A or B engine?

[Joey1930]

Hey There,

So my engine is shot, low compression on 2 cilinders and babbit is coming lose.
Now I have 2 options that are available to me at the moment:

1 - I've found a model B engine. I can buy it for €1500 but I do not know the state of the crankshaft bearings. But I like the idea of the improved oil system.
If I go and see the engine I am allowed to take the head of.

2 - A rebuild A engine with insert bearings. I found an oldtimer (80+ yo) that does engines the way they used to do it. He does babbit and inserts so I have a choice. Price will be around €4750.

So besides the price difference I want to know what would be best future wise. I don't care that much about originality but just want a good running engine.

The other thing is is that I like to push the throttle sometimes as I attend beach races and oval tracks.

Like to hear what your advices are.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Joey, let me start by welcoming you to Fordbarn since this is your first posting.

Your questions are more akin to asking us whether we feel it would be best for you to buy a red automobile or a green one. As an engine rebuilder, I can give you real-world advice that will convince you to go with whichever engine you wanted to choose, -so YOU first must tell which engine you prefer. On the counter, I can give you solid advice against whatever engine you are wanting to go with. Therefore, since none of us know your budget, -nor do we know the condition of your present engine, or anything about this Model-B engine, ...then any advice we give you is strictly opinion and likely not the best advice for you.

So, with the above said, I am going to add one more to your decision list. For your application where you are somewhat wanting to really work the engine, have you considered the new Burtz engine? From my vantage point, this is likely the best option for you.

As for the Model-B engine, while there used to be several things that made it an upgrade over the Model-A engine, I don't necessarily see the Model-B engine a benefit in the 21st century. This Model-B engine you are considering buying is strictly a pig-in-a-poke since you know nothing about it. My advice is buy it with the assumption that you must fully rebuild it and you will need to do crack repair.

[nkaminar]

Ask Terry Burtz how much it would cost to ship an engine kit to you. In my opinion that would be your best choice.

[Synchro909]

You are about to be told that the B engine is well known for cracks in the block so be careful. If you can arrange it, have it crack tested before you do anything. I agree that the lubrication system fore the main bearings is much better in the B engine but the same for the rods. They are less troublesome than the main bearings in an A engine.
If you opt for a rebuilt A engine, I recommend adding counterweights to the crank shaft and using inserted bearings. A harmonic balancer on the front of the crankshaft will also help extend the life of the engine, as will pressure feeding oil tot he middle main bearing.
Depending on your bank balance, there is a third option. Have you considered one of the new Burtz engines? They are an even greater improvement on the B engine than the B is on the A engine. You can push the throttle as much as you like without fear and the total cost is comparable to rebuilding an A engine to original specs.

[Synchro909]

It seems three of us were typing at the same time. I see similarities in the advice each of us has given.

[CT Jack]

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You are indicating as a starting point an initial investment of $6300 (equivalent euros) which will increase substantially before completion of the engine rebuild cycle. I highly recommend you consider buying a Burtz engine as it will eliminate the many mechanical, performance, and limited life expectancy issues that occur with original A or B engines. However, if you are a purist, perform your own maintenance and repair work, and plan on doing a limited amount of driving then going with an original A or B rebuild makes sense.

[Bob C]

Not sure where you are located but here is a link to Burtz distributor in Europe.
https://www.afordengines.com/epages/...ucts/burtz_001

[Jim Brierley]

I've raced B engines for years, mostly with OHV heads on them. The B has better oiling, but the main thing is the crank is stronger, the downside is they need to be crack checked before putting money into them. I too recommend the Burtz engine, and they are no more expensive than having an A/B engine completely rebuild, and you have everything new, not 90 years old. You might also want to buy my book on bangers. [email protected]

[jeepguy1948]

I bought the book and read it at least 4 times. Let me tell you; we are in the presence of Banger Royalty!

[Gene F]

Joey, since we don't know where you are....

A couple years ago I went through the fresh engine thing. What a mess. I have over $5,500 in my engine. If you want to drive your car (and I sure do) buy the Burtz. You will end up with much less problems now, and over the life of your car. Price wise, you might even save yourself a few bucks overall. At the time of my engine overhaul the Burtz was not quite ready for sale yet.

Besides, your car will be worth more as a driver with reliability.

I speak from experience of hard knocks.

[J Franklin]

Welcome to the barn! The fourth option nobody mentioned is having your original block rebuilt. Depending on what it may need and your intended usage it might be a good option.

[Gold Digger]

I went with the new Burtz engine and would never again rebuild an orginal engine. Have several thousand miles on it now and it runs better every time I drive it. I might consider a ring and valve job on an old engine in something I don't tour with if it still had good Babbitt .

[nkaminar]

Joey, Where are you located? Welcome to the Barn. Please tell us a little bit about your car and your experience in the Model A world.

[Joey1930]

Thank you all for your replies.
Indeed it doesn't say where I'm from. I am from the Netherlands were we have a burtz dealer.
I'll give them a call but I think I remember they are asking about 12k for a build motor.
What I understand is that the B engine is prone to crack and maybe not such a improvement as I thought.
I'll have a look into the Burtz engine but I am afraid this will be above my budget (around 5k)

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Joey1930

Thank you all for your replies.
Indeed it doesn't say where I'm from. I am from the Netherlands were we have a burtz dealer.
I'll give them a call but I think I remember they are asking about 12k for a build motor.
What I understand is that the B engine is prone to crack and maybe not such a improvement as I thought.
I'll have a look into the Burtz engine but I am afraid this will be above my budget (around 5k)

Joey - when you talk to the Burtz dealer make sure you are talking about comparable engines. The Burtz build uses a lot of parts from the old engine. If your dealer is supplying these parts with the build instead of taking them from your old engine (which would be the case in a rebuild) then you are paying for new/recycled parts you may not need.

[Synchro909]

Jay Jay is right. If you use your current engine as a donor engine, everything except block, crank shaft and con rods are interchangeable with the Burtz engine. If your current engine is bone stock (40 hp) and you use just those parts, the new one will also be 40 horsepower (30 Kw).
For most of us who are looking for more power, the advantage of the Burtz is its ability to develop much more power (with more efficient accessories) and hold together and give a longer life while doing it.
The sky is the limit for what you can do with one of those engines.

[nkaminar]

Also, if you have good mechanical skills you can build the engine yourself. The instructions (on the site) are very complete and Terry Burtz is available to ask him questions. Plus there are many people on the Barn who have built the engines so that is another source of information and advice.

[stickshift]

Originally Posted by Joey1930

Hey There,

So my engine is shot, low compression on 2 cilinders and babbit is coming lose.
Now I have 2 options that are available to me at the moment:

1 - I've found a model B engine. I can buy it for €1500 but I do not know the state of the crankshaft bearings. But I like the idea of the improved oil system.
If I go and see the engine I am allowed to take the head of.

2 - A rebuild A engine with insert bearings. I found an oldtimer (80+ yo) that does engines the way they used to do it. He does babbit and inserts so I have a choice. Price will be around €4750.

So besides the price difference I want to know what would be best future wise. I don't care that much about originality but just want a good running engine.

The other thing is is that I like to push the throttle sometimes as I attend beach races and oval tracks.

Like to hear what your advices are.

Joey, take your time and make an informed decision. If you decide your funds are limited, the "B" engine could be a viable option. If you are allowed to pull the head and inspect the valves, see if you can pull the oil pan and wiggle the piston rods for too much wear and look closely at the main bearings. It could be a "Diamond B" that allegedly has hardened exhaust valve seats. Some also have balanced crankshafts. These are aftermarket engines licensed by Ford for industrial applications. I found that my '31 truck has one and it's a workhorse. Plenty of people on this forum have B engines and no issue with cracking. Also "B" engines are 50 horsepower stock, instead of 40 horsepower like an "A". I'm not sure if you could feel the difference because I never really drove an A engine in my truck. The diamond is near the timing gear cover on the valve side of the engine. Whichever way you go, enjoy your A.

[JRLampl]

Originally Posted by Joey1930

Thank you all for your replies.
Indeed it doesn't say where I'm from. I am from the Netherlands were we have a burtz dealer.
I'll give them a call but I think I remember they are asking about 12k for a build motor.
What I understand is that the B engine is prone to crack and maybe not such a improvement as I thought.
I'll have a look into the Burtz engine but I am afraid this will be above my budget (around 5k)

Can you buy just the block kit and build it yourself?

[Bruce of MN]

See instructions here https://www.modelaengine.com/guides. to see what is involved.