Oil level
 

I have been regularly topping up the oil level to the dipstick mark and then leaving a trail of oil on the road on sharp bends. I have the oil catcher fitted which overflows. The car has been using up to 2 pints every 40 miles so very thirsty.
I stopped topping it up to see if it stopped leaking at a lower level - and sure enough it has. Oil level is still on the dipstick but about 1 inch lower than the mark. The level has stayed constant over the last 150 miles and no trail of oil.
What is the correct oil level? Am I at risk of running it too low? What is the correct marking of a dipstick?

Re: Oil level
 

I always recommend leaving the level half way between F and L.

Re: Oil level
 

Sounds like you may be overfilling your oil. When you drain your pan and refill with fresh oil you should only add 4 quarts of oil which should bring it up to the full mark. Just pulling the drain plug does not purge all the oil as some is held in the dipper wells. If you fill a totally dry pan after an engine rebuild you should add 5 quarts. Your engine may be fitted with an incorrect dipstick which is causing your problem. Check the below link which will help you identify if your dipstick is the correct one. http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...rect+dip+stick

Re: Oil level
 

My first A did the exact same thing, while I do not believe I was overfilling I suspect an A with a leaky rear main will find a lower level where it leaks a lot less. Not scientific, just my thoughts based on experience.

Still eying the '30 roadster somewhat suspiciously, as he (Clyde) has all fresh fluids throughout but does not seem to leak at all other than a slight drip at the oil plug. I try not to turn my back on him because he might be up to something...

Re: Oil level
 

Really useful Roadrunner. Non of our problems are new I guess - I just couldn't find the earlier thread with the search function - is it me?
I will check my dipstick against the measurements and report back.

Re: Oil level
 

a tight motor can be run with 5 QTS in the crankcase without leaking. running a new motor low on oil does not make sense. it should not leak

Re: Oil level
 

When I change the oil and add 4-1/2 qts it is right on the Full mark. 5 qts and it's over full.

We know about the dipper tray retaining half a quart and all, but what always puzzled me was, the owner's manual says 'add five quarts' and I'm sure that back in the Model A days that is what everyone did. From the dealership to the local Texaco station because that is what the manual AND the lube charts said to do. Nothing was ever said, that I can find, to only add four-and-a-half quarts.:confused: Ford never specified that.

So, if five quarts worked out in 1928 thru say at least after WWII why is it different now?? Are we missing something? It didn't seem to be a problem back then. The old timers from those days are gone we can't ask them their take on this:eek:

I would think that the Model A Ford engine, being a low oil pressure system that was engineered for splash-and-dip, would benefit from a little bit MORE oil in the pan vs. less???

Re: Oil level
 

IF it's COMMON to leak on the "F" mark, WHY didn't Henry compensate for it??????????????????????
Bill W.

Re: Oil level
 

Firstly - from the photos in the other thread, it seems I have an original dipstick which is a good start.
Second - my oil level has settled at 7 3/8" from the top which is just above the Low mark. Note measurements from the TOP of the stick which is what matters.
My take on this is that the FULL mark is the recommended level for filling a completely dry engine. Some then goes into dipper tray, some in the valve chamber and some in the oil filter if you have one. The dipper tray ensures that the correct amount of oil is always available to the big ends even when the level is very low. With the level on my car, I'm sure there's plenty left for the bearings.
Henry would have almost certainly have designed the engine to tolerate low oil levels for the careless owner.
Anybody disagree?

Re: Oil level
 

There is not much info to go on, so, its all subjective.

Over all these years, one probably doesn't know if the correct dipstick is being used. Plus, a lot can depend on whats in the oil pan. If the oil pan is full of crap then the dipstick reading doesn't mean much.
If the oil pan [and dip tray] is clean and dry, add 4 qts of oil and check the dipstick. If the dipstick reads correctly, fine. If not, just mark it. Then add the 5th qt and check it and mark it again.
One needs a good reference to work from.

Since your engine is throwing out the oil and then maintaining the level, then thats probably where your engine wants the oil level to be. But, I would still prefer to know just exactly how much was in it.

Re: Oil level
 

Make sure that both halves of the dipstick fit firmly in the hole in the block. I've seen where some have not done this; (ie: only inserted until the short tang hits the block) then proceeded to fill it to the Full line. That puts it about 2 quarts too full. And YES, it leaked like a sieve.

Re: Oil level
 

I had some of the same issues. The dipstick on the top is the one that was in my car when I bought it. Note that the length and the full mark are almost a half and inch different from the correct stick.

Re: Oil level
 

Can you explain to this ignoramus what this oil catcher is? How about a pic?

Re: Oil level
 

Got the wrong words - Rear Main Janitor A-6768

Re: Oil level
 

Check out the description on Snyder's page, especially the download installation instructions:
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/rear-main-janitor

When I was using one, I put some oil absorbent pads in it, made cleanup a lot easier.

Re: Oil level
 

I recall Brent Terry commenting on the Rear Main Janitor and he said that it was a band aid fix, and that a properly restored engine would never need one.

I have to agree with that.

Re: Oil level
 

I only used one until I got it fixed so that it didn't leak anymore. That's why I started out by saying "when I was using one". I now have it sitting handily on the shelf in my garage as a reminder as to times past.

Re: Oil level
 

It is a depends for a old car.

Re: Oil level
 

I totally agree Bluesunoco. And now my oil level has stabilised near LOW on the stick I don't need one any more either
Could a high oil level be the fundamental problem leading to the folk law about A's leaking oil?

Re: Oil level
 

Now that you have confirmed that you have the correct dipstick and that you are filling with the correct volume of oil you must assume that your problem is elsewhere. Using 2 pints of oil in 40 miles is far from normal and should be addressed. Reducing the oil level to solve your problem would only be a band aid fix and also put you at risk of doing further damage to your engine.
There are many reasons for oil loss, more than likely your rear main bearing is very worn or badly damaged. Other problems which may also cause leaking include excess blow-by due to worn rings, restriction in your crank-case breather, oil return pipe in rear main may have broken off. Was your crankshaft modified to accept the modern rear main seal which has now failed.
Do you know the history of your engine. Is it just an old banger that has never been rebuilt. If it has had a rebuild, was it done by a competent builder. As Mitch said in a previous post "a tight engine is capable of taking 5 quarts of oil without leaking.

Re: Oil level
 

excellent

ask your new car dealer if they recommend to run the oil 1/2 qt or more low and would it void the warranty?
these cars are no different

if i had a choice i would rather leak oil than run it low

Re: Oil level
 

Thank you for your comments Runnerbun - and in principle I totally agree.
The car is a South African car now in the UK. The engine was 'rebuilt' in the 1990's by persons unknown and has done little work since. There is a ghost mark in the bores showing an extended period of inactivity. It starts on the button, pulls well, sounds sweet, very little vibration, never misses a beat, very little blue smoke, spotlessly clean inside and never overheats. Now it has stopped leaking oil at the slightly lower level I feel somewhat disinterested in taking it apart, spending loads of money for what seems to be little benefit. There's a few miles left in it yet.

Re: Oil level
 

I understand what you're saying but the reality is a Model A is very different to a modern car. Bearing sizes, seals, speed, stroke length, efficiency, compression ratio, oil pressure, splash/pressure lubrication, air and oil filters, tolerances, design life, dynamics/balance, engine management, gas flow, fuel injection, detergent oils, volume of oil..... They had to run on inferior lubricants, fuel and roads at much lower speeds.

Re: Oil level
 

bottom line is the proper specification for crankcase capacity...

Re: Oil level
 

Keep the oil level near "F" and toss it often (if you're not using a filter) oil is cheap...

Re: Oil level
 

Oil is very cheap - but it does make a mess. From this thread I am happy that the oil level that my motor has 'chosen' is just above the LOW mark but still within the recommended range - that's good enough for me.

Re: Oil level
 

since when is driving a quart low recommended:confused:

Re: Oil level
 

If the engine leaks with the right amount of oil. You have a problem with the engine..

Re: Oil level
 

My thoughts exactly Mitch. If you watch the 1928 DVD from MAFCA, 'Selling Ford Service' (very good video by the way) watch what the dealer says to the fellow who just bought a new 1928 Tudor. He is showing him around the car, opens the hood on the driver's side, shows him the dipstick and pulls it out, points to the 'F' mark and he says 'KEEP THE OIL HERE, ON THE FULL MARK "F"'.

Doesn't tell him to 'Keep it on the "L" mark which is 'Low'.;););) or else the motor will leak oil. This is it's sweet spot:eek::eek:

Re: Oil level
 

Like James Rogers I recommend keeping the oil level between F and L. Here's why: When running the valve galley is full of oil. When the engine is shut off the oil drains back to the oil pan and a lot of it drains back through the rear main oil return tube. It's designed that way and is the primary reason why the rear of the engine is lower than the front. If the oil level in the pan is too high the oil doesn't go through the return tube as fast as it does if the level in the pan is below the tube opening so some of the oil finds it's way out the back of the rear main bearing - there will always be a little clearance there where the oil can find it's way out. Remember there is no rear main SEAL. So, if the level in the pan is low enough that the return tube is not submerged the oil drains back more quickly and less oil tries to sneak out the back. That's why Ford put the hole and the large cotter pin in the flywheel housing. He knew some people would keep the oil full and some would leak out the back.

Re: Oil level
 

isnt the rear main drain tube always submerged in oil at 4 qts or 5 qts?
if it wasnt crankcase blowby pressures will force oil out the rear main and create a leak..the same as if the tube fell off or was cut to short..

i believe ford put the hole in the flywheel housing as a safety measure for the oil to escape when a motor was in need of having the clearances tightened or the babbitt was just worn out.
not because your running the level at the proper spec.

Re: Oil level
 

i never saw that video but it makes a point for sure. 85 years later rules and theorys seem to magically change

Re: Oil level
 

FWIW.. A Model A old timer I knew, who has now left this world, said to use only 4.5 quarts to prevent oil loss.

Who knows? Hey Henry!!

Larry

Re: Oil level
 

Proper Oil Level
Before starting the engine, make sure there is a sufficient
supply of high-grade engine oil in the oil pan. If there is not
enough oil, more should be added through the breather pipe
located at the left side of the engine (a metal cap covers it).
Five quarts of oil is the amount required in the oil pan.
To determine the correct oil level, use the indicator located
on the left side of the engine just to the rear of the breather pipe
(see Fig. 1), as follows:
Pull out the indicator--wipe it off-re-insert the
indicator and again remove it.
The mark made by the oil indicates its level. When the oil
reaches the point marked "F" on the indicator, it is at the
proper level. Under no circumstances should the oil level be
permitted to get below the point marked "L" as any attempt to
run the engine with too little oil may seriously damage the parts.
When replacing the oil level indicator, see that both the short
and long ends of the indicator enter the opening in the crankcase
and push the indicator all the way down (see Fig. 1).
Failure to insert both ends into the opening permits oil to
leak out.

Re: Oil level
 

Thanks Mike. As I suspected - the F means Full and L means Low (not empty). It does not mean Essential and Unacceptable. Any point in between is OK. So if I maintain my engine oil closer, but above L to prevent it leaking, and under no circumstances below L my warranty should be ok.

Re: Oil level
 

Gadget, FWIW going back to my post at the beginning of this, as well as considering a comment you made (I think, admittedly not taking the time to re-read this now lengthy thread) about maintianing engine status quo (my words, i.e. not looking to rebuild at this time & keep it running), I would just share this. IMO a good practice to top off knowing you will lose some each time you run the car, and in my experience only, not speaking for others here, I found that I would lose a certain amount of oil whenever the level was closer to F than L, but it did not ever go lower. In other words, I never encountered a dry stick. This is with an essentially sound (easy starting in any condition, good running, no noises or smoke at all) but older engine with a badly leaking rear main. I think, if your intent is not to rebuild soon and your not planning a cross country trip, or otherwise really tax it, your OK if you do not find the stick dry. Just my opinion based on my experience, had the car a long time and never got around to the rear main, which for the use we put on it at the time, maybe 300 - 500 miles a year, was fine. It all depends on where you are with the car.

I know Mitch know his stuff and I believe he is correct on the tube location, but I thought it might be helpful to share the experience I had, my approach, (fill to F and let it leak out, figuring might as well start out in best possible light, but it would continiously find that level closer to the L mark and stay consistently - I learned this after monitoring due to concerns similar to what you seem to have), While not what I would expect from a fresh engine, I do not think your engine is in iminent danger given much closer monitoring of oil level than the average owner likely did back when these were new or relatively new used cars.

Re: Oil level
 

Thanks Steve_Mack. I have heard it said that an engine runs best of all at the end of it's life. I take this as a warning, but it is running far too well to justify an expensive rebuild now. I've been running vintage machinery for over 45 years so do have some experience in this. It does get quite a bit of use through the year - it is the only vintage car in the UK to be licensed for commercial Private Hire use - I trade as www.vintageadventuretours.co.uk doing about 8000 miles per year. There is a spare rebuilt engine in the garage just in case. I will make a note to give feedback this time next year on this thread to let you know if it has survived.
I am a great believer that perfection, although ideal, is hard (and expensive) to achieve, but less than perfect is still good and brings a lot of stress free fun.

Re: Oil level
 

So that "A" is earning its keep - cool. Lots of interesting antique/vintage/specialty cars in the UK! A little OT but our other big car interest is in Mercedes Benz SL series cars which seem to have a big following in the UK despite being German. I initially learned a lot from some of the experts on those cars on your side of the pond. While not a true exotic, the all aluminum, DOHC engine and other technology in our SL is a constant reminder of how simple our Model A and T cars are to work on. :)

Would love an MG T-series car someday; although it may be just for looks. I tried a TC on for size this past fall and our Ford A roadster is a LOT easier to enter and exit. Good motivation to finaly drop those 30 pounds I guess...

Happy Motoring!

Re: Oil level
 

i stand by my statements on the correct and reccommended proper level.

Re: Oil level
 

Steve -We have a strong motoring following here in the UK. Loads of events going on - racing, trials, hill climbs, sprints, navigation and shows. The A has only recently been recognised here for just how good it is. And there are plenty of right hand drive cars for us - mine is from South Africa. The availability of parts is the clincher.

Mitch - You are of course right every time, but IMHO these cars mustn't be taken too seriously - 'Under no circumstances should the oil level be
permitted to get below the point marked "L" ' - is just fine.

Remember the old Dodge Brothers video - it's more fun getting them dirty than it is getting them clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=nq2jY1trxqg