Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I've also posted this over on the HAMB, but am looking for the expertise that I know exists on these 2 forums.

Ok...back story (it's long (sorry) but I want all the gurus on this board to have all the facts)...freshly rebuilt by previous owner 59AB, seems as though no expense was spared...had never been started.

Combo: bored .080", new pistons, balanced (bills to prove), Isky Max-1 spec cam (copy of Isky), Harmon Collins dizzy, Eddie Meyer (original) heads and Eddie Meyer (original) dual carb intake (with rebuilt 94's), new stock fuel pump.

First time start-up last week...primed carbs through vents...fired right up...but noticed the beehive filter was leaking (gushing actually) around the top seal (not tight enough)...shut down...tightened filter top, wiped up mess and re-started...engine noisy (similar to an sbc lifter clatter)...noticed low oil pressure (on the electric gauge looked to be around 10 lbs)...shut down. Decided to remove the beehive filter from the equation. Removed lines and installed plugs. Re-started, still low oil pressure, clatter continued and also noticed the stock (new) fuel pump did not seem to be delivering as it should...shut it down again.

Started partial disassembly to look further into the various issues. I believe I've found the Fuel pump delivery issue - the fuel inlet line was too deep into fuel pump causing a near dead end of the line into the pump at the inlet. Shortened copper fuel line within inlet.

Removed intake to check for presence of the oil pressure relief valve in lifter valley...it was there...removed plug, turned motor over on 12v without pressure relief plug. I could easily stop oil flow at the pressure relief valve with my thumb while turning over engine on starter.

Pulled off timing cover and cam gear to check for presence of front oil gallery plug...it's there. In so doing, I notice the probable cause of the SBC lifter like clatter...the bolts holding on the distributor were too long and were self clearancing the aluminum cam gear (problem solved- shortened bolts). I assume the rear oil gallery plug is in place as there is no sign of oil dripping down the rear of the engine.

I then removed the oil pan, oil pump (new Mellings M-19), and disassembled oil pump (inside looked good, pressure relief valve in place). Turned oil pump by hand in a container of oil, self primed and delivered lots of oil just spinning with a couple fingers. It wasn't tight in the block, but it wasn't sloppy either.

Thinking all looked well, I packed the oil pump with petroleum jelly, re-installed the oil pump and pan, re-filled with oil, removed the electric oil pressure gauge and replaced it with a mechanical gauge (thinking I might have had a gauge or sender issue).

Turned it over on the starter with 12v (no plugs, or intake...not that the intake makes any difference) with the fuel pump rod in place...and still have barely 10 lbs of oil pressure.

What am I missing? Where do I need to look next?

I've removed to oil pan again, and have given the connecting rods a wiggle and shake. They have no perceivable up and down play, and a very small amount of lateral movement as is required (feels like a couple thousands...though I haven't put a feeler gauge to them yet).

I plan on picking up some platigauge tomorrow in order to check the mains and confirm the con rod clearances.

Thanks again in advance, Tim

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

why the petroleum jelly? may be plugging oil lines.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Packing the oil pump with petroleum jelly is SOP to prime the oil pump....

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I'm wondering if the oil passages in the rear of the block were modified to provide the 95% full flow oil filtering system? If so, in some methods used for machining this you cannot remove the oil filter and oil feed lines and plug those threaded holes in the rear of the block without completely cutting off the supply of oil to some of the main or rod bearings. There was a previous thread on this happening to one of our members and this destroyed some of his rod and main bearings. I hope that is not the same problem you are having.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

It happens occasionally the the oil pickup tube assembly is not securely brazed to
the small plate that attaches it to the pump body.
Charlie ny

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Maybe this one... a cautionary tale...


http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ghlight=siezed


Lonnie

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

It has not been modified for the 95% full flow oil filtering.

Charlie ny,

I don't remember the oil pickup tube being brazed to the pump body. I'll need to look at that more closely tomorrow when I'm back in the shop.

Thanks for the responses...Tim

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Are you sure of this and checked it yourself?


Lonnie

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

That clatter sounds like lack of piston to head clearance.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Low oil pressure can be caused by loose cam fit in the bearings. Someone could have put a cam with .010 under journals in the engine that has standard cam bearings. The oil is fed to the cam before going to the crank.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Yes, I looked specifically...the second hole has not been drilled (for the return line) and there is neither a grub screw, or cut threads to block the flow in the cross drilled area.

Thanks, tim

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Thinking further about this...when I put the oil pump pick-up screen in the container of oil and spun the gear with my fingers, it drew oil immediately at a very low and intermittent rpm (all that my 2 fingers could muster). The joint where the pick-up tube attaches to the plate that bolts to the pump was not submerged in the oil, so if it draws air, while in the motor, it should have drawn air during this test. I will look at it again tomorrow though.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Sadly, I think this is what I need to get into tomorrow. I've been trying to avoid having to remove the valves, springs, lifters and cam...but I think that is where I'm at now (I've no experience taking a flathead valvetrain apart...I'm hoping with it all being new, it will be forgiving in disassembly). Is there a way to measure the cam bearings without a dial bore gauge?

Thanks again, Tim

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I'll look into this further tomorrow, but I don't think it's a problem. I've had the heads off previously and I recall the pistons were down the hole a bit at TDC and the gaskets were copper and seemed of substantial thickness (I must admit that I didn't specifically measure them). That said, when I pull the heads to look at the cam and cam bearing diameters this will be looked at more closely.

I appreciate all the suggestions, Tim.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I just purchased a bunch of parts from an older man who has been building engines for years. The center journal has a groove around the circumference and one side was standard and the other was under size. He had put it in an engine and had the same problem you are having. When he took it apart he found the problem. He learned you have to check both diameters.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I interpret this as the 2 halves (top and bottom) of the centre main bearing...Am I understanding this correctly?

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Talking camshaft. The groove is circumferential in the center of the journal. On one side of the groove, the diameter was correct, on the other it was undersized. I reread my earlier post and see that I didn't make it clear I was talking about the cam.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Got it...thanks for the clarification. Engine is coming out of the car tomorrow and put on the stand for full tear down.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Are the cleanout plugs in the crank? Is the bushing for the fuel pump rod installed?

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I'm very interested in your problem, as I have an 8BA in a 40 with a simular problem.
It was totally rebuilt, everything new. It has good oil pressure on start up but goes to zero at an idle after warmed up. I have checked the relief valve on the oil pump, the pick-up, and the oil galley plugs, same as you. I have gotten about three thousand miles on it, it is quiet, carries 25-30 lbs at road speed when up to temp.I also have an Isky max 1, new cam bearings hummmm. I will read yor posting everyday, thanks Chuck S.

Could you use a pre-luber to pressurize it before pulling the cam?

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

You have done a good job checking every thing. My suggestion, I've done this many times on big truck engines. Remove the oil pan, hook up an oil pressure tank to the sender unit fitting hole, put a pan under the car to catch the oil, put pressure to the tank, look under the engine, see if you can see a lot of oil going past cam bearings, main bearings, or back of cam gear, ect. I have found the problem before. Walt

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Can't say I've looked for either of these items. The fuel pump rod stands nicely vertical in it's hole so I assume that the bushing is in place. I'll look for both these items when I get into the shop later today.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Thanks Chuck and Walt. I like the pre-lube oil pressure tank suggestion. I need to rummage around the shop to see what I can cobble together to make one this afternoon.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

What Walt says was going to be my suggestion too, I will also add that by changing the pressure in the tank (raising it) you can check where the relief valves open---a good bearing just drips slow

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

When you first started the engine you had oil to filter sound like good oil pressure .Now you have it removed and plugged.
Some times the block is modified for full oil flow check the block for any changes.
Also make sure the pickup tube and screen is good and clean.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Where was the return from the oil filter connected on the engine?

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

A few years back a fellow told me the new cam bearings had .006" clearance. I told him that was too much, so he line bored a set of .010 bearings. This made me think, I asuned thst new bearings would be right. Now I check this.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

The engine has not been modified for the full (95%) oil filtering. The oil filter return line is (was) connected to the fitting on the side of the oil pan. Currently, I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge threaded into the oil filter supply fitting (and the sender for the 2 electric gauges is in the normal position).

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Any way you could post a photo of the return fitting on the side of the pan. That is not a normal return location.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

First pic shows the non-drilled boss where the 95% oil filtration mod would require a return line, 2nd pic shows where the supply for the filter is usually connected (but now has the mechanical gauge connected), 3rd photo shows the fuel pump rod bushing in place (green is a bit of grease when I first installed the fuel pump rod), 4th shows the front fitting of the oil pan where the oil filter return line was connected and the last photo shows the inside of the oil pan at the oil filter return fitting.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

The oil supply and return look correct for the optional Ford filtering system. I have two oil pans (1942 29A) that have the same fitting on side of pan.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I always thought the return was in the dipstick boss?

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Yes it is. Later they used the a fitting in the dipstick boss.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Well, guess that totally takes care of the modified oil system issue! On to other areas.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

You are correct of course! I overstated that (or incorrectly stated that as the case may be). Just wanted to make sure he didn't have some internal modification to the oil system. But with the pan off all of that is answered.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

I have 3, 59AB's from a 1946 and they are all like this.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Ok...findings so far...using some fittings, a valve and my brake bleeder, I was able to apply a constant supply of 30 lbs of air (cleaner than what I expected oil might be, picture #3). Carefully listening with a piece of hose, I determined the most amount of air was coming from: the front oil pressure relief bleed off hole (behind cam timing gear) and at the front and center cam bearings.

I took apart the oil pressure relief valve and looking more closely, looked at a flat spot (see pictures 1 and 2...I had assumed previously that this was supposed to be there). Can anyone confirm whether it is supposed to be there or not? If not, can I turn it down in my lathe to create a smooth surface and then shim it back?...as for the air leaking at the cam bearings, I think it takes me back to full disassemble for proper measurements and to confirm what a number of you have suggested might be the cause (wrongly sized cam bearings and cam journals.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

The flat spot belongs there, but it is usually smoother in appearance.

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

Ditto JSeery!

Re: Freshly Rebuilt 59AB Help Needed, Near end of my Rope
 

That flat spot belongs there, it's a little rough but that's not the problem, you can install a couple of small flat washers in the cap to raise pressure on the spring, are you sure the plug is installed in the front of the main oil line behind the cam gear? I put oil in the pressure tank and force it in to the engine, if that plug is out oil will running out by the front main. Walt