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Old 09-09-2011, 07:05 PM   #1
Jose Cartin
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Default model A and model B lifters

I wander if some one can tell me if I can use vave lifter from a model (A) in to a model (B) camshaft anny help will bi Apreciated thanks Jose.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:45 PM   #2
James Rogers
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Jose Cartin View Post
I wander if some one can tell me if I can use vave lifter from a model (A) in to a model (B) camshaft anny help will bi Apreciated thanks Jose.
Yes you can. The B style tappets are not available that know of. The difference in the A and B is, B's have a larger base. This doesn't stop you from using the A style on a B cam.
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

Check out Vince Falter's website, (fordgarage.com) in the index, go down to Repo Valve Lifter.
I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles.
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:23 AM   #4
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by abennett View Post
Check out Vince Falter's website, (fordgarage.com) in the index, go down to Repo Valve Lifter.
I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles.

I also checked out Vince's site. Vince gives good information there concerning problems with the use of model A tappets on the B cam. All of my engines are model A but I run B cams in a couple of them. I knew that the base of the tappets were different but was told at some time in the past that B lifters were also longer. Vince doesn't mention difference in length so maybe it isn't so. I allways used the adjustable single lock lifters and they are a lot easier to work with and have had no problems with them.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by abennett View Post
Check out Vince Falter's website, (fordgarage.com) in the index, go down to Repo Valve Lifter.
I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles.
"I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles"
Q...WHY, if you know?
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
I also checked out Vince's site. Vince gives good information there concerning problems with the use of model A tappets on the B cam. All of my engines are model A but I run B cams in a couple of them. I knew that the base of the tappets were different but was told at some time in the past that B lifters were also longer. Vince doesn't mention difference in length so maybe it isn't so. I allways used the adjustable single lock lifters and they are a lot easier to work with and have had no problems with them.


All Ford made "A" and "B" cams had the lobe tip .779" from the center line making it .001" smaller than the cam journals as shown below. To increase the lift on the "B" cam they reduced the base circle of the lobe which in turn required taller tappets to make up the difference.

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Old 09-10-2011, 01:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

So the B tappets are longer. Thanks Marco.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
"I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles"
Q...WHY, if you know?

The smaller base of the A lifter, dropping off the cam lobe quicker and scrapeing down the side of the lobe and causing rapid wear. At least that is the way that I understand it after reading what Vince had to say.
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by abennett View Post
Check out Vince Falter's website, (fordgarage.com) in the index, go down to Repo Valve Lifter.
I used A lifters on a B cam and both were eaten up in 2500 miles.
We have used A lifters, on B cams, and B grinds, on A cams, for over 40 years with out distinction, and have absolutely NO problems. If yours were eaten up, I don't think you had found the real cause, as there are other things that can cause that, such as type of oil, reground cam and not rehardened, soft lifters, and a big one, debris left in the engine, such as, machine filings, This condition is not uncommon. There is a Machine Shop, that I know very well, had to redo some parts in a motor, that the Previous Rebuilder of a very few miles, used Time Saver to try to finish a bearing job that the rebuilder should have done with with a correctly ground crank, and correctly Align Bored Bearings. He had slopped this Timer saver stuff, all over the inside of the engine, and DID NOT clean it out, before he BUTTONED it up. You have to chemically clean any dirt, or at least any iron Particles, out, and off your engine parts be for assembly, and you have to use the correct type of cleaning machine. The best one that I have seen, and there may be better, is the stand up dish washer type, they use a very powerfull jet spray with their Chemical. The hot tanks with out agitation, are useless, the hot tank with Agitation is better, but I have seen nothing as good as the dish washer style. The last thing I will say, in my opinion, any thing that cuts bearing metal, cast, Brass Ect., has no place in an engine to compensate for poor machine work, or know how. Herm.
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:13 PM   #10
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

I'm guessing that if you used model A lifters with a B cam it would be necessary to use modern valves to make up for the .032 difference in the length of B lifters as compaired to the shorter model A lifters.
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
We have used A lifters, on B cams, and B grinds, on A cams, for over 40 years with out distinction, and have absolutely NO problems. If yours were eaten up, I don't think you had found the real cause, as there are other things that can cause that, such as type of oil, reground cam and not rehardened, soft lifters, and a big one, debris left in the engine, such as, machine filings, This condition is not uncommon. There is a Machine Shop, that I know very well, had to redo some parts in a motor, that the Previous Rebuilder of a very few miles, used Time Saver to try to finish a bearing job that the rebuilder should have done with with a correctly ground crank, and correctly Align Bored Bearings. He had slopped this Timer saver stuff, all over the inside of the engine, and DID NOT clean it out, before he BUTTONED it up. You have to chemically clean any dirt, or at least any iron Particles, out, and off your engine parts be for assembly, and you have to use the correct type of cleaning machine. The best one that I have seen, and there may be better, is the stand up dish washer type, they use a very powerfull jet spray with their Chemical. The hot tanks with out agitation, are useless, the hot tank with Agitation is better, but I have seen nothing as good as the dish washer style. The last thing I will say, in my opinion, any thing that cuts bearing metal, cast, Brass Ect., has no place in an engine to compensate for poor machine work, or know how. Herm.
Your opinion makes sense to me! Cleanliness is next to perfection in fine engine work..I've always been indocrinated!

Also, I've been told/informed (by cam people, in answer to my Q re reground cams) that NO ONE rehardens the surface on 'reground cams'. Anyone have an opinion whether that is TRUE?

Herm...if B lifter has larger base than A..AND THAT'S GOOD..Why doesn't someone make an even larger base that the B lifter has
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Old 09-10-2011, 04:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
The smaller base of the A lifter, dropping off the cam lobe quicker and scrapeing down the side of the lobe and causing rapid wear. At least that is the way that I understand it after reading what Vince had to say.
Here we go with another Falters theory time again Kids! Mr. Hardtimes, I have forgotten to ask if your lifters and cam were new, or reground??? If it was as Falters theory goes, I should have gotten all the motors with B cams, and Model A lifters back. Gosh, How could I be so Lucky. If you are using shorter Model A lifters, that would make no difference at all with adjustable Lifters. I just have checked the New lifters in Dave's engine, from Ne. and the new lifters that had a Model B parts number on them, stick past the fresh ground "A" lobe anywhere from .040 to .055 thousandths, each side of the Model A lobe, plenty to handle the Model B cam. Now if you want the "A" lifters, If you cant find any B's to match the cam lobe surface, you can releave the lobe on the cam .035 on each, if for some reanson you want them to match, but I wouldn't. I have never seen a Model T cam that didn't have a portion of the toe, at standard length, and the rest of the toe that was wore .020, or less. Herm.

P.S. The lifters came from Berts Model A, and they are a hard body, as the lifter body, and bolt will laugh at a file! I am sure other places have them as well.

Last edited by Kohnke Rebabbitting; 09-10-2011 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 09-10-2011, 04:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

Ya, Mr. Hardtimes, I asked you the wrong Question, as it should have been asked of ABENNET. Same Question Sir, were your cam and lifters New, or Reground!! Thanks Herm.
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Old 09-10-2011, 04:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
Your opinion makes sense to me! Cleanliness is next to perfection in fine engine work..I've always been indocrinated!

Also, I've been told/informed (by cam people, in answer to my Q re reground cams) that NO ONE rehardens the surface on 'reground cams'. Anyone have an opinion whether that is TRUE?

Herm...if B lifter has larger base than A..AND THAT'S GOOD..Why doesn't someone make an even larger base that the B lifter has
Mr. Hardtimes, the cams that we put in, and have reground, all are surface hardened. You can tell by looking at the lobes on your cam, as if it was done, they should be Black, or Brown. They will not last as long with out it. Them that say that it is not done, or don't need it, don't Know, or can't afford what it takes to do it. Herm.

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Old 09-10-2011, 05:33 PM   #15
Purdy Swoft
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

When I mention model A lifters, I'm not talking about adjustable lifters, I am refering to original model A lifters. Its just common sense to me if the length of the original model B lifter is longer than the original model A lifter, This in itself will cause a problem with valve adjustment clearance if model A original lifters are used with a model B cam, especially if it is a regrind, regardless of lifter base size. It seems to me that to make up the differance in length, if original model A lifters were used with a B cam would require cutting the seats deeper or useing longer, as in modern style valves.

Now If Jose Cartin, that started this thread is going to try and use model A lifters with a model B cam and use the valves that are in his engine he will end up with a huge clearance between lifter and valve stem. That is unless someone has previously installed modern valves with longer stems or he plans on sending it out for some machine work.
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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What theories are you referring to?
Maybe you should read the referenced page before you shoot your mouth off again.

I find it interesting that despite your numerous self-proclamations and advertising, I have never known or heard of anyone in 40 years in the hobby who has admitted to having one of your engines, or any testimonial from a customer on Ford Barn.

Lots of favorable testimonials on FB for a number of other Model A engine rebuilders, but none for you. That says a lot to me.
Well Falter, it is like this, I haven't needed any testimonials after the first 4, or 5 years that we were in business, and it is anything but a Hobby. It got a little slim with in the 4, to 6 Months after 911, not much work ahead, but always work. Most of our work is for the machine shops that rebuild the Engines, in Laymen terms Falter they say they have to use rebuilt bearings that don't blow up, as they would have to make the warranty's good, as my Dad always said, if you don't have time to do anything RIGHT, when are you going to find time to do it OVER. One, thing, we are NOT just Model A engine rebuliders, we Do ALL ENGINES. I know some times I sound like I am bragging, but Falter, there just isn't any other way to say it for me, and if I can't back it up, I don't say it. With that said, I have learned much on the Ford Barn also, not so much mechanical, but all the changes, in the Model, T, A, B, and V-8's. I will tell you another way that you don't have to have Testimonials. I started a band, of country, Bluegrass, and 50's, in 1977, In 6 Months of our first booking, we were full a year in advance, and all the time after that, and we didn't have to take anybody along with us for Testimonials, that we had played a Wedding Dance , Bars, and Rodeo's, we even played for 3 Divorce's, Heck of a Party.

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Old 09-10-2011, 05:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
I'm guessing that if you used model A lifters with a B cam it would be necessary to use modern valves to make up for the .032 difference in the length of B lifters as compaired to the shorter model A lifters.
You are probably right Mr. Purdy, as we always use the modern valves. Herm.
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
When I mention model A lifters, I'm not talking about adjustable lifters, I am refering to original model A lifters. Its just common sense to me if the length of the original model B lifter is longer than the original model A lifter, This in itself will cause a problem with valve adjustment clearance if model A original lifters are used with a model B cam, especially if it is a regrind, regardless of lifter base size. It seems to me that to make up the differance in length, if original model A lifters were used with a B cam would require cutting the seats deeper or useing longer, as in modern style valves.

Now If Jose Cartin, that started this thread is going to try and use model A lifters with a model B cam and use the valves that are in his engine he will end up with a huge clearance between lifter and valve stem. That is unless someone has previously installed modern valves with longer stems or he plans on sending it out for some machine work.
The valves we use, on A's, and B's we have to cut off about .125 thousandths to work, I would think they could be made to work in every case??? Thanks Herm.
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

Thanks Herm, I agree. It just wouldn't be something that someone trying to use original model A lifters in an unmodified original engine with a model B cam would be set up to handle.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: model A and model B lifters

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Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting View Post
Mr. Hardtimes, the cams that we put in, and have reground, all are surface hardened. You can tell by looking at the lobes on your cam, as if it was done, they should be Black, or Brown. They will not last as long with out it. Them that say that it is not done, or don't need it, don't Know, or can't afford what it takes to do it. Herm.
Herm,
Thanks for explanation. Hmm, I have a NOS B cam and you are right on...as it has BLACK colored lobes. Copper color in between.
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