Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I'm working on getting my new to me '40 Deluxe Tudor running and need a little help. The car had a frame-off restoration back in the '80s, but I don't think it's been started in this century. I'm working through the normal steps to get a dormant car running, and now that I'm close to firing it, I see that there's no spark. There's power at the coil terminal but no spark at the end of the plug wires. I'm assuming that I have corrosion on the points and rotor, but I'm not exactly sure the right way to access them! This is my first flathead with the diver's helmet distributor, and before I screw something up I thought it would be best to ask a couple questions.

1. Am I correct in thinking that it's necessary to pull the distributor to dress the points and rotor?

2. Is removing the distributor a matter of removing the plug and coil wires and then simply unbolting it from the front of the block?

Thanks,
Bobby

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

1. yes
2. Pop off the side caps and wires can stay connected...no need to disturb them unless you suspect trouble. Remove three bolts and vac line and it should come off. Look it over and note that the drive tab is offset, so it can go back on properly timed. Also examine front of cam...your engine uses what is called the LONG cam, something like 3/8" longer nose at distributor cam than '42-48 SHORT cam. You may very well have a short one, since those are far easier to find, with an adapter that lengthens cam...so wiggle the front of cam with pliers and see if a little adaptor comes off. Reason you need to know this is that adaptor could fall off, anf then you'd have a REALLY mysterious failure to fire!
Set points to large end of gap range. I've posted a method of timing the thing using only a ruler, stolen from an old Ford patent. Timing at stock 4 degrees will be right about center of scale.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Remove coil, vacuum line, unhook bails holding spark plug wires to distributor and unbolt distributor. Top right bolt may have to come off to remove coil if you have the original type condenser. If points are clean, you may need a condenser (IH 200 at NAPA) .

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Couple more things...note the spring that serves as coil primary contact to distributor points. The coil needs to be in place when you adjust and time as it pushes hard enough to shift the point plate a bit.
Commonest failures of points not is use are broken springs (probably at a rust spot?) and formation of tarnish on the contact points themselves.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. It looked like pulling it was straight-forward, but I figured there was probably a bit more to it. I've created a lot more work for myself over the years by just tearing into something before I understood how it worked.

One more question before I tear into it. Should there be 6 volts on the coil terminal or should it be dropped down to 3 volts by the ballast resistor? I'm reading 6.3 with the ignition switch on.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

When I remove the distributor from my 40 in addition to all mentioned above, I take the 2 bolts out of each wire loom to make things easier. It allows you to move the caps/inner caps farther away. Those bolts are very easy to get at. You don't need to take the looms off the car just be able to move them a couple of inches out.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I've had mine out quite a few times.I try to be careful not to disturb the position of the rotor drive tang.Once it's out,I use a Marks-A-Lot and draw a line across the drive and bottom of the distributor.It's not really necessary but makes the install a "little" easier.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Bobby, The voltage at the coil will be full battery voltage until the points are closed, at which point the circuit is complete. The ballast resistor then drops about 2 volts. The engine will run on anything down to 3 volts, but points and coil will be short lived on full voltage.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Thanks Alan.

Update - Pulled the distributor and cleaned everything. The point contacts were snow white and the brass contacts for the rotor and caps were pitch black. It's back together and I have good spark now. I've tried to start it a few times, but only get a backfire through the carburetor. When I reassembled the distributor, I set the advance on the middle mark, which is where it was before disassembly. I can hear a good suction at the throttle plates when they are closed, so I think I have good compression. I'm going to look things over while the battery charges to see if I'm missing anything. We'll see what happens!

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Embarrassing update - I learned something today. Apparently, these old Fords won't run when you have six of the eight plug wires in the wrong place. Once I put them in the right place it fired right up and purrs like a kitten.

Now all I need to do is change out the gas tank, flush the lines, swap carburetors, and it will be ready for its first drive in a long long time.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Bobby, you're going to swap carburetors, OK, but a note on the carb you have now: Backfiring through the carburetor has likely blown the diaphragm on the Economiser valve.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I think ford38 v8 ment power valve

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

The Economizer valve IS the Power valve.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Correct

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I started a post similar to this one last week and the help was awesome. This post causes me some confusion though. Bruce's post above says to adjust the points to the wide end of the range and set the timing to 4* which will be about the middle of the scale. Per the advice I got, I set points to .015 and timing screw up by two notches. I'm starting to get the feeling that there's no right answer and no wrong answer :)

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I have no idea what my points are set at. I start by setting them by eye, then I set each set on my Sun machine to get the proper dwell for the "make" and "break" side and the proper total. Next let it run for a few hours and recheck. Setting with a feeler gauge just gets you close to what it actually needs to be and without a machine, that is difficult to determine, it will run however.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

"I started a post similar to this one last week and the help was awesome. This post causes me some confusion though. Bruce's post above says to adjust the points to the wide end of the range and set the timing to 4* which will be about the middle of the scale. Per the advice I got, I set points to .015 and timing screw up by two notches. I'm starting to get the feeling that there's no right answer and no wrong answer."

You've been given the right answer, but you're just easily confused.

One of the problems with car forums is that 20 guys can give you advice ... 19 are wrong, only one is right.

You'll take the advice of the 19, popular vote.

Once more ... :

The marks on the advance index plate are 4 crankshaft degrees apart. The middle one by design is 0 degrees. If you move the index 1 notch, that is 4 crankshaft degrees.

If "Duece" has a Sun machine and sets his distributor's LH points at 22 1/2 degrees of dwell, there's nothing to help him set the initial advance. He must go to an additional device, such as a KRW fixture to set it. If he does, the distributor's index normally will be at 1 notch advanced from the center.

Because of some variations in the condition of some points, the alignment of the index can vary. But, that's usually where it ends up.

For someone to give you the right answer, they should have spent considerable time with a strobe machine AND a KRW fixture AND a set of feeler gauges.

A forum is going to flood you with information. Some of it is well-meaning but simply wrong. Some is wild-assed guessing and repeating something someone else said.

Having posted this, I will absolutely guarantee that very soon the same questions will come up ... and the same wrong answers will be given again.

That's just the way it is.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Hoop,
I took the advice of someone that came across very early as someone that I felt knew what they were talking about. Does this sound familiar? :)

"Easy. Clean the points and make sure they are each making contact using a meter and while blocking the other set with a thin piece of card stock ... a piece of business card.

Set each set carefully to .015 with a good fit.

Adjust the initial advance index to one notch below the middle on the scale. Run it.

For the time being we will hope that the weighs are not stuck and that when the distributor was installed it was a working unit. Points will develop a "glaze" from sitting and that needs to be cleaned off.

It is easier ... but not necessary ... to pull this insides out of the case to work on the points. Remove the coil, the screw and index plate, remove the vacuum plunger, slide the insides out after spraying it with your favorite penetrant. Expect to have to clamp the bottom drive tang sideways in a vise and carefully tap the outer housing. The coil must be mounted on the distributor when you adjust the points. It isn't precision, but it will help define your problem."

As I mentioned in the other thread, my father owned this car back when he was a kid. He didn't have a Sun machine and didn't have a distributor jig (otherwise I would have got it). In the 60+ years he owned the car, he did his own work (except body work). At one point, he loaded up mom and us kids in that car, hooked up a travel trailer and headed to Nebraska from LA. This leads me to believe that someone without all the "bells and whistles" tools can properly set these engines up. Also, I have Professional Engineering licensure in two states...my statement of "confusion" above was more of an attempt to shed some light on these differences of opinions in setting up these things.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

" Also, I have Professional Engineering licensure in two states...my statement of "confusion" above was more of an attempt to shed some light on these differences of opinions in setting up these things."

As I said before, I'm trying to help you.

I have posted a lot of information and advice NOT necessarily for YOU, but for others who may be seeking insights into flathead distributors. Many of us read intently what is posted by others looking for refinements in what we do.

You are suffering from "paralysis by analysis" ... it frequently attacks engineers.;)

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Final timing is a matter of the individual engine's preferences...but stock spec is good starting point and works well. It can be found by simple jigs like the KRW fixtur or the aftermarket flat plate ones, OR by the method with ruler derived from Ford patent... which nicely matches actual result on KRW fixture.
I like widest end of gap as starting point as there will be a small amount of closing when rubbing block settles in.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I guess we should all quit responding to posts and just let you give all the "correct" answers.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

"I guess we should all quit responding to posts and just let you give all the "correct" answers."

You are right. It really is more important that everyone should get to participate.

It was thoughtless and unkind for me to suggest anything otherwise.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Fooey. Ask Ford how to set something, and you get one lousy answer from a corporation worth billions.
Ask online, and dozens of people freely share dozens of answers! That's the power of the internet! ;0

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

"everyone should get to participate."

That is SO very generous, I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

I am joining this discussion late but my 2 cents .,I have set many distributors over the years and very few came to me with the distributor set correctly even though very few miles had be done on them since servicing ,it shows that ninety per cent run after a fashion but not as they should .There is a right answer ,if your setting your points at 15 then its not timed ,in the book 15 was the starting point then adjustments are made after that, more like 16 and 11 with the wider one on the drivers side .With the points we get now its even harder .With the advance [plate one notch up you will be close but unlikely spot one .Ted

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Ted. The more posts I read the more and more it's becoming clear. Hoop did say that 15 was the starting point in my thread and that it could be used in order to eliminate the distributor as a problem area if there were other problems with the engine. I also understand setting the two points at different gaps. Together they control the dwell.
Hoop might be right about the "paralysis by analysis"...sorry, I can't help it. I love to know how and why things work and struggle with the..."it works just because it does" mentality (not saying that I find that here). I'm not paralyzed...I have set my distributor per Hoops directions and will install it tomorrow. I have no doubt that it will run better based on the condition I found when I first took it apart. I realize that it would be a miracle if it's set exactly right with timing and dwell. I guess the only way I can do any better than what I've done is to send it in to have someone else set it up or buy a $500 tool and do it myself. My initial reason for pulling the distributor was because the engine was running on the hot side, was reluctant to start after heated up due to "timing bind" and the timing plate was at the bottom of the slot. If I can cure these 3 things then I'm fine. If the dwell and/or timing is off a couple degrees but it runs cooler and starts great after warmed up...mission accomplished!

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

For the folks that have been around here for a while AND that have half a clue, they know well that WHEN Hoop speaks, pay attention! Same goes for Bruce L. DD

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Capt Kirk ,there's nothing wrong with experimentation ,timing plate down= retarded timing ,= a hot motor ,I am sure if you have done it Hoops way you'll be fine .Ted

Re: Pulling Diver's Helmet
 

Well, I'll try to help out Countrysquire a little. He clam's the plug wires came out of the inner cap when he was taking the dist out and had a hard time getting them in the right place. If you remove the coil first and take a long screw driver you usually tap the inner cap and it will come out of the dist with out the wires coming of the inner cap. Walt