Car title value.
 

Just noticed a listing for a car for sale that will sell for 1/2 the price if purchased without the title. Always thought the title went with the car? I may be naïve, but how can a title, alone, have any value to this seller without the car? This is a pre-war vehicle. I bet some of us have old titles sitting around and maybe we can cash in on them.

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Maybe the car doesn't have a title and the seller doesn't want to go through the trouble to provide one without substantial reimbursement.

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'Cause he knows where you live and is planning on reclaiming the car after you restore it. No joke.

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Just maybe, the guy selling the car possibly obtained it in a "questionable" manner. So he advertises it for sale, hoping that someone like you that doesn't realize all of the connivery that can possibly surround creative car titling, might be interested in purchasing the vehicle for a reduced price, because he "misplaced" the title (wink, wink).........oh yeah, cash ONLY, please. DD

Re: Car title value.
 

You've been offered some great advice. I'd take it to heart.
Legally, the guy that owns the title, also owns the car. And, it does not matter how many times the car may have been sold.
A title DOES go with the car. Titles are not "owned" by anyone but the state that issued them.

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Odds are the title is not from that car. I remember my grandfather would buy old titles. And restamp frames. No one cared anything about it then. As long as they got their money for your tags. Some things are questionable now days. But some people are just looking to make another buck. I was talking to a guy about a model a pickup last week. He kept telling me the engine was rebuilt. Then he tells me that he got the motor unstuck and hoaned the cylinders and got it running. He thought the work he did added two thousand to it. When it comes down to it. There are just some a holes out there.

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no way an honest guy will take half price for a car. Just my 2 cents.

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I still have my title to a truck that was stolen twenty years ago. I keep this title just in case some day the truck is found and returned.

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No titles ever issued for cars prior to 1972 in New York State, just a registration.

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A person that even offers a vehicle in this manner should be considered shady. After all, just what does he plan to do with a legal document to a motor vehicle he no longer owns? Is he planning on building another one and use the same title? It he going to sell the document to some other unsuspecting builder that needs a legal document?

I would even question whether that document even matches the vehicle for sale. More than a few folks like this have ended up in court over "fiddling" with legal documents. Boyd Coddington got into serious troubles when getting involved with "cloning" of Cobra sports cars.

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I'm not sure the seller here was looking to keep title and sell the car without it. If the seller has no title and has to get one, it's gonna cost him time and money. If you take the car "as-is" (maybe as a parts car), then the price is less. Simple.

As far as selling titles, that's shady in my book.

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.........and is the main-most reason the "Boss" allows no part of that activity here on the 'Barn. DD

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Here is a scenario I can imagine. Lets say you have 2 early cars that are the same make, model, etc. One is way better then the other but has no title, one is a "parts car" with a title. You sell or scrap the bad one and keep the title and re stamp the frame of the better vehicle grind the numbers off the "parts car frame". Not necessarily shady. I admit I have a set of Ford frame stamps.

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Selling titles is beyond "shady", it is actually illegal. To reiterate an earlier post of mine: You can't OWN a title. It is issued by the State and remains property of the State. You, as a "consumer" are allowed to "use" the title as a means to identify ownership of the vehicle.
Most states, perhaps all, require titles of vehicles that are scrapped be returned to the State.

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It sounds like the guy wants to do something that is not legal. I think I would just back away from him.

Charlie Stephens

Re: Car title value.
 

Great advice. I would not buy a sack of rocks from this guy.

Re: Car title value.
 

I think the thing to ask in this situation would be "why" to the seller, as many have brought up, it could just be that the seller does not have a title and knows what effort it will take to get one, or as mentioned he has a title in hand and is just selling as a parts car and plans to use the title elsewhere..which is not good...but basing assumptions without asking the seller a few questions, is not the way to go about it.

Personally if I came across that ad (even without interest in the car), I'd ask the seller "why?".

Re: Car title value.
 

================================================== ======







I would't buy a sack of rocks from any guy. :eek::eek:

Well, maybe if the rocks are at least 1 carat, and priced right. :D









.

Re: Car title value.
 

The problem comes with repro bodies. If you buy a repro body, it is easy to register with a title. So you keep the old title, and use it on your new or old frame and sell the body as parts. Nothing illegal there.

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I'd add, be certain the seller has title in his name and has paid the taxes on it. You can get a nasty surprise when you retitle.

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So, what does this situation add up to.... I bought a 32 frame from a friend of mine. (I'm in CA) I also got a body, 32 rdstr. Registration is usually pretty straight forward in CA, so I went to register it. Even though the frame is stamped ONLY with the ID number (NO 18-), I tried to register it as 18-xxxxx. DMV said that number is already registered to another person in CA, as a Coupe.
At the time I had a friend who was the head-weenie manager of a local DMV office. And, this was about the same time that Boyd Coddington's story was in the news. So, the DMV folks were on the alert at that time, for folks that were messing around with non-original stamps, kit cars, street rods, anything that had to do with 32-34 Fords that looked like not-the-real-deal. My DMV manager-friend looked up the number, and gave me a printout of the history of that 32, going back many years, and even through a change of license plate numbers.
Bottom line is that I waited a couple years, and re-applied. But, this time I didn't try to use the 18-, but only the number visible on the frame, without the 18-. So, now California has TWO 32 Fords with the same ID number, one with the 18-, and one without the 18-. My DMV friend said he was going to look into the other 32, and perhaps have the car brought in for inspection. I don't know if that ever happened.
It leaves me wondering, could the other 32 owner claim my car? Could I claim his car, since I have the frame that apparently was once his?

Regarding the original subject, and some of the comments.... I have no idea why a person can't own titles. I have a small collection (very small) that I have displayed on the wall in my garage - My dad's 37 Plymouth, My first car, a 35 Pontiac, a neighbors car, 41 Olds, and a couple of 30's Fords that I've come across, one being my aunts 35 coupe, and one of them being a 35 coupe which was my second car. I have no idea why this is wrong or illegal - I don't think it is. To single out Kube, his comments elude me. And, I can't understand Ryan's position for not allowing their sale or trade. Since I have a 33/34 Ford, I would love to find an ORIGINAL 34 Ford title to hang on the wall. (And, no, I don't need it for registration, my car is already registered.)

Re: Car title value.
 

Here in Alabama titles arent required prior to 1975. I sold a 33 Pickup to a gentleman in North Carolina which requires a title so I went down to the courthouse and they looked at the current tag and registration then typed a letter saying the pickup did in fact belong to me free and clear then notorized the letter.He then produced the letter to his state and was able to apply and get a title. I tried once to get a Alabama title for my 40 but all they would tell me is that I do not need one prior to 1975.

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Some states like NY to not issue titles to old cars, just transferable registrations. (think green slip for you old guys). With the rat rod craze and everybody building unsafe crap without a clue, care or paperwork there are many people making a TON of money SELLING titles. That is a felony in NYS my friend, if you sell it for the purpose of using to register a car other then the original car it was issued to. You CAN sell and buy them for collector purposes. I do believe it to be true that the issuing state still owns the title and can recall it at will for cause (Here in NY if car is illegally modified, stolen, etc.). The good thing about NY is if you have no title and are trying to license an old car (pre 1973) its not extremely hard. Need an etching of vin or serial number, bill of sale. They then give you a non transferable reg or a couple of weeks while they check to see if its stolen. After a few weeks, they mail you a transferable reg (title here in NY) if car does not come back as stolen. Of course this cost extra (about $50 I believe ) but no special inspection or additional paperwork needed. Know of several people who have registered pre war cars with just a crayon etching of vin and bill of sale. After a few weeks you get a legal ownership document and New York gets some extra cash !! everybody wins.
Thats my two cents.

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Good point. However, in this case, the guy wants to sell the body and frame and keep the title. That is what seems "unconventional" to me.

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Why do you have to pay taxes on a title?

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Ralph, he means sales tax on the price you paid for the car. Not all states do that, they sure do here in Wisconsin. If it has changed hands a few times the state would like to have the tax on each sale. They like having money sent in to them.

Re: Car title value.
 

Regarding the original subject, and some of the comments.... I have no idea why a person can't own titles. I have a small collection (very small) that I have displayed on the wall in my garage - My dad's 37 Plymouth, My first car, a 35 Pontiac, a neighbors car, 41 Olds, and a couple of 30's Fords that I've come across, one being my aunts 35 coupe, and one of them being a 35 coupe which was my second car. I have no idea why this is wrong or illegal - I don't think it is. To single out Kube, his comments elude me. And, I can't understand Ryan's position for not allowing their sale or trade. Since I have a 33/34 Ford, I would love to find an ORIGINAL 34 Ford title to hang on the wall. (And, no, I don't need it for registration, my car is already registered.)[/QUOTE]

This is one (ownership of titles) of many laws that is not typically enforced.
However, should the enforcement be required for whatever reason, the law is there.
As far as Ryan not allowing their sale... smart man. Ryan has apparently chosen to stay out of any possible repercussions that may have come from sales facilitated on his website.
Most likely the same reason eBay does not allow the sales.
As one can't technically OWN a title, a title can't be sold. Pretty simple really. You can't sell what isn't yours.

Re: Car title value.
 

Poeple have in their possession a number of documents that technically are not their property. For instance, a drivers license must be surrendered to the authorities on demand. To display a collection of titles is one thing, but to attempt to present those titles to represent ownership of the vehicles they were issued to would definitely get you in hot water.

Re: Car title value.
 

This is one (ownership of titles) of many laws that is not typically enforced.
However, should the enforcement be required for whatever reason, the law is there.
As far as Ryan not allowing their sale... smart man. Ryan has apparently chosen to stay out of any possible repercussions that may have come from sales facilitated on his website.
Most likely the same reason eBay does not allow the sales.
As one can't technically OWN a title, a title can't be sold. Pretty simple really. You can't sell what isn't yours.[/QUOTE]



Kube, Are you going to the Jefferson swap meet? If you are there, you will find a vendor selling titles. He also was talking to the local sheriff last time I passed. He makes sure you are selling titles for collection purposes and if you buy one, he will also sell you a collectible unstamped VIN plate. All while the law is watching. He knows what is legal and what isn't and lets the law know also. What you do with it is not his problem.

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In Kansas all that is required is to send in the frame numbers, they research the number and if all is well send you a title. I have done several and it is very simple.

Re: Car title value.
 

[QUOTE=Juergen;1055066] QUOTE]

Kube.......... he will also sell you a collectible unstamped VIN plate. QUOTE]

Juergen .......When was the last time you saw a "VIN plate" mounted on one of these old Fords? DD

Re: Car title value.
 

As a general rule most states require that when a vehicle is turned in for scrape/junk, the title is supposed to be turned into the state. Does everyone do this? I don't think so! An honest wrecking yard will not accept vehicles that do not have clear ownership documents. Some "Yards" that sell older vehicles will place these vehicles in an "impound yard", retaining the paperwork in lieu of turning it into the state.
Throughout the years I have purchased several old/vintage vehicles from wrecking yards around the country, getting very old titles/registration and plates with the vehicle.
Private parties that part out vehicles is usually a completely different game, and therein can lay a big problem when a vehicle is purchased from a private party.
Several years ago we purchased a '39 Plymouth conv coupe from a man in Alabama. The car came with a notarized Bill of Sale.. No title, registration or license plates. As it has already been stated in a previous comment to this topic, Alabama did not issue titles on vehicles prior to 1975.
California and most of the western states have issued vehicle titles since sometime in the 1930's, or earlier.
We could not get a clear title/registration for the '39 Plymouth in California for several reasons: The serial number listed on the Bill of Sale did not match the tag riveted to the body, the same was true of the engine number.
Contacting Alabama DMV solved nothing, they would only supply a letter stating that they did not issue titles etc, on vehicles built prior to '75. Trying to contact the seller of the vehicle was fruitless, he had the money, referred us to the notary. The notary only varified the identity of the person that signed the bill of sale.
It took us over two years to get clear ownership of the '39 Plymouth, and that was via an "assigned VIN" by the state of California. The assigned number does not identify the Plym as being a '39 Plym. conv. cpe. In other words it lost it's identity, and possibly a significant amount of it's value..

Re: Car title value.
 

Kube, Are you going to the Jefferson swap meet? If you are there, you will find a vendor selling titles. He also was talking to the local sheriff last time I passed. He makes sure you are selling titles for collection purposes and if you buy one, he will also sell you a collectible unstamped VIN plate. All while the law is watching. He knows what is legal and what isn't and lets the law know also. What you do with it is not his problem.[/QUOTE]

This is totally false. While I have little doubt in you witnessing the guy speaking with a sheriff, the information he was given and / or he chooses to pass along is patently false.
Think about this: If one sells something that is not his (recall, you can't OWN a title) then that person selling is breaking the law.
He can call it a historical document, a collectors item, or heck, "toilet paper" for all I and the law would care. The fact remains, it is a title, owned by the state. Therefore, illegal to sell. Period.
One more thing, to knowingly purchase something that one knows is not a possession of the "seller" is also illegal. Any half way decent prosecuting attorney could also (easily) argue the purpose of purchasing said title was to further facilitate a criminal activity. In this example, most likely, the renumbering and subsequent titling of a vehicle.
While I realize that in our "modern" society, ignorance goes a long way to skirt laws, if it all came down to a court proceeding, one MUST realize that ignorance is no excuse when a law is broken. That too is actually a law.

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Back in the fifties when we went to the local junk yard to get our parts there was a stack of registrations almost a foot high on a metal spike that they used in diners for completed orders. I wonder what ever happened to that stack. The junk yard is long gone and houses are now stand where the junk yard once was . Just thinking ????

Re: Car title value.
 

Just my 2¢....

Contact the DMV in your state and ask about the procedure for getting a title for a vehicle purchased that does not come with a title. That should give you an indication of the value of a title.

When I bought my 41 in 2009 it came with a title. In my excitement I didn't check the numbers. When I went to the local DMV I was told the truck had to be inspected before the state would issue a title. That is when I found out the numbers did not match. It made no difference to the state that the truck had been titled in Texas, Tennessee, and Kentucky with the numbers on the title the seller provided when I picked up the truck.. I was required to get an appraisal and post a bond for three years for the appraised value in order to get a North Carolina title. The procedure took 6 months and several hundred dollars. If someone made a claim they owned the truck they got the value of the bond, not the truck. At least in NC that's the way it works. SO if there is no title, or the numbers don't match this may be what the buyer is in for.

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I support Kubes position on state ownership of titles; when exporting a car the Title must be placed in the glovebox, no title = no export. An official takes the Title (and presumably returns it to the issuing state.) To my mind this is proof that the State owns the Title, if the State didn't own the Title they would not be able to take it, and us importers would be able to have a little collection on our workshop walls.

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The DMV can be painful to deal with. I had a WWII German vehicle that I wanted to register. The DMV queen told me I needed to get the original owners record of ownership to register it. All I had was a Bill of Sale, no Title. I said, "ya well I'm sure the original owner is dead now as he probably didn't keep the records in his rucksack while attacking Stalingrad". Followed up the following week and registered it no problem with another clerk.
The story of the '32 in Cali with the same VIN is scary. What are the references to Coddington referred to?

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getting back to the original question...In this case, the seller will take $3,000 for the body, frame, seats and some misc parts along with a clear title to the car. He will also take $2,000 for all the above without the title. The seller has placed a value of $1,000 for the clear title. That is where the question comes from. Perhaps a clear title is worth $1,000 to the buyer but how can it be worth $1,000 to the seller if he no longer owns the car?

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Do you know for a fact that the numbers on the frame match what is on the title? Does the body type match what is on the title? If the title vin number and body type match the title then the title should go with the frame.If they all match and he will sell it without the title I find that quite strange.If you buy it without the title,what are you going to do for a title?