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10-02-2021, 12:07 PM | #1 |
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Which Shaft is Broken
While cruising peacefully at 40 mph on a level stretch of road, Henry (my '41 coupe) failed to respond to a slight throttle movement. Engine would rev and clutch felt normal, but no go. Fortunately I was on a road with wide shoulders. No go in any gear, and the speedometer registered, so something broke back past the speedo gear.
Been there before, but it was always when doing some hot rod thing. This happened while just cruising. There was no clank or bang. I could hear a little rattle noise from the rear end. After getting home on a roll-back I popped the hubcaps and idled the engine in low gear. The shafts are locked tight to the hubs, so it is not a sheared key. Listened to both hubs with a bar to my ear and the rattle sound seems the same on both sides. Methinks drive shaft. How do I tell for sure whether it is the drive shaft or an axle. Maybe pull the fill plug and see if the ring gear is turning with the engine in gear at idle? Also, the rear end is original '41; will the axle be 16 or 18 tooth, and where might I find one? Same question for drive shaft. Can either be safely repaired by welding? |
10-02-2021, 12:56 PM | #2 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
It's probably an axle key. In my hot rodding days I kept them in the glovebox at all times....-RG
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10-02-2021, 01:01 PM | #3 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
I'm thinking if the speedo is registering steady and varies with engine speed as you depress the accelerator, then something has failed behind the point where the speedo drive gear is located on the splined end of driveshaft. I'm thinking the driveshaft to pinion coupling, an axle shaft, or an axle key has failed. If it's not an axle key that sheared, then most likely that rear will need to come out.
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John "Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 10-02-2021 at 01:10 PM. |
10-02-2021, 01:06 PM | #4 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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Not Brokie! DD |
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10-02-2021, 01:30 PM | #5 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
I had the same thing and it was an axle shaft.
Jack the rear end up and see if either of the rear wheels will pull outwards. |
10-02-2021, 01:58 PM | #6 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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10-02-2021, 05:25 PM | #7 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
repaired on drive shaft that had stripped the splines in the coupler
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10-02-2021, 06:10 PM | #8 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
yes, when the splines finally let go, there is no noise, if you break an axle or driveshaft, you invariably hear the snap!
And yes, I have stripped the splines, it does and can happen!
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Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! Last edited by Brian; 10-02-2021 at 10:29 PM. |
10-02-2021, 09:13 PM | #9 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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John "Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 10-03-2021 at 04:09 PM. |
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10-03-2021, 05:43 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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"After getting home on a roll-back I popped the hubcaps and idled the engine in low gear. The shafts are locked tight to the hubs, so it is not a sheared key." He stated pretty clearly in his first post that it's NOT a sheared key! DD . |
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10-03-2021, 06:11 AM | #11 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Although it would be nice to know precisely where the problem is, it's all moot, since the rear end will have to come out and apart in any case.
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10-03-2021, 06:52 AM | #12 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
You do not have to pull the rear end to replace a axle, just the ring gear side housing.
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10-03-2021, 07:12 AM | #13 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!
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10-03-2021, 07:49 AM | #14 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
To each his own. I personally do not enjoy doing this job while lying under the car.
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10-03-2021, 08:19 AM | #15 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
X2. I don't enjoy it either!
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10-03-2021, 08:36 AM | #16 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
To be exact only the left hand housing needs to be removed. I did this job when I broke a shaft on my 41 pickup. I covered it in some videos.
Part 1: https://youtu.be/t0AfzS5OLYE Part 2: https://youtu.be/i26ZSqwFIF0 Part 3: https://youtu.be/8ToEl7O01P0 Part 4: https://youtu.be/MOVxQP0aZhg Mart. |
10-03-2021, 08:39 AM | #17 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Of course you do not need to remove the rear on an early Ford with a closed driveshaft to replace a broken axle, BUT you never know what else that failure could have damaged internally unless you pull the rear and completely dismantle it, and check everything.
Also, if the rear is original and never been apart, it's likely the seals, gaskets, bearings, etc., may need replacing.
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10-03-2021, 08:53 AM | #18 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
My bet is an axle broken and you got lucky in that the hub/wheel couldn't move outward due to the brake shoes. When you idled the engine in gear was the Ebrake on? It would take a lot of abuse to strip the splines out of the coupling but it is over 80 years old. I have never heard of a main drive gear shearing off so does the speedo still work like suggested above? If the clutch disk came apart I would think it would be noisy but maybe not. Interested to see what this is.
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10-03-2021, 08:57 AM | #19 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Agreed, it is really easy to remove the entire assy, and less painful to do it out from under the car!
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10-03-2021, 12:24 PM | #20 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
If you are going to disassemble the differential to replace an axle or perhaps the coupling, I think I would strongly consider replacing the bearings, seals and gaskets, especially if the differential is original, and be done with it. And it might be a good time to use 3.54 gears. And those gears will mean changing the turtle??!!!
Sorry to learn of the problem!!! |
10-03-2021, 12:46 PM | #21 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Delete duplicate post
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John "Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 10-03-2021 at 01:25 PM. |
10-03-2021, 12:58 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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Bill, you're talking about the difference between a three beer repair job and a complete third member rebuild. On a side note, a tall gear ratio is not on everyone's to-do list.
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10-03-2021, 01:12 PM | #23 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Quote:
I absolutely love 3.54 rear and 15/29 transmission gears in my 35 fordor.
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10-03-2021, 05:38 PM | #24 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Ford38v8: My job would probably take 24 - 12oz beers - job last longer and more satisfaction????
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10-03-2021, 05:51 PM | #25 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
let us know the outcome of the investigation, should be a case of good beer to make it interesting, how about it?
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10-04-2021, 01:52 PM | #26 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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Progress Report: It is an axle, not a drive shaft. Pulled the fill plug to see if the ring gear is turning, and yes it is. I did not have to go under with a flashlight to peek into the fill hole. When I got to the rear end, lubricant was pouring onto the garage floor from the ring gear picking it up the back side of the banjo. I hope I never have to do that test again, but if I do, I will use reverse instead of low gear. Doesn't much matter which axle, since they are both the same, but I will be pulling wheels and hubs later this week. That should tell the tale. The job will be done with the rear end under the car. First, I do not have room in the garage for the rear end. Second, I have replaced several axles that way in the distant past with good success. Mart's videos were an enormous help in refreshing my memory on the details. Thanks Mart! Third, the rear end was completely rebuilt three years ago when Joe Smith Early V8 replaced the ring and pinion with 3.25 gears (which with 284 engine are great on the highway and no problem in town). So, no need for further refurbishment. The strain and lifting is way over my limit either in or out of the car. I will enlist the services of a stout young lad to do the wrench bending, under my supervision. So, does a stock, early model year '41 have the 18 tooth axle, or the 16 tooth? No luck in finding either, so far. Any suggestions on sources? |
10-04-2021, 02:44 PM | #27 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Well, your limited to three beers!!! 3.25 gears and 286 ci is a nice combination. Best Wishes on the repair.
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10-04-2021, 02:45 PM | #28 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
.
We've had good luck getting axles and axle housing from the Early Ford Store in San Dimas, Ca. There's no telling whether Fred Wilner at Southside Obsolete (barnfind08) may have any NOS or good used. Send him a PM. Of course, remember that everybody is at Hershey this week. DD |
10-04-2021, 02:46 PM | #29 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
The tooth count changed from 18 to 16 for the 1939 model year. All else remained the same, so you may find either in your car, as they were interchangeable together with matching spider gear. When you determine which tooth count you have, you can replace that one axle only, or if you find a set of the other tooth count, you must change both axles as well as the matching spider gear.
As you have already replaced several axles in the past, perhaps your method of installation should be reviewed, as an incorrect method will surely put your axle at risk of breaking: Examine the keyway of the replacement axle at the inner end of that slot, and reject any axle that shows even the smallest of cracks at that location. With a flat file, remove any burrs that you see or feel on the axle taper. Using grinding compound on the taper, install the drum loosely, and turn by hand to seat the taper to the drum. Remove and thouroughly clean all grinding compound. Final assembly is dry, do not use any oil or grease of any sort. Tighten the axle nut to 200 ft lbs., which is comparable to using a breaker bar with a cheater, and standing on the cheater. It needs to be as tight as possible. Cotter key in the hole and you're done.
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10-04-2021, 02:49 PM | #30 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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Bill, he's got a helper, so he'll need a sixpack.
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10-04-2021, 02:53 PM | #31 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
If his helper is anything like mine, better get a couple of cases.
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10-04-2021, 03:02 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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10-04-2021, 04:14 PM | #33 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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10-04-2021, 04:49 PM | #34 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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Some bargains on parts, but not on cars or signs.
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10-04-2021, 06:01 PM | #35 | |
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Yup, I'd say that they have a few axles to choose from. These guys are: All Ford Parts 1600 Dell Ave, Suite A Campbell , CA , 95008 Give us a Call Toll-Free 800-532-1932 Local & Cell: 408-378-1935 |
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10-04-2021, 07:31 PM | #36 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
One detail I forgot to mention while inspecting the replacement axle: The keyway should be sharp, no roll-overs on the edges. The key itself should always be a new key of the proper length and end taper. This is a detail that under correct conditions, should never be required to drive the drum, just a redundant safety measure. The fact that most axle failures do occur at the keyway shows that in those cases, the drums had not been installed correctly.
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10-09-2021, 11:21 AM | #37 | |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
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10-09-2021, 01:14 PM | #38 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Axle is on the way from All Ford. Expensive, but good to work with.
Looking for a local mechanic to do the rolling-around-on-the-floor part. More after the job gets under way. |
10-10-2021, 07:00 AM | #39 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
Thank you, I think many of us here would benefit from seeing detailed pictures of exactly what failed, as well as knowing what actually caused this failure.
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John "Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 10-10-2021 at 07:45 AM. |
10-19-2021, 11:38 AM | #40 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
I stripped a 35 Ute rear axle last year and was surprised to see a very old welded axle. It had lasted a long time but I obviously didn’t reuse it again!
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10-19-2021, 01:33 PM | #41 |
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Re: Which Shaft is Broken
There once was a blacksmith/welder/machinist in neighboring town from where I grew up who welded axle shafts. Course that was before the interweb experts said it couldn't be done. He welded a lot of Coop tractor shafts.
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