Overheating
 

Well, my new Town sedan wants to overheat. Especially if it is over 90 degrees and headed into the sun, under load.

Got home last night from 8 mile trip and it was steaming! Car was sitting 8 years, so I checked the bottom end, Pulled the head and cleaned all carbon out, had the head cleaned, magnafluxd and milled, .010, new head gasket, of course, new points and condenser, rebuilt Distributer, Set the timing, verified full advance travel, went through the Carb, adjusted and running great, had radiator cleaned and repaired., Rebuilt the water pump.

Overheated with a thermostat in, today I took it out, and it didn't overheat, but still seemed pretty warm, Outside temps was about 10 degrees cooler. No brakes dragging. Running out of ideas. My roadster will run in these conditions with no issues at all.

Re: Overheating
 

Get an inexpensive meat thermometer tomorrow and check the water temperature to see just how hot it is getting. Is the water level just a bit too high causing it to steam and bubble over making it look worse than it is?

Re: Overheating
 

Like a tea kettle last night,
Had to add over a gallon this morning. Definitely hot.

Re: Overheating
 

I did read that one, the passages did not look overconcerning. Good water circulation. I was a little heavy handed with the copper coat but I don't think enough the plug the holes in the block. As I mentioned I seem to have plenty of circulation.

Re: Overheating
 

1. do a compression test to be sure you are not blowing exhaust into the water jacket, despite what you have done to the head, etc. Be sure to re-torque the head several times; once is NOT enough

2. Double, triple check your timing. A late motor will run hot as can be. Timing screws up more Barners than I could ever have imagined. Despite that you have another A that runs fine. If you have a timing lite, put'er on there just for kicks and giggles. Review Marco's pics of how the rotor should be; it can't hurt.
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm

3. be certain the overflow pipe is up in the rad. as far (high) as it can go; put a large roofing nail in the pipe per wild Bill Williamson (search here) or use a short length of fuel line hose to extend the tube up as high as you can get it; the A water pump is known to wanna pump all its precious water out the overflow

report back

Re: Overheating
 

There was a ford service bulletin I remember some one said that called for bending the overflow tube, near the radiator cap, towards the windshield. This was to help with loosing coolant and overheating. Someone here will likely produce the service bulletin, or research the bulletins.

Re: Overheating
 

Remove the fan belt and fill the radiator to the top, then goose the throttle several times and look for bubbles at the fill neck. This will tell you if you have a leaking gasket. There are also exhaust sniffers made for this, which will detect an exhaust leak into the coolant.

Re: Overheating
 

Some good advice above. I think you will find the timimg retarded, at least I hope so, its the easiest to fix.:). One other thing you might try is to open the GAV a little more, especially if you are running ethanol fuel. A lean motor will run hotter than normal. Good Luck!

Re: Overheating
 

It's been my opinion for some time that the 28-29 Model As are a bit "under-radiator'ed" - or at least more sensitive to adversities in this area.

One of the reasons (probably) that Ford provided a larger and improved thermally radiator for the 1930-31 cars.

Above they've talked about "flushing" - both radiator and engine block. Also flow aspect of the pump (which your thermostat tends to correct - but only as a band-aid to flow problems between upper and lower tanks.) And also timing as it affects heat release and conversion of thermal energy into mechanical energy.

The radiator may need rodding - sometimes mechanical removal is the only way.

The radiator may also be subject to the dreaded "solder corrosion issue" which as the name implies is a corrosion based deterioration of the thermal connection between the radiator fins and the tubes themselves. You may be able to detect this by checking in various spots to see if the fins can be "moved" on the tubes.

The problem with these last two failure modes is that they are gradual - and to casual appearance the radiator may be fine - but heat transfer impeded.

The fin/solder corrosion issue is particularly difficult since it's probably not time effective to completely re-make an original radiator - and a replacement may be your only option.

Hopefully you'll find the solution in the earlier mentioned remedies.

Joe K

Re: Overheating
 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I am pretty sure I have covered them all. I have determined there is no compression leak into the water jacket, and I am not losing water. (at lower ambient temps I am not losing water at all.) the timing has been checked and double checked, as well as the advance lever travel. The radiator was checked and cleaned by the Radiator guy and is in good shape.
I am guessing I got too much Copper coat on the gasket and it is partially blocking some of the water passages, guess there is only one way to find out..........

Re: Overheating
 

I'm wondering if a few heating/cooling cycles and a little running shook some crud loose from the block and partially stopped up your radiator again. Even if you were a little heavy-handed with the copper coat, I would'nt think it would be that much.
If you know somebody that has one of those IR heat detectors, check to see if the temps are consistent over the whole radiator.
It just seems that you arent rejecting the heat from the water to the air properly, whether its the interior heat transfer surfaces being fouled, or, as mentioned above, the fin/tube connection isnt working correctly.
I'd try the vinegar flush and see how it looks before I bought another radiator.
Good Luck.:)

Re: Overheating
 

I have taken off the inlet casting on the drivers side of the motor and found alot of rust in the passages between the cylinders. Back flushing, probing and air from the upper neck can dislodge some of this scale. Do you have grease in the block from the waterpump? That dissolves with simple green. Then follow with the vinegar treatment can help to attack the scale. The head is another good source of scale. Scale will plug/restrict the passages, and the nice clean radiator.

Re: Overheating
 

I think I will pull that off and look inside before I pull the head. After it was cleaned the head looks good.

Re: Overheating
 

To avoid pulling the head and looking for a cracked block in my car I spent alot of time with every other method I could think of to solve a cronic problem of loosing coolant. Back flushing was most effective (the best yield of scale) after the mechanical probing and air blasting from above. There is a dead spot behind #4 you probably will not reach. There is a problem with mismatching head to block where I disremember the block had to be drilled to match a hole in the head between either 1&2, or 3&4, or both locations. Without the holes added there were dead spots.
I would concentrate now on making the block scale free. And restrict the overflow by bill williamsons magic nail. Take the suggestions one at a time. Otherwise, you may miss what the problem really was in the final analysis. Remember slow and methodical is probably the best method, and a case of beer. In the end I learned the block was cracked.

Re: Overheating
 

we are all missing something. (although cracked block will be hard to tell from this distance....should still get bubbles in top of rad., tho).

I am having trouble believing head gasket sealant could do this. It would take gobs, and it was overheating BEFORE you re-did the head.

I am still wondering if somehow the timing is off. Dimple in timing gear in wrong place? Two dimples? Remove plug #1 and bring # 1 up to TDC slowly while trying to insert the timing pin. Piston should hit top of travel as the pin drops in

an earlier suggestion to use a thermometer (the IR guns are great for this) to determine what the actual temp is before going further is also worthwhile

Re: Overheating
 

I had the same problem with my tudor four years ago. So ill stick my two cents in and say i had my radiator re-cored and that did it. latecomer

Re: Overheating
 

New Bergs Radiator earlier this year fixed my problem.

Re: Overheating
 

Bite the bullet and spring for a new radiator! It will either solve the problem or at least eliminate one of the possible causes! Old round tube radiators (especially the 28-29's) were marginal at best when new. No matter what you do to those eight decade old cores, they will never be as efficient as when they were when new and they weren't that great then! I ordered a radiator from Tam's a few years ago on a Monday morning, it was delivered Tuesday afternoon by UPS and I installed it that evening! All my over heating problems vanished and the engine ran so cool (130 degrees max) I had to install a 180 degree thermostat (the 160 degree one I tried first barely raised the coolant temp)! Believe me, I did everything practical to that old round core radiator, but it persisted on having uneven core temps even though it passed the so called flow test easily!

Re: Overheating
 

Well ,we may have found the culprit. BTW I don't know if it was overheating before I did the head, as I went through it as soon as I got it. ( and you know they all ran great when last used it in 2006) But I pulled the water intake off and was surprised the inside just didn't look too bad. So off with his head. Well lo a behold the 1/4 inch water passage behind #4 was completely plugged. There was some minor scaling but nothing that looks too serious, but since I am leaving for 10 days, perfect time to fill her up with vinegar and let her cook. seems plausible as it was OK in average temps but above 90 degrees outside and it took off. A real good flushing. put her back together and hopefully.........

Re: Overheating
 

Radiator....Radiator....Radiator! Don't start by making this harder than it is. Look for the obvious. Ask yourself the important questions? Is this at least a 3 core radiator? Is it in good shape?

I chased this demon for a couple of years and looked for everything before I realized I had a light duty 2 core radiator that worked fine as long as the outside temp was below 90 degrees. Let it get above that and it could not keep up.

Start with the radiator and if that is it call Gery at Bergs Radiators and get him to build you one.

Re: Overheating
 

I had a Model A a few years ago with the same problem; I couldn't figure it out. The water pump seemed ok but it turned out that although the shaft and propellor turned correctly the shaft was broken behind the packing nut. Everything looked fine but the impellor was sheard off behind the nut.

Re: Overheating
 

As I mentioned above, I had the radiator completely cleaned, inspected, and some minor repairs done, by a good radiator shop. It is a triple flat core radiator.

Re: Overheating
 

Bill
Since you found #4 water jacket plugged you have to think that maybe some of that crud might have traveled into the radiator and is restricting flow. I would flush the radiator really well if not have it cleaned, (rodded out), again to be sure.

Just a thought so you cover all your bases.

Re: Overheating
 

An engine is only going to produce a certain amount of heat! The total heat output does not rise that much if the cooling passages around a cylinder are clogged! Sure there will be additional friction which produces heat, but how much can that be compared to the heat of combustion? In the case of clogged cooling passages, less heat would be transferred to the coolant, not more! The heat not absorbed by the coolant because of the clogging, would have to be absorbed by the block and radiated to the atmosphere via the outside surface of the block and the oil pan or escape via the exhaust. A radiator with adequate capacity should be able to handle the reduced heat transfer because of a clog! I suspect your radiator even though you have clogged cooling passages! I took my problem radiator to a competent shop and even though they worked on it, they made it clear to me that it was old and might not work! It cost me forty five dollars to learn that lesson!

Re: Overheating
 

an A has marginal cooling at best. so now it is OK to have a clogged block?

Re: Overheating
 

I'm with you tbirdtbird. A clogged block will in my experience cause an overheating problem. A long time ago I had a Fiat X19 that exploded and caught fire. After repair it kept overheating. It was rubber that went into the water jackets that restricted the water flow through the engine. Had to steam it all out and then it cooled perfect.

With the design of the A engine I would think any restriction of water flow could cause an overheating problem including using too much silicone to install the head. Actually I believe there was a thread recently on the Barn that said they had an overheating issue because someone used too much sealant when installing the head.

Re: Overheating
 

Be sure to check the intake manifold to block for a vacuum leak.
JB

Re: Overheating
 

Yep.
"The heat not absorbed by the coolant because of the clogging, would have to be absorbed by the block and radiated to the atmosphere via the outside surface of the block"

It is well-established physics that dictates that heat transfer via water is MUCH more effective than via air

Re: Overheating
 

Having the radiator serviced really means nothing unless the tanks are removed and tubes are rodded out,I went through this with a studebaker,changed and checked everything but still ran hot,I finally had the radiator recored,at last normal temp in hot summer.

Re: Overheating
 

What does everyone think of waterless coolant. No corrosion and 360 degree boiling point sound like a good idea to me.

Re: Overheating
 

I side with the guys who are telling you to do something with the radiator. Over the years, the water pump was lubricated with the wrong grease. When hot, the grease carries over to the radiator, cools and deposits in the core. I had the top of my radiator off and sprayed Gunk degreaser into each tube and carefully rodded them out, pushing the grease and rust into the lower tank and rinsing it out. A radiator shop could not possibly get enough pressure and velocity flow into each tube to do the job. After the job, the car ran at 160F on the hottest days. Look at other posts in the archives on how to rod out a radiator. Ed

Re: Overheating
 

I agree with Ed about how the grease forms in the tubes, and removing the tank and rodding the tubes is the very best solution, but I wanted to try to avoid that if possible. So, I used about half a cup of Cascade and water for 3 days, then switched to pure white vinegar for 30 days. I also removed my radiator and turned it upside down and connected it to a sump pump to backflush it. This did work in my case.:)

Re: Overheating
 

Imagine the block was completely clogged with rust! How much heat would be transferred by the coolant to the radiator? Little to none! The more clogged your cooling passages in your engine, the less heat can be transferred to the radiator by the coolant! Your engine will overheat with clogged cooling passages because the coolant isn't transferring the heat to the radiator! The block is forced to absorb the heat which is eventually transferred to the atmosphere while your pistons score the cylinder walls and finally seize up! The only heat being transferred to the radiator is by steam in this scenario! It's not he radiator's fault that it is steaming! And the excessive heat is going to be transferred to the atmosphere by the block in this scenario! That's all I am trying to say!

Re: Overheating
 

If you are trying to say that a clogged block will cause overheating then I am with you 100%

Re: Overheating
 

If the engine is blocked, the radiator probably is too!

Ours ran fine most of the time, except steep climbs where it would push water out the over flow and cap.

We had the radiator opened and rodded out, and got about 1.5 cups of crap out of it, just from the mechanical process! They soaked it after that.

Runs perfectly well now, even on long steep climbs in hot weather - we've since added a thermostat(160F) and temp gauge, and worst i've seen since was about 195F on a long steep climb, where I was starting to get concerns about double clutching and actually making it into FIRST gear while moving :eek:

Re: Overheating
 

When you have a problem like this how well do "extra cooling" mods help? Such as more blade fans or fan shrouds? I know it's not fixing the problem but they are way cheaper than a new radiator.

Re: Overheating
 

look at it this way a new radiator is cheaper than a new engine if you running it hotter than it should be with mods
and then in the end youll need a radiator and engine

thats if the block is not clogged

Re: Overheating
 

Well, we finally made it. I cleaned all the block passages, and let the block sit for 10 days, full of vinegar. That got a lot of rust out. I put a flexible light inside the lower tank and could see through the tubes so I knew at least the center ones were in pretty good shape. I noticed the radiator was leaking behind the hood rod mount, and the radiator had guy told me that he was afraid to do anything with it. So I decided to bite the bullet and head to Bert's. Steve explained to me that even though it was a triple tube radiator, because the tubes were all in a line, the rear ones weren't getting much air. Now I have a calm, cool, collected, Town sedan with a beautiful 4 tube radiator.

Re: Overheating
 

Persistence eventually pays off. Bob