update on V-12
 

Well I guess you all know the story. Seller is a 12 hour drive away and says he had a head off and machinist says it is a good block. Well pics show the story. Pistons are .040. Question is can the bad hole be sleeved and thereby save the block????

Re: update on V-12
 

Ran good when parked, right? DD

Re: update on V-12
 

Looks like a great boat anchor....

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Think the guy selling it found it on the end of an anchor chain... WOW.

Re: update on V-12
 

This is terrible! I understand caveat emptor but it sounds like the guy outright lied to you. I'd be very angry and wanting a total refund plus extra for my wasted time and effort ...

Re: update on V-12
 

I would hazard a guess that bore is fixable, I really think you should have a real good look over this engine. That bad hole may just be the first find. Sgonna be the devils own job getting that puppy in bits.
I think I may have "accidentally" dropped it in the sellers parts of shame.
He flat out lied!
Martin.

Re: update on V-12
 

He did say to bring it back on my next trip through his area and he would refund. I would rather put some more $$$ into this if it can be sleeved. I did clean the top on one side and the deck does look good.

Re: update on V-12
 

Well that's good then if he's willing to offer a refund, though I'd be leery that he'd have moved between now and then :)!

Re: update on V-12
 

Even if you sleeve it you should get a partial refund for that.

Re: update on V-12
 

We've all had it happen somewhere down the line. A deal like that made me a "See it before you buy it" guy. Don't know what you paid for it but there are bound to be much better ones out there. It might be fixed but "might be" can run into a bunch of money for nothing. Hate to see that.

Re: update on V-12
 

That one bore may be the least of your problems. With all that water down the hatch, the crank, rods, cam, lifters and oil pump may be kaput. Getting thise valves and guides out will be a break and destroy operation, no way they can be used.

Re: update on V-12
 

Bill so long as the cylinder is not broken @ the bottom where the new sleeve will need to register you will be okay to sleeve it . I would certainly magblock after you get it striped to be sure the hole in the cylinder is the extent of the bad damage . Be sure to get a "chrome moly" sleeve for that cylinder .
Cheers
Tony

Re: update on V-12
 

Talked to the machine shop and they want me to pull the piston to see how far down the bore it goes. Hope to do that in the next day or so. If they feel it can be fixed reasonably then I will strip it down and carry on with a slow rebuild.

Re: update on V-12
 

sorry to see that , This is the reason I can't afford to pay the prices some folks ask on e-bay, I realize sometimes sellers Just arent aware the characteristics of the failures that happen to these old engines and some buyers are not as experienced as well .I agreed to buy a used engine but first told the seller, I would pay his asking price if it passed inspection before I paid the balance ,the deal was if it passed I would pay for the mag. etc. If it failed he was to return my deposit and pay for th inspection ,
otherwise I would pay what I normally do and incur the risks, He agreed, the mains were cracked one cyl. split . The seller reluctantly refunded my money an threw in another block, the block he gave me was buildable even though it had the wrong main caps. I cant complain the engine was about 200 miles away.
some peoples definition of repairable is no matter what it costs, but that it is possible to repair it.
I have the phone number of a man that has a block he said he might sell , it is a bare block, I will see if he is seriouse about possibly parting with it if you may be interested.
fordestes

Re: update on V-12
 

I've built a few of those V12s. Believe me,it's like the monkey pissing into the cash register . It runs into the money!!!

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As a last resort it would be a cool static display for your shop or car shows. You don't see these everyday.

Lonnie

Re: update on V-12
 

I spent some hours on the block today. Pan and oil pump out. Pan looks good, oil pump was not stuck and rotates freely. Was able to get the crank out without to much difficulty once I took the clutch and flywheel off and it looks good. One piston came out rather easily and the rest are stuck big time. I drilled holes in the piston in the damaged hole and was able to break it up and remove without damaging the rod. I believe it can be sleeved in the bad hole. Now a couple of questions. How much overbore will these take? Currently at .040 and would like to be able to go .080 to be sure all cyls are good. What, if any, parts from the V-8 will fit the V-12. Will the valves, springs, guides and lifters fit? Found that the outside of all the rod bearings had a shim. Is that normal?? Thanks Bill

Re: update on V-12
 

It should go .080. Valves and guides will interchange with the V8. You can also use the V8 springs and lifters . V12s had hydraulic lifters starting in 38, so to use the Ford lifters the cam will require to be ground for them which I would do on any V12 rebuild. Bearings should not have shims.

Re: update on V-12
 

I have not pulled a valve yet but they appear to be regular lifters with mushroom valves. Will pull one tomorrow.

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Are these V12 blocks made of better material than V8 blocks? I thought I read they had more nickle or something like that in the cast iron.

Re: update on V-12
 

Post a picture of the inside of the lifter galley. That block could be a 37 and they did not have hydraulic lifters.

Re: update on V-12
 

If they have higher nickle content than domestic V-8 blocks I'd be surprised based on my experience porting a couple of V-12s several years ago. French blocks and some Canadian blocks I've ported and modified, with higher nickle content, are noticeably harder that the majority of domestic V-8 blocks, as evidenced by the feel and metal-removal speed of carbide burrs; the burr won't give you any numbers but it doesn't lie! Carving a French or other high-nickle block takes me about 20-25 percent longer than the same work on a domestic V-8 block.

Admittedly two blocks are not a significant sampling of Lincoln V-12s. They were both mid-'40s castings and essentially identical in casting quality. When I was asked if I wanted to do the work the first time I was excited to work on what I assumed would be a superior piece compared to the V-8. Sad to say that wasn't the case; overall casting quality was comparable but the siamesed inlet tracts (1 & 2, 5 & 6, 7 & 8, 11 & 12) looked like an afterthought. They were rough and inconsistently sized and generally not well shaped. And there was no evidence of corrective handwork -- not unreasonable for a car costing 60-100 percent more than the companies baseline cars . My budget didn't allow nearly enough time to do what was required to do what I would have liked to have done. I'd cut someone a smokin' deal to port a V-12 the way it should be, time be damned! FWIW, the single-inlet center ports were all rather decent.

Mike

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL64/.../410929045.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL64/.../410929046.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL64/.../410929048.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL64/.../410929047.jpg

Re: update on V-12
 

lifter valley

Re: update on V-12
 

check the pan rail for cracks
tk

Re: update on V-12
 

Guess I should have said picture of the rear portion of the lifter galley. It got cut off in the previous picture.

Re: update on V-12
 

And still mikebishop lurks around here. That's good to know. He's the go-to guy for those who plan on porting.

Lonnie

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Mike B
I've never had the opportunity to work on one of these, and the only ones I've ever seen running were virgin stock. Have you ever seen any power out put numbers form any of these engines. I bet they'll rev quit high.

Re: update on V-12
 

This would be a good time to thank Mike for his document on porting and relieving. A must for all to read if you want better air flow in your flatty. http://www.flatheadv8.org/bishop/porting1.htm

Re: update on V-12
 

Your picture of the valve valley shows solid lifters, but that doesn't mean that some one hasn't replaced the hydraulic lifters with solid. If the hydraulic lifters were replaced with solid lifters, check the cam for excess wear on the lobes. There is a different grind for hydraulic lifters than solid lifters. I would think that .080 would be marginal for a rebore. Have the cylinders sonic tested first to see how much meat is left.

Re: update on V-12
 

pics of galley. I measured the piece broken out of the cyl and the thinnest part measures .130 so If I go .080 I would have .110 wall thickness left if all are the same as the pistons are now .040. How thin a wall can we go. Sonic testing is not a problem.

Re: update on V-12
 

On the v8 I like to see .100 or more at the thinnest part, But this would be a worst case condition

Re: update on V-12
 

That block is a 37. It uses the same valves,springs and lifters as the Ford V8. The fuel pump pushrod bushing is also the same. This block doesn't have the oiling provisions for the hydraulic lifters which started in 38. The 36 blocks had bolt on engine mounts and were casted with the block in 37.

Re: update on V-12
 

Looks like this is a 36 as it has the bolt on mounts. Anyway found another bad cyl. and have decided to scrap the block. What should I salvage from this?? Is there enough demand for conn rods and cam to make it worthwhile to finish stripping it?? Thanks guys for all the comments. Scrap or not it is still a good learning experience.

Re: update on V-12
 

Yes, I'd save everything.

Re: update on V-12
 

Is there a problem with sleeving it?

Re: update on V-12
 

might be touch and go with a second sleeve. I guess I will haul it to the machine shop after I clean it up some more.

Re: update on V-12
 

Those are some healthy cracks, that's for sure.

Re: update on V-12
 

Have you, or anyone, speculated on what caused the broken cylinders? I thought the heads were on when you got it. I'm sure wondering how those cylinders got the way they are, especially if the heads were on, and it was once presumably a running engine. I wouldn't scrap the block quite yet. I'm betting it's fixable by someone. Put it on the back burner - someone will raise their hand. If that was a really old, and really rare block, I think there is no doubt that it would be fixed.
just my opinion... :)

Re: update on V-12
 

GOOD news. Took the block to machine shop today and they say yes it can be sleeved. Now it will sit here at home until I get time to do some further cleaning and checks then will hot tank, magnaflux and do a sonic test to see if the bore will go to .080. .060 will probably leave some pitting. Bill

Re: update on V-12
 

If you are sleeving it the pitting should not be an issue. Are you thinking about just sleeving a few cylinders?