe and horror regarding your monster engine mess.
If I lived in your area and needed help, Kronke would be one of two choices in that area for A/B engine work.

Know that you are not alone in your situation and what you have experienced. I will say that at your age and experience(mechanical)...that you should recognize the smell/sound of BS...and walked ! Sorry to learn that another rip off has occurred. This 'rebuilder' should be taken to task and at the very least, if true, you should let others know who it is , so that they may not have same bad experience.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I know there are lots variables, cracked block, head, valve seats, bad crank etc. but assuming the above are restorable what is a ballpark cost for overhaul by one of the top builders - long block?

John

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Iowa really isn't that close to Idaho.


There are reputable engine builders here too.

By not being specific about your location in Idaho, you cast a shadow on all the engine builders here.

I had my engine rebuilt and it runs beautifully.

The machinist even drove across the valley to be here for the first start.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I apologize for that,,
I don't like to bad mouth, I even thought about just PMing some guys from here to avoid that.
I sure that many of his builds seem fine,, we don't drive these cars too hard.
But unfortunately I am being honest in my evaluation and I actually feel bad about that.
Or should I have just run the crank .0045 off center on the center main, and the babbit loose and wiggly in the block, I'm not being smart................
The old guy loves the model A stuff.....oh well. I try to love him, but it is expensive.
I live in I F.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Yes I saw a lot of flags, I just thought he could get the babbit in,,
15 mins from my house.
I've seen 1/2 doz, immaculate cars around here,,, restored here,,
he is their hero can everyone be wrong?
Also heard of failed rods, on new engines,,heard of after mine was done.

I should rightly have my arse kicked,,,,I know

But would I learn?

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Yes exactly,,,I am kinda freaked out about the possibility,
The car was like disassembling a 30 year old car,
having the valve seats put in makes me ill.
It did need babbit.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I've heard there is a fellow who does babbitt over in Idaho Falls. I thought he had retired.

The fellow who built my engine does both babbitt and inserts, but he leans more towards inserts these days.

I would not hesitate to take him another engine.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

30 Tudor, I feel your pain about the seats but, seats are not a bad thing , when needed. I never install stainless seats. The difference in the metals of the seat and the block will most often cause problems ,especially with the exhausts. If the temperatures of the exhaust get too high, it can cause the cast block to expand faster than the stainless and the seat can release the seat causing severe damage. The only way I install seats is to use cast iron seats and peen them for added security. I have installed stainless but, only at the insistence of the owner and I don't warranty them. This is all included on the customer estimate and invoice. In your case, it is quite possible to remove the seats and properly install slightly larger cast iron seats.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

It's interesting about the SS seats. I recall all the talk back when lead was taken out of the gasoline in '75, how antique cars would suffer from valve seat failure, and a lot of people were scrambling to have hardened seats installed.

Fast forward to today, and we find that is not the case. The original design was/is fine, and actually looks like it's better to stay stock as the way Ford designed this engine.

The low comp. ratio of the Model A seems to be pretty forgiving. Maybe that is one reason Henry worked it out that way.

30Tudor keep us informed on your situation.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

On this post there seems to be that Hard Seats are getting a bad name.

There are many advantages to a hard seat.

The main reason is fixing a block surface so all the valves set on top of the block as when new. Then all is Equal, in intake gas charge, and Expulsion, if head chamber, and piston Height, and cam lift, is all the same.

If you use hard seats, and S. S. valves, you will not have valve burning issues. We build all blocks, Model T, A, and B's with all valve holes having hard seats.

If you use just the block, or cast iron seats, along with a soft valve. When the valve burns, and it is ALWAYS THE VALVE FIRST, that is when it takes the cast block, or cast seat with it.

We have built motors that had for many years, had heating problems. On pulling the head, what you seen, was a valve ground so far down in the block that the top of the valve was even with the top of the block! Like that they will Heat bad!

When you start grinding a valves seat, there is only on way for them to go, and that is down.

Another bad thing is putting in seats and having to sink the seats below the block surface so when surfacing you don't brake all the broach teeth out of the broach wheel. Your seats, and block surface should look like this. Picture below shows the way the seats should look after the block is surfaced. You will note that the seats were done badly, and Vern had to use a larger O.D., that hurts nothing, as you can see.

Plain and simple, if your Seats fail, your Babbitt fails, any machine work fails, crank ground off center, or off center in the block, bad, or no Radius in crank, its bad workmanship.

Nothing fails if done right with the machine work.

Herm.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Thanks for all of the info and concern.
I just want to say that I did not intend this to be a witch hunt, yet I realize that it is not fair not to warn of potential trouble and cost to unsuspecting enthusiasts. I'm not happy about any part of it.
I brought up the sloppy work to emphasize the concern I have about the seats in particular.
Was the cutter the right size, worn by .002 are they loose or tight, are the holes round?

As of now I have retrieved the block from the shop that will do the rest of the work for me so I can sort out the seats. It's unfair to expect then to spend their time messing with this unless I just have it all redone, and I might if it is deemed necessary.

Right now the two outer exhaust seats will rock in the block by tapping with brass.
Maybe a burr left by the cutter? Who knows. I wouldn't call them loose but they will move, not much, but, that is an absolute no in my book, I will carefully pull them straight out and look,,, sniff ,,,and measure!
The intakes look and feel rock solid.

After a couple of nights of restless sleep after reading about seat problems right here on fordbarn, I realized that there could be lots of potential problems that lie ahead
if I don't address them now, I didn't install them myself and have not a clue about a lot of possibilities. At this point I'm glad I've checked it out. and I don't begrudge the past, but there is a reason that the drivers licenses are pulled from many elderly people!
Thanks for the help.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Sounds like you made the right move.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

Beautiful work as always Herm.

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

I'm glad that I checked the valve seats,
Here I show a sunk seat after a little tapping,
a feeler gauge under a different seat, and the debris under the seat that I pulled out. Several of them have a gap under them on one side,
that isn't normal is it? The bottom of the one I pulled out appears to be quite a ways from being level in the bottom.

I mean to say,,,,, that thing was tight, really tight, started feeling like something could break before it came loose.
It's an SB1625-1

But if the engine was hot going down the highway, wouldn't it settle and then the valve wouldn't seat properly and eventually the valve head could break from the stress?
I have ground hundreds of valves but always had the guides or seats done
by someone else when needed. Never had a problem.

Would like to hear from all the great shop guys that do this stuff.

What next? take them all out I presume.

Sure gonna be pretty to get this baby running!

Re: Nightmare Engine Rebuild
 

To bad that he messed up a good engine. You can take it to a shop that knows what they are doing and get over size seats. They make them with the same size bore, but a larger OD. You can also get them thicker.