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British Built Flathead ID I am rebuilding a Ford UK built flathead V8 which came from a wartime fire pump. Does anyone know how I can date the block? It has 4 44 cast into the top of the bell housing which could be April 1944 but could also be nothing to do with it! Does anyone know when the Ford UK flathead family tree branched away from ford USA?......1938?
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1516/...f89225b2_z.jpg https://flic.kr/p/Fka39S https://flic.kr/p/Fe48aM |
Re: British Built Flathead ID If you click on the links he has posted some very good photos to help I.D. the engine
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Hi Alastair, I've been trying to do the same and date my British 21 stud engines. I've not found much documented information and have had to piece together what little I do know. There's a number stamped into the inlet manifold face above number 8 cylinder. It should start B18F and may have some stars. I don't know what the stars mean but the B denotes British built, 18 is the 221 21 stud engine and F means that it is for right hand drive applications, even if it was used in a pump or generator. There will then be a 7 digit number. I've got a late'50/early '51 engine with a 513xxxx engine, and a possibly 1954 engine with a 580xxxx number. I've also got an engine that may have been rebuilt in period and has a completely different set of numbers and letters! Good luck, John
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Re: British Built Flathead ID That looks very close to my 1940 block, but the pan freeze plugs are missing, oh and it's a 21 stud. Is it factory sleeved?
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Re: British Built Flathead ID It is basically a 1937 engine built in England through the war. It is set up for full flow oiling, maybe for the oil cooler in a Bren carrier. Numbers in the 18-### are from USA 221 number series, but will be higher than the USA numbers in Van Pelt's list becaus made years after 1942.
This engine (without full flow) was used for civilian stuff before and after the war, used in many carriers, trucks, and cars during. All the British built stuff used this engine, I think, but England also used lots of Canadian 221 and 239 24 stud engines in the many vehicles they imported during the war. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Looking at pics, I see you have a lot more of the carrier! That extra oiling port connected I think to an elaborate thermostatic valve and a loop of finned cooling tubing.
Engine in general will be same as a USA '37 except for the oiling system and the possibility it may have locked rod bearings instead of full float. If it used USA distributor I think it would have been the 1933-36 type (never superseded over there), but it could also have had a Lucas. I think English carriers used a one-barrel carburetor with an adaptor to the two barrel manifold. |
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Re: British Built Flathead ID I think folks we will have to officially recognise Bruce as the "guru" on this site when it comes to flathead history. I never cease to be amazed by his worldwide knowledge in this area and I'm learning lots of new stuff. Dagenham sure produced some unique stuff for those of us interested in trivia. Thanks Bruce. This is an interesting thread (Thanks Ajmac for starting it).
GB |
Re: British Built Flathead ID There's a moderately scarce book out there from Ford England..."Ford at war"...not much tech, but lots of pictures. Ford built and rebuilt engines throughout the war...most spectacular picture shows a new V8 block being drilled f0r nearly all of its bolt holes simultaneously, a whole forest of drills attacking from all sides and everything half obscured in a shower of coolant!
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Re: British Built Flathead ID One of my engines came out of a motor-generator unit and had the single choke carb, no oil filter, a Lucas magneto, double sheave water pumps and a 12V starter - the matching 12V generator didn't come with it when I bought it. It also has both inlet and exhaust valve inserts.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID As I have remarked before on another site, The 21 stud Ford V8 Engine with the water pumps on the block were built in England from 1937 to the end of the war and when the war finished there was a lot of these V8 engines stored in various Depots around England owned by Ford for the military use, as the military no longer required these V8 engines Ford collected them and used them in the Ford Pilot and Thames truck vehicles. Apparently there were no 21 stud V8 engines made after the war. I received this information from good authority in England.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID That throws some light on the Thames truck I saw out the back of the gem fields with a 21 stud engine in it,I thought it was not the original engine.Maybe it was.
will be out that way in a month or so so will have another look. Lawrie |
Re: British Built Flathead ID I've always heard that the war department purchases didn't really happen until the part or assembly was used by the military. I know that Royal Enfield WD motorcycles were also taken back to be distributed by the sales organizations after being repainted to civilian specs at the factory in Redditch. This way the WD didn't have to worry about new surplus costing them an arm and a leg but the manufacturers did have a lot of work to do to store and sell the stuff after the war.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Everything looks standard, even the bearings look like new, I guess it had very little running during its life as a pump.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1680/...cd31671c8e.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1640/...bc8bd49245.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1644/...f015b800cd.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1622/...2697bc4826.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1514/...dcff256b9e.jpg The engine is not for my Loyd carrier, that is already rebuilt, its a 24 stud USA built 221 supplied to England during WW2. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7098/...33a1ae0f3b.jpg Then... https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7327/...5b0b03733e.jpg Now |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Many thanks for the information guys.
I noticed that 1937 USA Flatheads have core plugs in the bottom face of the block where as this UK unit does not. I wonder when the British production changed to this casting or if they were always without core plugs? https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1619/...55134a4e86.jpg |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Alistair,
I've had/got English 21 studs with and without the plugs in the pan rail. A note on these English engines, the crank is different to the US 1937- early 38 ones, the English war time cranks have two oil holes per rod journal also the front (snout) of the crank is the same as the later 24 stud cranks, as in its longer than the US 21 stud, I have one running 8BA front parts, crank pulley just plopped straight on, with its seperate "seal" collar. Martin. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID I see from your pics the rods are early types, these rods (in my experience) use the US style fully floating bearings, can't see a bearing tab notch on your pics? Has yours got one or two oil holes per rod journal?
Most of the British 21's I've played with use 21A or 91A rods that use thick locked in bearings. They have the tab notch machined in. These ones had two oil holes on the rod journals. Martin. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID ajmac: I see what appears as large core plugs (2) at the rear of the block above the bell housing. You may be aware Ford USA had a problem removing core material from the rear of the blocks, through the small pan rail plugs. The large core plugs at the rear of the block may have fixed this problem. Are there any part numbers on the rods? How about the main bearing caps, in the USA they have a part number prefix are yours marked?
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Re: British Built Flathead ID The rods are marked 91A and the crank cast date tag says 44 which I presume corroborates the 1944 production date.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1538/...4a78a3e384.jpg
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1546/...9d7ddb165a.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1498/...e73e37e830.jpg A few extra photos from cleaning the rods and crank. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Interesting,
Those rods are NOT 91A rods, the caps are but the rods ain't ! The rods are 48's!! When you've had a bunch of these flathead parts in your hands, you can tell at a glance the rods ain't 91 or 21A which are much beefier where the beam meets the journal area. The earlier rods (like yours) are petty slender down there. All the rods in your earlier pic are 48's, they all got 91A caps on them? I've seen mixtures of 21A and 91A rods in a war time flat motor, but not swapped caps. Martin. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID I guess all sorts of odd things went on at Dagenham during the war, it must have depended on what they had in stock. I will check the other rods for cap numbers.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Only 3 of the con rods have 91A caps, the rest match the rods. As you say, all the rods are the slim 1937 style ones not the later type with strengthening ribs near the big end. I will add a photo with a comparison against one I removed from a wartime US 239.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Ford UK Rod on the right.
Ford USA 1943 Rod on the left. https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1522/...58d56979c9.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1663/...077439e769.jpg |
Re: British Built Flathead ID I just discovered that the oil pump is beyond repair....can anyone help with a second hand unit?
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Re: British Built Flathead ID I hope my pilot motor has rods a bit thicker in the uppers than these pics show.
Will know soon when I pull it out . |
Re: British Built Flathead ID http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...p;d=1458685896
This picture shows two 21 Stud Ford V8 Heads that were for sale at a recent Swap Meet. I believe that the one with the Firing Order cast into it is from the British Ford Pilot. The other "plain" Head is probably Canadian, from a 1937 or early 1938 Ford V8. What do other Barners think? |
Re: British Built Flathead ID "Nervous Bob Froch ought to be able to help you out.
http://www.bobfroch.co.uk/ I have some parts from a 21 stud motor that might be useful to you, I'm in the Midlands though, (Solihull), Bob is over your way. Mart. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Quote:
Thanks for the link mart. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Cleaned up half the Rods this evening and one of them has a different little end to all the others. Is this an earlier version (although it has the same forging number) or has a machining step been missed? Note that the rod on the left is on with the 91A cap.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1591/...0a7cf9cba4.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1571/...25e6b75cfe.jpg https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1626/...195c56165c.jpg |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Alastair, don't quote me on this, but I think that is the factory method for balancing the rods. Hopefully someone will confirm or refute.
Mart. |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Marks in lower picture are I think Brinnell hardness tests. I knew Ford did 100% Brinnell testing on pitman arms and such...never noticed it on rods. I wonder if Ford tested all of them and I just haven't noticed?
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Re: British Built Flathead ID 5 Attachment(s)
Hello Fellow searchers for info,
I have a collection of bits and 2 complete engines, one less it's ancilliaries and one complete which, when assembled I can run, hopefully. The best engine has 3 1/16" +030 bore but crank and rod bearings are standard size and tolerances appear to indicate that it has not had too much running time. I am restoring a 1948 Vosper launch so my engine is marinised. I am having some trouble determining exactly what I have with regards to the engine I will use once rebuilt. It has engine block with cast in markings D29U with number 7 below that. There is a hand engraved engine number, R1288903C located on the face of the top where the inlet manifold is fitted. Please refer to the pictures. The con rods are stamped 21A with seperate shells which have a land on one side. The pistons are 3 ring type . Again please refer to the pictures. From reading through various bits of excellent historical info posts, most indicators eeem to place it around 1938. It has water pumps in the block which contain the engine mounts, it has 21 stud heads and a single carb. I also have 3 different distributors. One magneto, which does produce a spark, one late style lucas, which although dirty is complete with a good cap plus an early football style. Again please see the pics. I am wondering if I would be able to fit the later style to my engine version? To conclude, any help to identify what I have would be very much appreciated as would be the identification, specifically of the rod bearings,which have markings ET6 6213 and 6214 with the letter G inside a box and AB stamped near the part numbers. These appear to be standard size. Again please see the pics. I have a set of new main bearings and would like to replace the rod bearings but if I can't find any, they are serviceable. Many thanks to all the contributors that have made my initial investiations bear some fruit, I really hope there might be someone out there who can add to that. :) |
Re: British Built Flathead ID This is a great compilation from 38_coupe:
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...4280&showall=1 38_coupe and I consolidated this into one pdf file. From the link below, open "Engine Identification". https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2ua1s...=qe0z6zw2&dl=0 https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...6&d=1739280599 |
Re: British Built Flathead ID Glen I’m getting an error on the pdf link.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Yep that works, Thanks for your research.
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Re: British Built Flathead ID You're welcome!
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Re: British Built Flathead ID I have 37 motor with the firing order on the heads. Do we assume those heads were British or Canadian war time only?
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Re: British Built Flathead ID Alistair.New and used oil pumps for sale on UK ebay.
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