Do you use a timing light ?
 

Hey guys, I'm working on a 50 car with a 8ba in it, there is a raised dot on the bottom pulley, and the pointer on the cover,
I always line the dot and pointer up, drop in the distributor, and kinda play with it from there.
I was wondering how to use a timing light ?

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Check youtube, I am sure there is a plethora of videos on this subject.
12 volt neg ground or 6 volt pos ground? Choose a timing light that is compatible with your battery voltage.
Attach the power leads to the correct battery terminals. Clamp on the #1 spark plug lead. Start engine, point the light at the dot, pull the trigger and note where the light
is flashing relative to the dot. Advance or retard the distributor - move in a CCW or CW direction. Correct timing is 'right on the dot'. Put a drop or two of white paint on the
dot, making it easier to see.
Another way is to use a vacuum gauge. Adjust timing so that you have the highest reading, then back off slightly.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

In addition to "wga's" advise...I have one of those inexpensive electronic tachometers that I think I got off of e-bay and placed a piece of the reflective tape that came with the unit right where that dot is on the pulley. It is real easy to see. Now I can set the timing and idle speed at the same time. That's all theory of course because I believe that in reality I do most of it by listening to how it sounds... except as I get older my hearing is declining, at least that is what my wife keeps telling me. Poor folks, poor ways.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

flaming river makes a nice little d cell battery powered timing light . Fairly cheap and works great on six or 12 volt cars.
No battery hookup required....

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flamin...Light,922.html

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

I was trying to figure out how to make my 12 volt timing light work on my car recently & then I thought of a simple solution - I just hook my 12 volt timing light up to a spare 12 volt battery beside the car & then it works fine on my 6 volt pos ground system :-)

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Just set the timing where it will run. Take it out warm it up. mash the gas at about 2000 rpm. keep advancing the timing until it pings a little ,then back it off till it stops pining. then your on the money .With the new gas and any mods to the engine there isn't any other way to get it right. Unless your lucky.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Good place to jump in i guess......I posted in regards to a good timing light and been reading the replys.
None of them are wrong but some are more right than others!
I work on Ts, Model As and Flatheads and there is no other group in the world so lost when it comes to actual engine timing. Seems as no one ever knows where TDC on the engine actually is !
Every engine needs a TDC exact timing mark placed on it sometime during the build.
Vacuum timing, spark knock timing and even starter kick back timing all work very well if you live in a cave somewhere !
(i am an old hillbily from Tennessee and have lived in a cave before and used all the above ) however that dont make it correct...:confused:
Find TDC and use a timing light !!!!!!!:eek::D

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Hey guys, thank you all very much for the help.
I do know how to use a light, just never have used one on any of my flatheads..
I'm putting on of Jims units in a car for a customer, and wanted to use a light on it for a change..
So the correct timing " with a light " would be the dot on the pointer ? At what rpm ?
That's where I put the distributor in at, and they always start right up, and don't think Ive ever moved them from there much..
This car has had some over heating problems, and Ive heard timing off can cause this,

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Bubba, I think you are a little harsh putting everyone in your category of this group being lost and living in caves. These folks asking questions and offering advice on how they time engines are what this forum is all about. We are not as lost as you think.
JMO
John

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Elwood, from what I learned recently you want the vehicle to be at a low idle of about 4-500rpm when checking for initial timing. The Dot on your lower pulley is set at 2 degrees BTDC. Good place to start. I asked about all the same questions about a month ago on here and these guys will teach you anything you want to learn, as long as your willing to listen. Luke

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Thanks Luke,
Im always willing to learn, and I have learned a LOT from here, lots of good people here ......

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

John,

No offence meant to any one person. Its The cars that make this a true statement. Starting with the Model Ts and no timing marks , then the As hit the street , at the very least they had a timing pin/bolt to set them up and then the flatheads with no timing mark until 1949.
Thats the way Ford wanted it for service and i cant argue with the thought that process worked for service.

My cave comment was meant toward myself more than anyone person as thats the way i learned to time engines with vac, throttle snap, feel and vac gauge , however after making a living for years teaching and working on cars , we no longer really need to do it that way when a timing light and TDC marks are very much prefered....

Again didnt mean to beat on any one person but hoping someone would read and think "how could we make this better"...?????

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Let me know how it runs. We often hear when converting from loadamatic vac distributors to one with mech advance, WOW my engine no longer over heats...amazing what the correct advance does for the engine...
l

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

With due respect to Jim and others, after one uses a timing light, don't you go back to post 6, and 'adjust to suit'? I know I do, no matter what the engine is. I almost always add a little more advance, but not much on flatheads. :)
I use a light to verify i'm not outta the ballpark.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

In my experience it depends on the engine. I work on collector cars only, I don't have a "modern" car daily car is a 1966 Cortina. Most stuff I work on I time it on a light, then out to my favourite back road hill for power timing. Almost always ill adjust the timing by seat of the pants, and get better results than with a light only.
Huge but here, stock flatheads, use the timing light to stock point and call it done, fringing with it on the road will not be fun. These things will fire "ok" with the timing off quite a bit. But not the best. Advance till you here a ping then back it off a tad, all the stock ones I've done that ping don't happen before power drops a good chunk, why would you keep advancing after that?
To much advance even a bit to much is just not good, it will cost power.
As you can tell I'm with bubba, get a tdc Mark sorted and use a light.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

I added a ring behind the crank pulley on my early engine and then added timing tape to it, after locating TDC. The timing is then very easy to adjust. But, how much is too much?
I set it at 24 degrees max, but think it could go more. Can't ever hear it ping.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Aren't we suppose to disengage the vacuum advance before timing with the light. I know that's what I was taught...slim

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

just read post 6 again and think about it,

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Ford procedure as called out in the Shop Manual "Disconnect the vacuum line between distributor and carburetor to eliminate the possibility of any vacuum advance. Start the engine and operate it at idle speed. Check timing with a timing light and make the necessary adjustments to align the pointer and the timing mark". Not promoting it or supporting it, just saying that's what was specified. If it were me, first off I would ditch the distributor, but that's another topic. I always use a timing light to check initial timing and would set it advanced from the Ford recommendation. Believe it is 2°, I would start a 4° advanced and play with it from there.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Is this a stock engine pre 8 BA ignition? If so your pretty much on the button, you could advance a couple more degrees but it won't gain you anything. Think about what happens mechanically with to much advance. We don't want the piston trying to push up against a charge that's already well on its way to maximum push, we want maximum push at exactly the right time, a bit early or a bit late is a waste of energy.
With high compression heads and or dual carbs will want less maximum advance,
if you haven't got it, get John Lawson's book, this will answer this and many other questions, backed up with dynomometer.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

The combustion cycle need more advance, when the engine is in cruise. That's why a modern ignition system has a vacuum advance. The load a matic works very well if it's in good operating condition. Same goes for the Vacuum brake on the old distributors. However the old engines ran on 60-70 Octane gas, with a lead additive in some cases. These ignition systems worked well, but as we know now, they weren't the most efficient.
Yes it works, but it can be made to work better.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

I always run a little extra advance. I know this might not be best for max power, but how often do we run our engines in this mode? Almost all driving is done at relatively low loads. Here the extra advance will increase fuel economy. As Ron has pointed out, changing to a modern distributor with mechanical and vacuum advance is a good improvement.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

I love the way we, me included, refer to an ignition with vacuum and centrifugal advance as modern, it makes me all happy inside, knowing that although we may not sing from the same hymn sheet, it is in the same book. And it's an old book.
With the chaps who like a tickle more advance in their ignition. I feel there is good reason for this.
The better gas we have now, higher octane, will stand a bit more advance early on. For max power the stock Ford figure still stands though.
So what's really needed is to get the advance in earlier. This would give you that "I like a bit of extra advance" seat of the pants feel. It would also have the extra advance in relatively low engine speed cruise. So this fits even with the cruise at 2000-2500 rpm gang. But keep the max timing stock.
A recurve of this nature can make the engine come alive, feels like a bunch more horses under the hood, even though the power is actually the same max, it just delivers it better. On a heavy car you have to be a bit more conservative with your all in rpm level.
This is why I like to fit the lightest springs from the recurve kits I can in a converted chevy ignition, I'd like them lighter, next one I will probably wind my own springs. Start changing other stuff and the ignition curve will want to be different again.
As I stated earlier, I set a stocker at stock timing and be done with it, this allows the car to be driven hard with no issues and operates as it should. If it's modified, it gets what it needs.
And if it's got one of those modern Mallory things hung off it, just getting it to run as good as a stock ignition is a ball ache. But they are recurveable, still wish they had lighter springs in the kit.
Sorry for waffle,
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Good read Martin,
In my opinion, your correct, and I do believe Jim uses lighter springs in his units..
I have his units in my 2 running 8ba,s and nether are stock, and they both are very zippy.
I always line the dot up with the pointer, and pop in the unit, and it gets just a slight advance from there..

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Hey elwood,
IMO, how can you go wrong by following Jims' input/instruction ? He may use different words than some to inform, but IMO he is right on ! And, how many thousands of units of all kinds (4/6/8s/antiques/classics) has he done for us and we love them all:). I've always done as he says he has done timing.
BTW...doesn't the 'condition' of the engine (worn out vs new) account for a little variance in the timing process also ? A timing light will help in either case AND will tell you how worn things are ...if old engine.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

You can't use a timing light to see how worn out an engine is. A massively high mileage engine will still most likely run best when timing is set to stock. Of course run best is a ambiguous statement.
Compression test or leak down test or a vacuum gauge are single devices that will tell you the engine condition, a timing light won't.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Modern engines have engine management systems that control the AF and ignition timing many times a second to give maximum performance and economy ALL the time. No reason why we can't do the same with a better carb and Ignition system on our engines. At least it's something to try anyway.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Martin
Mine is a Helmet distributor, converted to electronic trigger amd 12 volts
I know very little about ignition advance, but am aware that combustion chamber design dictates advance and how much a particular engine needs.
My engine has modified Canadian aluminum heads (modified only for valve lift and squish), is 290 CI, has a large cam (Potvin 425), and dual carbs.
The engine appears happiest using about 10-12 degrees initial and a max of about 24 degrees. I just wonder, short of another dyno test, if the engine could stand another few degrees, as I never can hear it ping. Just my ramblings
Jim

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Hey Jim: You can probably up your advance to 26 - 28 and see what happens. I've found that 26 seems to be a really good number for most of my performance engines (flatheads). We run this amount even on our blown race engines (of course we have race fuel, but we're also running a lot of dang boost). Given your engine specs, why not bump it 2 degrees and see if it still doesn't ping - chances are it will give you a bit better acceleration a bit earlier.

Dale

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Thanks Dale
I forgot to add that I'm working with a fellow on his distributor machine to set up the 12 initial/ 24/26 max on the helmet. Really, just trying to limit the amount

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Jim, you got 10-12 initial and 24 max already built, as Dale said by all meens try bumping you dizzy a couple of degrees see what happens. Even though you got your Canadian heads (slightly higher compression) it's quite an open chamber, plus with tight quench cooling the charge it can in theory stand a bit more advance before ping or knock sets in.
Your 10-12 initial and 24 max is about where I would start with your engine combination. Have you tried allowing the advance to come in earlier? Backing off the vacuum brake would allow this.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Forgot to add, if raising the max timing makes no change to the power up top, go back to what you have now. It's worth having a play backing the max timing off and see what that does, you may find more power, may. Just remember we're playing with the max timing only here. If advancing it gives you a bunch down the bottom, it shows that you want more initial or all in timing earlier.
Have fun.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

As far as the ping test which we used 40/50 years ago goes, the improved fuels we now have here make it almost impossible to get pinging in a low compression stock engine in our experience.The timing light is so much more accurate.Geoff

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

I think the orginal posters question was very well answered in regards to the timing light question.
The discussion has turned to timing and heres some reading from our
www.gasolinealleyshops.org site in regards to our dyno testing results.
You can wander around the site or read one dyno day here http://www.lindertech.com/gas/8-21-07.htm

We still run this truck , nowdays at the ECTA event in Willimington Ohio and hopefully this year we will get our big stroker ( 304 ci) motor in the truck and go after the new record ( 110 mph). Bonneiville has gotten too expensive to travel fuel, room board etc so we love the 150 mile ride to Willmington.

All in all we have approx 5 days on the dyno and have found that anything over 28 degrees drops of the hp quite a bit...

Enjoy........

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Bubba
Is 24 degrees a typo?
That dyno info says 28???
Thanks
Jim

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Yep i fixed it , thanks......:eek:

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Hey Martin,
Thanks for your input :) !
Well, considering your comments, I wonder , when I put the timing light on an old engine, say V8 flathead, why the timing light shows the timing jumping/floating around a few degrees back/forth :confused:
I've always thought/found that worn stuff, i.e.-time gears, cam gear, dist shaft gear/tang , timing related stuff were worn maybe even badly. Engine in such condition could/ would still run. Hm, have to rethink that,eh.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

what bubba said. sun used to have a saying,test dont guess.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Solid copped leads like those normally fitted to old stuff, if the timing light is a clip over the lead type (most modern ones) they pickup HT "noise" from other plug leads, this makes it look like the timing is flicking around. You'll find though if you watch it, it will flash more times on the correct point. Can take a bit of patients, try it.
Martin.

Re: Do you use a timing light ?
 

Bubba, when I assembled your helmet distributor,, was I suppose to retard/ advance distributor until I heard ping then back off. I'm a newbe at this. Thanks john