Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Sagged chassis was looking around for something to chain it down to, a nearby railway track was not available.

Mate suggested a pipe bender.

After a look, it worked fine.

A 12 ton pipe bender fits under chassis and I chained it down at either end and blocked the chassis channel section to stop it twisting and crushing and simply pumped the bender.

Came out dead straight in 5 minutes.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Another way to do it is like a basic trailer with either angle iron side rails or pipe rails. Chain the frame down sideways on the trailer. And then you can jack up on it.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Hopefully it will stay straight as now the frame has been stretched in two places. I realize folks use the bending method but the easier, -better way in my opinion is to use heat to shrink the original area that was stretched. This makes the entire frame rail equal strength throughout.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I know you have explained these concepts repeatedly on the Barn and I am sure you are correct; but for present purposes can you briefly explain how these concepts are reconciled with the warnings we see in the
Bulletins that chassis parts should be straightened while cold, not heated,,,,

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Here is a link to a few pictures of a project where we straightened the frame on a 29.

1929 Frame Straightening

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

If it took 80 ODD YEARS to sag, how long will it take to sag again, regardless if you did it HOT or COLD or with a SLEDGEHAMMER & a BLOCK of wood or a HOUSEMOVER'S JACK!
I left a note under Vermin's L/H scuffplate: "Gregg my son, be sure to jack up Vermin's saggy frame rails in 2093, Dad"

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I would not use heat if I did not have to.

The frame was pressed cold back in 1928, the metal deforming process in pressing gives it some of strength also in the right angle bends along with its upper and lower chords.

It has taken 85 years of pounding to make it sag 1/4 inch, and most likely half of this was on dirt potholed roads in its early life.

To heat it unnecessarily in my opinion would weaken it at the point of heat, not restore it to a uniform original strength.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

First let me start by offering that someone suggesting it took the frame 80-odd years to sag is like seeing a flat tire on a Model-A wheel and suggesting it took 80-odd years for the tire to go flat! :rolleyes: In real world some of us live in, we know that just isn't the case is it? ;)



Now you refer to the Service Bulletins as warning against using heat on chassis parts. I fail to recall it specifically mentioning using heat on a frame rail but maybe if you have time, you can PM me the page number(s) where I can read it in the proper context.

To answer specifically about the frame rails, we need to start from the very beginning. The frame rail was stamped cold however it was formed in a specific way through known engineering techniques. The frame rail steel is much like a rubber band that has been allowed to normalize. You can stretch the rubber band however when you do, it will get thinner during the process. The thinner area is always weaker than a non-stretched area. This same mindset applies to the steel in a frame rail too. Unlike the rubber band, the metal does not have the ability to return to its' former state. Therefore when someone tries to bend the metal back to the original shape, the metal can only stretch in another area. Now we have created two structurally weaker areas. Now I will quickly agree that our Model-A's will likely never see the same adverse conditions they once did however isn't that a lame excuse to perform a substandard repair, ...especially when doing it correctly involves the same amount of labor with a superior end result?

The comment about using heat likely comes from "He said / She said" mindset where someone who was uneducated about the process made a comment that seemed believable, and now others have accepted it as fact. I have listened for years about some saying Ford parts have Vanadium in the steel and so it cannot be heated. When the truth is known, there is only trace amounts of Vanadium and the reason it was used was as a rust-prevention method, --not as a strength enhancer. The percentage of the Vanadium used is not of enough quantity to add any significant amount of extra strength.

Next, using heat on many parts can be compared to doing bodywork. Just because you purchased a gallon can of Bondo does not mean you must use the entire can on the body in one application. It is meant to be used in moderation and by only the amount that is truly needed. The same mindset applies about shrinking metal. There is not any need to heat the frame rail any hotter than it takes to make steam rise when water is placed on the hot surface. Just like using too much Bondo to fill a dent, turning the frame metal "red hot" is only abusing the metal and serves no useful purpose. Only an unskilled craftsman would do such a thing solely due to ignorance about the task he is trying to accomplish. One of the main reasons why we are involved in this type of forum is to gain knowledge on how to do something better and expand our abilities. For the folks who have tried the method of heat shrinking a bent frame (--or wheel, or sheetmetal), I have yet to hear anything but positive feedback from their results.

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Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I like to think of it this way, you know these bendy straws, the ones that you bend and the stay bent? One bent if you straighten the straw without collapsing some of the rings the straw will get longer.

As for the frame, how much longer, and will it made any real difference is the question.

If one is truly trying to restore the car as is left the factory I would think shrinking would be the answer. The question to you the restorer would be; how much is the bend, do I have the skills to heat shrink the bend, will if effect the rest of the build?

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Thanks Mike. I am not sure if all figures are applicable, ...and I really do not have the time to study them for validity at the moment but they add a dimension that I do want to explore when more time is available. I will say that it has been my experience that metal will stretch much easier than compress given the same amount of pressure in either direction. Maybe this is appearance alone but I find metal will usually re-arrange its' shape instead of compressing.

One thought/question about what Mike is suggesting is regarding the compressing of the upper chord. To bend something, doesn't a fulcrum need to be added to the equation? If so, wouldn't the top rail be the fulcrum? If so, it would become the strongest point so, I doubt much compression would be seen as a permanent set.

I have included some pictures of a Roadster pick-up frame below that had endured a hard life up until the time for restoration. I know this as fact because the owner's grandfather used it in his brick masonry business for many years hauling brick and mortar to the jobsite. This frame was sagging in several areas all exceeding .250" below a horizontal plane. The heat marks pretty much show the areas where heat & water were applied and to what part of the metal was moved (shrunk) to bring it into proper alignment.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I'm glad you took the time to get it right. We see so many bent frames on so called restored cars. I can not tell you how many times I have told some one that they needed to straiten there frame first. But they do not bother.
Then do not understand why the hood and body do not fit right.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

A neighbor and I straightened the frame in my coupe a couple of years ago. On Brents advice we used heat to straighten the frame using only enough to bring steam off the heated part of the frame rails. My neighbor is a race car fabricator and has a big steel table which he uses to build chassis, it is perfectly flat. He also told me that heating is the method he uses to straingten rear axle housings when the have been damaged in a wreck.
Been about 5 years and the frame is still holding alignment.
Steve

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Heating low carbon steel is just bad news.

Yield strength can be reduced by almost 50% - hence the need to cold form in the first place.

In addition, it is common place for truck manufacturers (such as Ford) to specify that no heat be applied while straightening a frame (this is for a modern truck....).

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Are you certain about this? While I am not any metallurgist, mild-steel is just opposite of the characteristics you are suggesting. Modern truck frames are a high-tensile strength. Excessive heat is bad news for them and on a high-tensiled frame, I do agree with you that heat could likely reduce that by 50%.

On the other hand, mild-steel is very acceptable to heat and welding, and is often shaped or even forged with heat. Therefore I feel very comfortable in saying that heating to the proper level to create a shrink will not perform any adverse weakening effects to a frame.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Brent - a structural engineer begs to differ with you.....

However, it is probably meaningless since the frame design in the Model A is probably overkill in the first place.

You also need to watch words like "yield strength" and "tensile strength". You can change the properties of steel (which these words allude too) but you cannot increase the overall strength of steel by heating it.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

........? ? ?

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Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

The AA might be overkill for most purposes, but the Model A frame is barely OK for not so fat people.:D:p

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Overkill?

The frame twists at the steering box mount when you turn the steering wheel.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Sorry guys - was just trying to find a friendly way not to start an argument :rolleyes:

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

It doesn't take much of anything to start an arguement (ie: difference of opinion expressed very loudly) around here! :D

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Brent nowhere do the Service Bulletins address frame straightening, but only parts like the front axle.

on the other hand there are remarks in the service literature about straightening the spokes in the wheels, which I think is a process that you have previously disapproved of.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Well now. I hope you are happy. LOL. :D:D:D

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Here's some information from the collision industry that explains that heat can be used to bend some structural steels such as Model A frames. It's interesting to note over heating (greater than 1200 degrees) will damage the metal properties.

http://www.i-car.com/pdf/fordfram.pdf

http://www.i-car.com/html_pages/tech...ml#Anchor-3800

http://genuinegmparts.com/pdf/techIn...ity_Matrix.pdf

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

If you heat the frame beyond the "straw" color like on Brent's frame and then cool it with water, will the steel be hardened, crystallized, more brittle, etc. so that the frame could crack in that spot?

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

No, low carbon steel does not harden like as in "heat treating".

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Brent, what color change is the steel frame achieving before you apply the wet rag, and how big an area are you doing on each heating? Thank you.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Generally it doesn't change color while the flame is on it, but after it has been quickly cooled by water. I guess I need to use an infra-red thermometer the next time we do it to know exactly but my guess is 400-500 degrees is hot enough. Ironically, we cure powder during powderpainting at 400° in our oven.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

does anyone know why the part of the frame that always bends seems to be the driver's side? certainly the engine weight is relatively balanced between the two sides.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

The driver's weight and the battery weight would be a factor.

Engine torque would be pressing the passenger side down.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I'm just curious how much of a problem the bent chassis is with the "T". It sure starts out less rigid than the "A" frame.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Check this out:

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

OOooo, I had forgotten about that article. Kinda bad news IMO but it does help prove my point though. (They are recommending "over-stretching" the frame rail to compensate.) It also makes me shake my head at the 'stuff' they want you to use. Now let me see, where can I find two 10' sections of rail road track?? :confused: Oh, and now I need to find another bottle jack, and 4 long pieces of chain. :( :o :p


One thing that I will add from my experiences is that I don't think we always find they are bent more on the driver's side. Maybe it is coincidence?

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I think drivers weight, battery, and steering gear when in the old roads hitting bumps with the wheels would put pressure on the frame. But who knows for sure. I will say out of the 25 A's I have owned most were bent on the driver side. I had one 30 town sedan with 85,000 that was not bent. I though it lived in town and was not on that many rough roads.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I have not thought about the steering gear. I can see why all the bumpy roads and shock to the steering components could transfer load to the frame.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Does low carbon steel anneal?
My limited metallurgy knowledge tells me that heating it enough to soften it enough to bend would. How does one put the strength back in the steel after this process?

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I am not following. :o Exactly what or where would the loads be transferred to? I would think any heavy hit would affect the radius (wishbone) ball that is attached to the clutch housing and not the drag link. The steering sector housing when bolted to the frame would more than brace the area in the frame compromised by the hole for the sector shaft, wouldn't it? If anything, there should be a slight amount of triangulated bracing as the steering column is attached to the gas tank thus making that side a tad more rigid. Also, wouldn't most bumps and obstacles on the road be on the passenger side as they would be positioned more to the side of the road (curbs, gutters, washouts, etc.)?

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Glad to see you guys have learn't the first lesson about body and frame repair. Give one job to six different tech's and they all will do the job. Maybe six different ways but they will get it done. Good, bad or whatever!! I've learn't this after 20 years of teaching and doing this trade. And yes I understand metal and how it works. I wrote a book on it!!! And I've had great discussions on mild steel and if it can be damaged or hardened with heat and cooling. Does it change,doesn't change? All I know is that by heat shrinking the metal it becomes harder to hammer because the molecules become locked up or shrunk!!

My two cents worth: The Old Tinbasher.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

Brent, my theory is that any pothole or quick driving movement against an obstruction could transfer to the pitman arm and then twist the steering box.

Re: Straightened a chassis yesterday
 

I'm a little confused, are you in favor of heating or otherwise, thanks.