Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

We're building a 28 Roadster with an original Miller / Cragar OHV conversion. It's a B Block, and when we got it it had the original Cragar Valve cover on it.

Is there any way to tell what year it was made? I see there's some casting #'s on the outside and some markings under the cover. There's also a 1947 stamped under the cover. Is that the manufacturer date or a re-build date?

Any help is appreciated. Here's a pic.

Thanks in advance

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

I can't help you, but all I can say is, "WOW"! That thing is awesome!

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Wow is right!!

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Information from The Miller Dynasty, by Mark Dees 1993-

Harry Miller had Leo Goossen design heads for the Model A in 1929, a hi-comp flathead, the eight valve overhead and a DOHC head. Miller's business ventures at the time were associated with the Schofield Corporation (maybe due to Harry's muddled financial situation? My comment, not Dees) but things never went well and eventually Harry regained some equipment, tooling and patterns and some cash. The tooling and patterns for the Model A heads had been sold in the Schofield bankruptcy proceedings for $40,000 to Harlan Fengler, president of the Cragar Corporation. Craney Gartz, heir to the Crane Plumbing Corporation was the principal behind Cragar. When Cragar began to produce heads in 1931 they changed the left side of the head. Goossen's design had the left side cast vertical and Cragar produced heads are slightly slanted inward. Original Miller-Schofields are rare, produced for less than one year.
George Wight of Bell Auto Parts revamped the design and placed the intake ports on the left side at the same time enlarging them. Most agree that the larger ports were more a detriment than a benefit. Wight also reduced combustion chamber volume but he shrouded the valves in doing that. No mention was made by Dees as to when Wight introduced his "Improved Cragar".

The above is not verbatim, I just hit the high points of the story. My post was the long way around to providing a possible date of manufacture. I would imagine there might have been reproductions produced too, anybody know by who and when?

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

It's for sure an early, original Head. the engine/head came to us untouched since it was rebuilt by a local guy in the early 1950's. It was never fired since. we went over it and fixed a few issues and now its almost to fire.

Like I said, there is a stamped date of 1947 under the valve cover. I would just like to know if that's a manufacturer stamp or did some one do that upon a rebuild. Can you get any info from the casting # on the outside?

In the end the date doesn't matter. the car is being built as a pre-war lakes car, to compete for AMBR in January, and it will for sure pass for that when done. This is more for my own info.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Actually, from what I just found, the 1947 cant be a manufacturer date. looks like they went to a cross-flow style (intake on drivers side) after 1935. Anybody know if thats correct?

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

that is a good looking power plant
WOW x 10

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Yes, sounds correct. Bell Auto heads had the intake ports switched to the driver's side as I mentioned in my above post. Only info Dees didn't mention was when that happened; that 1935 date could be right, I have no info either way.
If the driver's side is not perpendicular to the deck then it's a Cragar produced between 1931 and 1935 according to your mention of the '35 date, otherwise it could be an original Miller-Schofield with a Cragar valve cover on it.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

'the above is not verbatim', nor is it accurate .

The 'slope head' was first attempt and head made. It was called this for the obvious slope inward from bottom to top on the plug side. Miller name was on this first slopehead rocker box. Scholfield was next in the mix with Miller and Miller/Schofield names were on that rocker box. After Schofield, Craney Gartz (Cragar) name was on rocker box. When Miller/Schofield parted ways, Miller was not paid (royalties ?) for use of his name, thus he would no longer authorize use of his name on rocker box.
Schofield produced the first change from slopeside head, a smart move by designer Goosen....to improve water jacket design on plug side. First of this kind is a Schofield OHV Head.
This all happen in a VERY SHORT TIME. Then tooling went to George Wright. However, as I understand the tooling issue, by this time, there were SEVERAL patterns/tooling spread around.

Somewhere in all this there is a lesson to be learned, maybe several, as this head venture went belly up quickly for all of these guys , financially / legally ?

A guy in Denver acquired one such set of patterns/tooling attempted to manfacture similar OHV Denver Head. He also went belly up financially and died a pauper as the story goes. Because of the date stamping, I'm guessing that this is likely a Denver head, right era ?

NONE of the original such heads that I've ever owned and/or seen have had any dating. I have not seen Denver head, so thinking that you may have one of those, as I understand that this head was latest ...40s/50s ?


These early heads (Miller/Schofield/Cragar) can definitely be identified...but NOT by the rocker box cover alone. Why, because there were MANY different ones made. Some while the maker made with his name, and many without any name , because they were inbetweeners, that is inbetween ownership when rocker boxes were necessary but disputes over or transferring of rights, etc.. As said the first box with only MILLER in huge box letters.

The actual Schofield then Cragar heads (without rocker box) can to identified positively, by marking on casting. I have an original Schofield. I also have several plain unmarked rocker boxes. If anyone has a rocker box with name Schofield name..ALONE (preferred) or with Miller name and Schofield name, I'd like to hear from you (PM):). Rocker box markings ( or no markings)show who made it and within what time period.
Just going from an ever fading memory......:(

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Could you post a picture of the drivers side as well please.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

OK, so Miller had the slop toward the block? Cragar was Flat?

Here's some pics.

The info is great. Thanks

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

My quick read of the info caused me to transpose the events as they in fact happened. Hardtimes is correct, as is the Dees book. The original M-S head was slanted inward, Cragar did change the casting in 1931.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

That IS the driver's side.:D

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
SLOPE sided, hot slop , just saying :D!

Give me Two pictures to look at:
Looking down on top of head....both sides complete front to back , with rocker box left on or off if you happen to have it off is ok.
The # that you show, was part/parcel of ALL such heads (Scholfield/Cragar).

However, Cragar (apparently/legally ?) had to ADD a marking to differentiate his head from Schofield....that's what I'm looking for.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

These work? Also, you mentioned another mark. I took a pic under the cover and with the 1947 stamp there is a hash type stamp. Mean anything?

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Maybe from your angle down there. ;)

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
Ha, you got my interest now ! What the heck do you have there :D
Nice clear pics, so no mistaking what's there and/or not there to be seen , eh ?

I DO NOT see any NI CR (NICHOL/CHROMIUM) on this head ...at all ? Am I missing seeing that...I have bad eyes ;)
If those letters are MISSING from head , please confirm that ?

The hash (#) mark and the date is a first for me. This 'date' being stamped in, as opposed to being part of casting process, indicates to me that this is an 'aftermarket' model. If the NI CR is also missing, who knows from what source this may have originated :confused:

And, the marking that I'm looking for is not there ! Nor is the NICR.

I have to say, that from several sources who say that there were MANY after market makers of this head , that is, mimicking Scholfield/Cragar original OHV Heads. I do not know the fact/truth of this and doubt that there were...'MANY'. However, stuff happens.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
If these pics come thru, this is a rebuilt original 1930 Scholfield.
Notice details of markings just outside of rocker box. Notice the same # and the NI CR

This rock box is but one of the many that were made/exist. It calls for high test fuel and high compression plugs...ha, I guess that 6.5:1 was high cr then, eh ?
This rocker box is evidence that miller / scholfield had made their split...as NO miller name..an inbetweener !

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

I have a miller head with the NICR marking. It has a miller carburetor and intake manifold. The rocker box has Miller Hi Speed head Los Angeles This head designed for Anti Knock Fuel and High Compression Plugs. The updraft intake is aluminum and the Miller Carburetor has a 4 or 5 jet system and a rotating venturi. Does anyone else have such a carb, or information on adjusting it? I also picked up a plain rocker box cover on EBay some years ago.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

There were no NI CR casted in that location.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Vince,
Nice :) !
I've got the nos HEAD for that gasket set :D !

You are amazing , in coming up with this stuff constantly.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Not to step on Stokers thread, as I think that he has his answer, i.e.- not a miller/scholfield/cragar. My best guess is Denver OHV Head..

Does your Miller have any other markings on top of head ..outside ..of rocker box ?
Yeah, if you compare your rocker box to my pictures box, you can see where the name Miller should have/would have been prior to parting of ways.
Can you show us any pictures of your setup ?

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
Nonetheless, very NICE setup :) ! Hope that it runs well for you.. Do you have inserts or original babbitted rods/mains. Stock oil setup or full flow/filtered.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

It's got inserts in it. The story on the engine is it was last re-built in 1954 in Pomona by a guy named Ralph McVay. The engine was never fired after that.

Here's a pic of how we got it.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hardtimes,
I will try to post pictures. It does have some other markings...a part number? ending in -E. Miller is before the High Speed on your box.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

One more picture.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

I bought an original CRAGAR from Steve at Bert's in Denver. He has a lot of info. Mine is 1935

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
You have done a very nice job with this equipment, evidenced by before/after pics:cool: ! Do you have a Cragar intake to go with the engine or is that a Zepher 2x2 ?
Interesting that you've got an engine 're-built' many decades ago and not run. Have you taken it down for inspection or just let her rip :) !
Lately , I've seen some real high asking prices on several such (not run) engines said to be re built in the past. Guess I'm just a chicken when it comes to the expenses , in todays money, to do a good job....just to take a guys word. Tear it down for inspection, I say:eek:..ha !

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey midgetracer,
Great pics, thanks for sharing :) !
Looks like you've got it near running, eh ?
I notice that you've got BOLTS , is that what you use to fasten head down ? I've talked to several guys who have used bolts also. Something to do with how close these heads , when assembled, come too close to firewall for stud use ?
Yes, your rocker box with Miller name juxtaposed to my same rocker box without miller name, are examples of what I was saying about time table of events of ownership shifts.
It's an interesting subject (rocker box development with these heads/ownership). A story by itself. I've seen where guys have actually carved off name(s) off of these covers. Probably as many reasons for doing so, back in the day, as there were guys. Also heard that miller name was ground off prior to sale, to use up existing stock...evidenced by faint tool marking where miller was on box. As these developed, at one time, BOTH miller and schofield names appeared same rocker box.
There must be a dozen or more varieties. Don't know what Denver head used, plain or what ? The neatest one that I've seen, is the huge MILLER word/name on a first slope head...rare. The best looking, IMO, is the Cragar /Hollywood version. They ALL fit each head, just interesting history of speed.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

'some other markings'...
Is there an (large) A on corner, outside of rocker box ?

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

All I can see is the sump!!:D

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

It's got the zepher intake. We did tear it down and go over it. Had a couple minor things we had to fix, but it's all taken care of now.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Your head does have the original type rocker arms and wing nuts to hold the cover on. Both are from early Buick, 6-cyl. engines, 1928 or so. Denver Millers had Denver, CO cast on their covers. Don't think there were 'many other copies' of heads although every body and his brother did make covers. Also, most Cook (Cyclone) OHV heads had Cragar covers because Ledington could buy them from Bell Auto Parts cheaper than he could make them. Interesting discussion!

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

In addition to the casting marks in your picture below, my original Cragar has an large embossed 'A' to the left of the section with the 50079-E outside of the rocker cover. It also has a Cragar rocker cover with vintage Buick rocker arms.

This 'B' engine was one of Wes Cooper's and has been in our '31 cabriolet for over 40 years. I am also interested if there is any way to date the head.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey mngreen,
Thanks for sharing your engine pic :) !
That LARGE ...A...is the indicator that yours is a 1930(or so) CRAGAR !
As said, Craney must have either wanted to or had to (legally) add the A to his casting, to show differentiation from Scholfield original 'square shoulder' head...both heads duplicates, except for the Cragar A.
I say '1930 or so'....because contrary to rumors...I was NOT there :D !
But, if you study the history of EACH of these businessmen , especially head making longevity of involvement of Miller, Scholfield and Craney Gartz, it was astounding ,IMO, how short a time these three were directly associated with making this cast iron head.
It appears that MONEY , foundry and legal problems plagued these guys involvement.

It's interesting to me, to note the rocker arm strategy /use also. As Jim B says, they (probably the 'brain' Goosen) figured out that the head could be built using already available rocker arm assemblies from the Buick. Some say that they scavenged junked Buicks for rocker assemblies. Frugal, I say, as one Buick assembly would make 11/2 heads !
BTW...don't know about Denver head, but All others mentioned here used the same casting # as on your head, i.e.- 50079-E

Could you tell me , if you are using studs or bolts to fasten your head ?
And, did you purchase engine from Wes Cooper...good story.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Jim,
Wonder if anyone has and can show a Denver, Co cover ?
I understand that this head maker had terrible results with getting any good Foundry castings and that not many made it to use even with welding up defects, etc.
I hear that HE died as a pauper and that no one even knew of his death. And , that by sheer happenstance, a guy who owns/operated Model A parts business, came upon yard sale and 'rescued' head stuff (tooling/parts ?).
Sad story , indeed, if true.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Hey Stoker,
You do nice work !
I have couple single alum Cragar downdraft intakes. They both have/need one ear repair. Just saying, if you are looking. These Cragar parts are still out there and appear from time/time...and are worn, eh .

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

It has bolts attaching the Cragar head.

The 'B' engine was acquired as-is from Wes Cooper at his rod shop in Burbank/Glendale area by the second owner in the early 1970's (we are the third). I am told it was one of his old racing engines that he retired. It also has pressure oiling to the mains, inserts, counter-balanced crank, possibly an iskendarian cam (?), lightened flywheel, V-8 clutch, Stromberg 97 carb, Burns intake and ceramic headers. Everything else (other than the engine) is completely stock Model A.

Re: Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help
 

Sounds like WE owe guys like Cooper/Brierley/Winfield, et. al,. a debt of gratitude for their pioneering and passing on banger improvements for our touring engines, as well as race engine, eh :) !
I just fired off and runin a B that is a combo of all those guys contributions. It runs like a cat does from a greyhound :eek:

Be careful that it doesn't twist something stock... off ! Do you know bore/stroke #s ?