Timing = heating?
 

Okay, so I have been plagued with a heating problem with my blown 276 since I installed it in my 40. I have seen many posts relating retarded timing as one of the possibilities for the problem.

While I have the heads off and cleaning the block (a story for another post) I have been trying to learn about how the distributor really works. I read and read but it was time to get hands on and apply words to real life.

I am using a mallory non vacuum unit and the instructions that came with it said it was factory set for 24 degrees maximum advance. I find (by using mallory gauges) that the max. setting is actually 16 degrees. Joe Abbin has recommended 24 degrees at 3000 rpm. Seems to me that this IS a retarded state and could be a lot of my problem.

Appreciate any thoughts from you more knowledgable gents.

Thanks,

Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

While you've got the heads off mark the front pulley for top dead center and then check timing with a timing light.
If the initial timing was set at 8 degrees plus 16 in the dist. would give you 24 total. Bill

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Just getting ready to say, you need to add in initial timing. Even 4 deg, which is often suggested, would give you 20 (which is also often suggested). I agree with bbrocksr need to establish TDC and mark the crank pulley. Might even want to add some timing marks, or you could use a dial-back timing light. Everything I have heard says the timing curves in the Mallory distributers is similar to a SBC curve and not a good curve for a flathead. May need to be re-curved.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Next test...find out how quickly the timing advances. If it is slow, not coming in til high RPM, you are running retarded most of the time.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Fourdy,
The timing number Joe refers (24 degrees) is maximum or total advance. As above static (initial) timing say 8 + 16 in the dizzy = 24. Important BUT with a supercharger you need to retard the timing under boost, or you'll eat head gasket/pistons/heads! The 24 total should be retarded by 1-1.5 degrees per lb of boost. Thems the numbers in his book.
It does also state that blown flatheads normally want 16-20 degrees total, if no boost retard device is fitted, here is where your timing should be.
Do get the tdc marked up so you can use a light to double check what your really getting out of that red cap. Their very often nowhere near what a flathead needs.
You gota tell us why the heads are off, could be related.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

All typing at the same time!
I agree with them.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

That is the part that confuses me. I have heard some refer to total timing (retard + advance) and then just referred to as advance. I want 4 degrees retard at idle and thought the 24 was after tdc. ????
Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Wow, you guys are fast.

I do have the btm and is set to 1.5 per J. Abbin. Joe is fantastic to deal and work with btw.

My pulley has been marked with tdc and tic marks for timing.

I have tried a dial-back light before and it was all over the place. I was told that they don’t work well with MSD electronic ign. I have a regular light and will try that.

When you say check for timing coming in too late are you just saying to check for max by 3000 rpm? Yes, I am learning about pink, brown, gray, purple springs. LOL

I will start at 4 after at idle and go for 24 total or on the 20 mark on the pulley.

I will put together a post about the heads off soon.

And, thank you so much for your advice and patience with us slow learners.

Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Oh! Never heard on anyone wanting to run a flathead retarded. I would replace "retard + advance" (which is worded correct but a little confusing) with "initial + advance" which would be (-4) + (24) = 20. This is confusing because of the initial being retarded. Distributers actually are in cam degrees so would be half of the value you are stating, 12 vs 24. The 24 is crank degrees. But, the distributer should start at 0 and advance 12 degrees, so in crank degrees it would advance 24 degrees and it starts at the initial, so it would be a total advance of 20 degrees after TDC.

To figure out the rate of timing advance you need a distributer machine or check it with a degree wheel on the crank pulley and check the advance say every 500 rpm and plot it out. Flatheads want a faster advance rate than the stock Mallory typically has.

Does Abbin recommend the retarded initial timing, I don't remember that.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Maybe you can tell me what gauge I use to set the max advance in the distributor. I believe I have 14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28.

Head spinning.

Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Really needs to be on a distributer machine. Are the numbers you listed springs for different maximum advances?

Re: Timing = heating?
 

No, initial timing is not -4. It is 4 degrees before tdc (top dead center) all the rest of the timing is also before top dead centre. None of this happens after tdc.
It can be confusing, with all the terminology. Retarded or late timing is too late for the piston. It's less advanced than it should be.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

do you have a_c

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Those keys are to set the maximum advance of the distributor.
They plop in the gap in the advance plate.
if they are in distributor degrees. This is half crank degrees.
So if you want the distributor to advance 28 degrees, you use the 14 key.
That is if there distributor degrees, I bin'd my years ago, just time them on the engine, they wernt that accurate.
So if they are distributor degrees, you need keys smaller then them.
What is the cam?
If say 3/4 ish cam, you prolly want about 6-8 initial timing + 16 max in the dizzy. This would give you 22-24 total, might go a bit more. But to far costs money with a blower. Prolly all in by 2000rpm. And your boost retard module.
That explain it?
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

There are posts here on locating TDC and then degreeing your crank pulley by using a compass and protrator to make a quick template to fit your crank.
Do this, then get someone to watch a tachometer while you note amount of advance from idle up to 3,000...I'd like advance in considerably befor 3,000 actually, with no supercharger to complicate life. If you reach 3,000 and timing has not maxed out, you need weaker springs in advance.
Flatheads also expect to have the advance curve start to go up immediately above idle. Slow is bad.
With you pulley degreed, a timing light, and a tach your engine is your distributor machine and you are seeing what is actually happening.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

scooder,
I called Mallory and tech told me to add the initial to the key number for total advance then use springs for adjusting rate.

He specifically said that in a perfect world, if I use the 20 key and 4 initial then the timing light will mark the 24 on the pulley at max advance. I think I am beginning to understand thanks to all of you.

Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

I worked on a Model A with a new Miller overhead valve head. It would not run right at all. It also had a Mallory distributer. I called the manufacture of the head who said the timing for that head required at least 60 degrees advance. Since the distributor had a maximum capability of 28 degrees, I had to set initial timing at 32 degrees in order to achieve 60 degrees at 2000 RPM. Malory sell a spring kit (variety of spring tensions) at a reasonable price. I had to end up using the stiffest set in order to get the right advance curve. I almost fainted when I was told I needed 60 degrees advance at 2000 RPM, but car ran great afterwards.
Don in SC

Re: Timing = heating?
 

So Mallory tech said the keys are in crankshaft degrees, that takes some math out of it.
If that's the case, do as he said, and that would meen your timing was retarded, that would run hotter.
And yep, the springs change how fast that advance comes in.
Glad your getting your head around it.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

I also have a 3 bolt e-dist. from Mallory. Had some minor heating issues and Barners suggested checking the timing as set from the factory on the Mallory, but also wasn't happy with the way the engine ran. It was set from factory at 24 as indicated from Mallory. I was told by several Flatty builders the Mallory I have need to be reset using the #14 gauge. The springs which are color coded and have more or less tension are what makes the full advance come in faster or slower. I left the ones that were in there and it works fine for mine. With the blower you may want the springs that let it come to full advance faster. I believe in reading the looser tension lets it come in faster don't remember the colors that do that but if you have the timing kit it tells you. I did #14 gauge setting and reset my timing with the light between 4 and 6 degrees. I had resolved the heating issue with a Spal fan but the engine ran much better with the reset. The e-fan seldom comes on anymore so probably helped the cooling as well. I left the e-fan as it is hidden and unnoticeable between the radiator and grill.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Time for "Bubba"??
Paul

Re: Timing = heating?
 

The post includes heating ? which if your only setting the initial at 4 degrees that low setting will cause heating. Your initial timing for a well built flathead should be at least 10 degrees initial and possibly as much as 12 degrees. If you the initial is set to low when you try to rev the engine it will have a bog and then it will rev this is caused by late timing. The total advance for a blower motor should be no more than 20 degrees. And as others have pointed out you want the total advance in as soon as possible I like to see it all in around 2000 RPM. Mallory's springs are usually to heavy to allow the advance to come in at a low enough RPM point to allow the flathead to run correctly
You may ask how do I know all this its from what I learned driving the many highly modified flatheads I own and have built for others over the last 40 years. Example the blown flathead in my Land Speed Race car has a total of 20 degrees so far on gasoline in the mile the speed is over 174 MPH.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

The initial timing isn't as critical as timing above idle. The important numbers is through the rev range at driving speeds and total.
Sure a real stout cam will want more initial, but for 3/4 ish cams 6-8 should be plenty, if it idles good and the right springs are in there allowing advance to work right off idle and it don't bog, your fine. We don't drive these at idle, and to much initial timing can kick back on the starter, with original starter your gonna be braking the starter spring.
Martin.
These flatheads Will run "ok" with timing a fair way out, but they run great with it set right.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Bubba was in hospital talked to has wife yesterday out now but has put all work has been on hold

Re: Timing = heating?
 

First day back at the shop today gettin it done as fast as i can ...Been a rough couple weeks......
Everything seems to be ok......
This gettin old aint for sissys!!!!!

Re: Timing = heating?
 

I am assuming this is a later model Mallory ignition.
MALLORY URBAN MYTHS:

Most of the late model ( stamped elvis gold insides) come with what i best call a chevrolet curve!! You can bet the tech on the tech line has never touched a flathead .....

This is usually 28 degrees (or more) at 2500 rpm. too much

The plastic keys they give you are a reference and nothing more , we have them but usually adjust on a machine and dont use the keys.

Advance rate is adjusted by bending the spring tabs inward or outward and very seldom do we see the need to change a spring. (this can be done thru a hole in the upper plate on the engine if you are patient...)

I usually set up a blown flathead at 14 degrees maximum with the intial timing set at 0 degrees . Then if more bottom end is needed you can adjust the static to 4-6 degrees etc...

A blower creates and adds heat to the engine and this heat has got to be managed as well....

Re: Timing = heating?
 

While you are on a roll take the distributor our and disasemble the advance unit and remove center from upper shart ( held in with a clip). Remove the factory Mallory silver concrete mix that they use for assemble ( and shelf life) . Clean and relube all parts using a light spray lube and reassemble. You can feel the difference with your hand. Now adjust the small spring ( low speed)tension by bending to obtain a light tension and feel the return ( a snap back) again in your hand. Then adjust the heavy spring to just have light contact with no actual tension when in the returned position.
Might need to lower the advance max adjustment to approx 14 degrees .

You should be able to hold the distributor gear in your hand and feel the advance when turning the rotor and it should always return to the 0 setting when released. Once correct you can feel it !!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Bubba, 14 degrees maximum? He's got a boost retard module, this will retard timing approx 1-1.5 degrees per pound of boost. He should be able to run 24 ish maximum with that retard module.
Also, initial timing, 0 as in zero, zilch nadder? I need to know your thinking here, surely that'll boil itself just idling? Don't sound right to me.
With your spring tab bending, what rpm all in are we looking at here? I normally fit the lightest springs from the kit for a light car with a slightly built flathead. Works good, sometimes I wish there were lighter springs in the kit, would save me fecking about looking for suitable lighter springs then modifying them to fit.
Genuinely looking for your thoughts here, my results seem to differ wildly from yours.
Many thanks,
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

First of all these units are not the best ever made by no means. My first concern is to get the distributor adjusted with a maximum advance stop, so that no matter what happens the advance is no more than 14-16 degrees .
This allows setting the intial as needed based on engine cam shaft , blower set up etc....

The flathead likes the advance curve in fairly early at 2500 rpm or so.. and very seldom do you need a spring change , the bendable tabs are pretty nice. (If so we use the spring kit for a chevrolet from summitt
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mr...make/chevrolet)

I have found theres more work needing to be done to the blown air fuel ratios than the ignition. Especially if your haveing a over heating issue....
:)

Re: Timing = heating?
 

The inital timing isnt critical ? Wow I learn something new every day! :eek:

Re: Timing = heating?
 

I caught that statement as well, but i think what he meant was that the total static timing is the most important number.
The chevy guys running sprinters etc dont ever have a clue where the intial spark timing is but they do know where the maximum advance is for sure. Many just run fixed advance and set the timing with a light at 3000 and above rpm.......never bothering to look at intial.

The mechanical advance curve patches all the other issues in your program that are screwed up..........ie......air fuel ratios, power valves, accel pumps , carb cfms and so on....

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Bubba,
I have a wideband a/f meter to install also. Thanks to all of you I have sure learned a lot these last few days. Love it!!

Fourdy

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Bubba, thanks for your answer explaining your view. I like the all in advance to be earlier than 2500 rpm, hence me changing springs rather than blending the tabs.
Ronnieroadster, I said "as critical" as timing above idle, ie total or maximum advance. I never said it isn't critical. Please don't misquote, it confuses the issue. And I stand by my statement, maximum advance and rate of advance are more important than initial advance.
Fourdy, hope you have a better grasp on what goes on with the ignition.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Fourdy, I just checked out your 24T. I just love it.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

How does advanced timing make an engine run cooler? More effecient burning?

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Advanced timing doesn't make am engine run cooler. Retarded or late timing makes it run hotter.
So if the timing wasn't advanced enough, ie it was retarded, then advancing the timing would make it run cooler. But you've only advanced it to the correct point.
Make sence?
Your on the right track, with the more efficient burning though.
Martin.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Scooder you wrote The initial timing isn't as critical as timing above idle.

This post title Timing= Heating If you start with the initial to low it will cause heating especially in a modified flathead the initial is CRITICAL . Any other way of spinning it is incorrect. My experiance is not be the seat of a computer chair its by the drivers seat of the many flathead powered vehicles I have tuned powered by stock and modifed flatheads.

Re: Timing = heating?
 

Just reporting what I've found in my experience of working with lots of different engines and vehicles. Be they flathead Ford's, overhead valve, overhead cam, twin cam, 4,6,8,12 cylinder
Not going to argue about it, please remember, I never said it's not critical, and I never questioned your experience.
I totally agree, that if the timing is to low, it'll get hotter quicker. I personally think every ignition should be checked for timing, wether that be on a machine or bolted to the engine. Idle-maximum advance. To confirm what the curve really is. I really like to try and get the best I can with the curve. This leads to modifying the curve quite a bit, but I enjoy doing it.
Cheers,

Martin.