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First Jeep was a Ford with...... |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Good info, thanks
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... my first auto when i was 16 (along time ago) was a 1945 jeep. it had a willys logo on the body and ford on the hood. i had some tranny problems and found the transfer case had a smaller diameter middle shaft than the willys one. ford must have cut some corners. evedently ford didn't exactly copy the willys design. i suspect the jeep i had was pieced together with war surplus parts. i sure got a lot of mechanic experence trying to keep that thing running.
if anyone is interested there is a documentry on youtube on the history of jeep from early development to later civilian sales. very interesting if you have about an hour to kill. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... The first reconnaissance car (later called jeep) was built by Bantam. The gov then requested prototypes (meeting design requirements) to be submitted by auto manufactures. Willys, Bantam and Ford submitted their samples for testing. The Willys patern was chosen. During the war about 600,000 jeeps were built more than half by Willys. The Ford built jeeps had a Ford F on all bolt heads and stamped on most parts. Ford wanted the advertising to GIs and to not have their vehicles confused with the Willys vehicles although all parts were interchangeable. The Ford chassis was overweight and different from the Willys chassis. As a result the Ford vehicles exceeded the weight requirement more than Willys. Willys got the first big contract then Ford got a contract.
Bantam was not chosen to build jeeps but was chosen to build jeep trailers. At the time Bantam was a smaller company and not expected to be able to produce as many vehicles as were needed. The engine used was a flathead 4 cyl. I'm not sure about the transmission being from the Model A but it looked very similar in size with a transfer case bolted on the back. The Model A clutch disk will fit the jeep trans. Both vehicles have clever and simple designs and have lasted longer then expected. |
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There was/is a guy in Texas who has acres of those trailers and other military surplus vehicles, try getting one for less that $2000.00. The article said, "oldest existing Jeep"....Bantam was the first to build one for sure but....there is a restored Bantam in the UK today. |
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The transmission is no where close to the jeeps. The jeep was a Willys design and came out of their sedan cars. It was synchro mesh 2nd & third. Not a strong design however, it's brother a few years later the T-90, was much stronger. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I need to do some reading, but I believe all 3 makers (Ford, bantam, and Willys) went through several generations. All made multiple prototypes for study by the military, then there were fairly small numbers of true Ford and Bantams purchased and put into service.
I believe that the first jeeps in actions were these semi-production Bantams (Continental powered, as Bantam engines were far too small to consider) sent to the British army in Egypt. The Ford and Bantam models were dropped after the first purchase, which I think was in low hundreds of vehicles. There was also an intermediate Willys in this period, very close to the final model but with visible difference...also rare but briefly purchased. After all this stirring around the familiar MB Willys, containing features gleaned from all the experiments, was standardized along with its near clone Ford GPW and both were of course produced in large numbers. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... You guys know a lot about the history of the jeep for WWII. Glad to hear it!
I hope you don't mind me mentioning a few more things you already know but I just want to let other Model A people know that there is another historic, cleverly designed, simple, vehicle if they ever would like to get interested in another journey to explore and restore. The WWII jeep is another 45 mph vehicle that will go faster, but not for long. There are clubs locally and nationally (MVPA) to discover. There are restored Bantam jeeps, Willys MA and MB, Ford GP and GPW and a full line of repo parts. It would probably be better to find one that is done and improve it. The link below contains some history about the jeep but is overly slanted to the Ford jeeps. "Pigmy" was a nick name for an early vehicle submitted by Ford for evaluation. It was officially called the Ford GP if I am not mistaken and it was evaluated along with the earlier Willys MA. The final names were MB and GPW although they were known as just "jeeps" to everyone. My point here is that Ford did not develop the vehicle by itself. Again the final pattern chosen was the Willys http://www.recoilweb.com/commemorati...ys-104477.html |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... i have heard that the ford jeeps were supposed to have interchangeable part, but the intermediate shaft on my transfer case was definitely smaller than the willys one. there was a local garage here that worked on jeeps and he found me a used shaft that was better than mine. i'll bet there were other variations as well between the manufacturers. i don't remember any ford logo on parts, but i was only 16 at the tine and knew very little about such things. it was all i could do to keep that thing running driving like H... and knowing little about maintenance, had a lot of fun thoug.
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Image below is of the 42 Ford GPW referenced. |
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Cruising off road and through the woods at five mph making your own road is a lot more fun than doing 60 mph on the highway. I've been told the Model A did pretty well off road back in the day too. With the tall tires, high clearance and that low first gear with that heavy flywheel I would think it would do pretty good.
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... oh dont get me wrong I'd love to have a ww2 era jeep and actually go off road but around here that means driving an hour+ to be able to do that legally...
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Back in the mid '50's, my Dad borrowed a Jeep to do some work around our church. When I saw the Ford script on the back, I just had to have one. Never happened -- got a Model A instead.
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I have an unused cluster gear that came with a tag reading Ford-GP-A-3113. It has the same dimensions as the Model-A cluster gear. I found it an estate sale of a guy that was into old Jeeps years ago. Maybe this is from one of the prototype Ford Jeeps?
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... You make me wonder?
Somebody on here mentioned the A transmission was modified for the Willys which had synchromesh. The clutch disk is interchangeable and probably the cluster gear is the same as posted above. Would the Willys syncromesh parts fit in the Ford box? Someone said the ford tranny would not be strong enough for the Jeep, but when the transfer case is bolted behind the Willys transmission a lot of the stress on the transmission would be moved to the transfer case gears. So, if the gears in both boxes were the same, would the Willys syncro parts fit the Model A gears? And would they fit in the Model A box? Is that how those Model A syncromesh transmissions are put together? |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... A tranny needs to withstand a certain amount of torque, and the torque through the tranny would be the same if the transfer case is one to one, but will drop if the transfer case gives a geared down ratio.
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Interesting! I looked it up, the CJ 2A had a rear diff ratio of 5.38. The WWII diff was probably 4.88.
The transfer case and gears give the CJ 2A Jeep a "crawl ratio of around 38.8:1". It was a 60 hp flathead engine. The 60 hp was at at 4000 rpm according to what I found. Torque was 105 at 2000 rpm. Those engines did scream quite a bit! Would the Model A transmission gears hold that torque with a 5.38 or 4.88 differential? Could the Model A and the jeep transmission have held the same gears? If so, could the syncros used in the jeep be used in a Model A? Somebody on here knows! |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I believe the model A transmissions were only used in the GPs. And maybe not even the later GPs. When the GPWs debuted they used the same T84 Warner transmission as the Willys. The W in GPW stood for Willys as in Willys pattern. G-government, P-80" wheelbase
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... G government, P 80 inch W Willys pattern. Something else I didn't know!
I'm curious if the T 84 was from the Willys car? I always had thought it was without actually knowing. Early GP with Model A transmission rings a bell but don't remember completely if I once read that. It certainly makes sense. After the GP the Ford gear set might have been used to make the T 84 transmission. The original Willys car trans. might not have been strong enough for use in the Jeep or maybe Willys used the Ford gear set in the Willys cars and the Jeep? I tried yesterday to find if the T 84 trans. used the Model A gear set but no success. I couldn't find if the T 84 was used in the 37 to 41 Willys car either. I did find some surprising crossovers for other parts though. Again, the difference is the syncromesh gears. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Let's set the record straight.....The transmission that was used on the Willy's jeep was made by Borg-Warner and it was the T-84. When Ford was given the plans to make the jeep because Willy's could not keep up with the demand, they started building the jeep. The Ford transmission was a copy of the T-84. It had the Ford script letter "F" to distinguish the part away from the Willy's Borg-Warner T-84. Ford was frugal, he didn't want to warranty any Willy's parts. Smart I guess, but he was given the plans free of charge. He supposedly was extremely upset when the government canceled the 15th contract. The reason was the war was coming to an end.
Believe it or not it was not a very durable transmission. It was from the Willy's sedan that they were making before the war. During the war, they would simply change out transmissions and move on. Maybe that's why the jeep seemed so tough and durable. Many do not know, but France obtained the right to produce our jeep up until about 1962. Many parts people here travel there yearly to buy parts. The T-84 transmission case has "WOF" stamped on it. It stands for "Willy's of France". |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... The transmission was indeed not a dandy. That's why the civilian jeeps were equipped with the T-90.
I am sure Ford's part number for the transmission used in the GP was GP 7000. Neither the A transmission or N series (tractor) engine were up to the task. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... 100% accurate! The T-90 was so much stronger that many guys would even put them behind a Chevy V8 or the more popular Buick V6. I only got around 20,000 miles though, until the syncho hub would lock up in my V8 jeep. Either way, it was way more durable. Could you put the T-90 in a Army Jeep from WWII? Yes, but you had to cut the floor out for the trans & tower to fit. Later down the road. you could now use an automatic with the shortened tailshaft. You are constantly fighting a length problem because the transfer case takes up driveshaft space.
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If Ford used a tractor engine, it would have been the 9N, released in 1939. It was basically half of the 239 Mercury V8, also released that year. This four cyl. was 119.5 cu. in. and the pistons, rings, valves and lifters were a direct swap with that V8. The starter and oil pump were from the V8 60. It made for an efficient, compact package. Unlike that lump of a Fordson engine which dates back to 1917. |
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Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... The only remote item that the Ford Fordson tractor motor and the Willy's designed L-134 motor had in common was the color. And that was grey. Willy's motors were sprayed olive drab at the factory.
Interesting to note: Ford engine blocks were weaker then their Willy's counterpart as they were more susceptible to cracks under the distributor boss. |
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http://www.jeepcollection.com/contact/ |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Let's set the record straight..... There was no T 86 transmission. It was a T 90 for civilian Jeeps after the war.
WOF - Willys of France bought a licence to manufacture the Willys design in a town north of Paris and did so for ten years up to about 1960. The WOF Jeep was fitted with a 24 volt electrical system, electric windshield wipers and was given the designation of M 201. WOF was cast on the side of the engine and trans(I saw those engines and a few M 201 Jeeps brought to the US by private parties). I bought a repro body tub made in France and imported by a military dealer. It was probably not made by WOF as some companies were producing replacement tubs in France for the M 201 by the time I got interested in Jeeps. It was pre drilled for everything and might have had a heavier metal floor than the original Willys, but I could be wrong about that as I never measured it (the front of that tub was surprisingly heavier than it looked). Over the time period mentioned WOF made about 25,000 Jeeps (they had plenty of American Jeeps left behind as well as a huge supply of spare parts). France was the favored port of entry and departure during the war. US production in four years was close to 600,000 total. I'm thinking a WWII Jeep done up correct might draw more attention than a Model A if both were parked at a late model car show. They are both historic vehicles worth saving and they are both parade worthy vehicles. Although, I sometimes wonder why the Model T doesn't get more interest. |
Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I meant T-84 and typed T-86. I was also wrong on Switzerland while I meant France.
I'll stop doing 3 things at a time! |
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