An Introduction and a First Early Ford

[RyanAK]

Hey, Gang. Glad to finally have a reason to make my way over to the Barn. I've been fooling with older vehicles for a long while, and gave up my last late model nearly 4 years ago now. I currently daily drive a '78 Suburban and a '63 Olds Cutlass. But now we're starting in on something a bit different, and I think the community here will be of invaluable help.

I'm 43, married to a wonderful woman, have young children, and a demanding career. We make home in rural Central Pennsylvania. My little boy, Spencer, is seven, and on the Spectrum. Among his passions, he's hot for old cars. Great!

Well, a couple years back, he discovered through some magazines and the wonder of YouTube that a car could be built essentially from scratch. So after years of asking, Dad finally formulated a plan. A couple weeks back, I brought home a running Model A chassis in the dark of the night...



The next day, Spencer and six-year-old Nora discovered our project, and our journey has begun.





The plan is for a basic, prewar supe job. Stripped down, mildly hopped up banger, and as correct as we can make it. Spence has a very mechanical mind, and what better to show those principals than starting with an A chassis? I'll fill everyone in on just what we're starting with in the next few posts, but this feels very achievable. There's lots I don't know yet, so hopefully we'll get a big assist from the Barn.

Happy to be here, folks.

Ryan

[RyanAK]

We have:

A running A 4 cyl that sounds strong, a transmission that shifts. 19" wheels with rotten rubber that at least hold air. Closed car cowl. Steering and springs. Frame is straight and pretty nice. Full wishbones.

A previous owner started down the path of juice brakes and tube shocks, so we don't have any of the bits for mechanicals and no shocks.

'46-'48 juice brakes, not plumbed and no master.

A nice closed car cowl that has a firewall being pieced back in. But that's already been 'traded' off.

Nice gauge cluster.

[RyanAK]

And... it runs.

https://youtube.com/shorts/STf9_XZrwqY?feature=share

[65f100]

awsome - have fun

[katy]

Nice wiring job!

[Terry, NJ]

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Hey Ryan! Welcome to the Barn! You've come to the right place! This is probably the greatest concentration of mod A knowledge, skills, and experience anywhere in the world. I Didn't see if you mentioned the year but from the radiator and the cowl, I'd say it was a 1928 or 29. But it looks like it has 30-31 wheels (They're better anyhow) It looks like someone started a restoration but got tired and quit. Best Of Luck with it!
Terry

[RyanAK]

Wiring - That’s already gone and being replaced with a stock harness. Some PO’s work.

[RyanAK]

Thanks, Terry. I spend time over on the HAMB but this place seems to have all the early Ford knowledge I really need. This car will be a ‘28/‘29 Phaeton, and there’s so many little things that are specific to that body that I’m more likely to get here. And because I’d like to stay prewar with the build, the restoration folks will be a huge help.

[nkaminar]

Looks like a great start. I love Spencer's expression behind the steering wheel.

[rfitzpatrick]

The photo's of the expression on the children: Priceless

[RyanAK]

Yeah... we're still in the "tear it down and collect parts" phase, but we're having a great time. When we can. I'm currently working close to 90 hours a week. That'll curtail to 60 in November, but still... Hope to have a driver by April or so.

Should also probably point out that there isn't a garage involved in this. We're strictly shade tree here in Union County.

But I've become so enamored with the Model A mechanicals that I'm likely going to sell the '63 Olds to finance an A Tudor as a daily driver. Between the '78 Suburban and a '28/'29 Tudor (plus Momma's 'reasonable' late model...) I think we'll be well served.

Deep end, eh?

[Terry, NJ]

Upon closer examination it seems you may have a 28-29 chassis with many 30-31 parts on it, or it's a 30-31 chassis with a 28-29 cowl and radiator , It's got a 30-31 Transmission top and steering box. The Frame number is under the left side of the chassis. I would suggest making rubbings of it (more than one) and save them with the rest of your paperwork. Have Fun!!
Terry

[Stretch Cab]

When I was a kid we always had a shed with several Model A's and other models that I traveled many an imagination mile in. Then started working some on them and was bitten with the old car bug from an early age. Give your kids as much freedom as you can with the car and enjoy!

[RyanAK]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Upon closer examination it seems you may have a 28-29 chassis with many 30-31 parts on it, or it's a 30-31 chassis with a 28-29 cowl and radiator , It's got a 30-31 Transmission top and steering box. The Frame number is under the left side of the chassis. I would suggest making rubbings of it (more than one) and save them with the rest of your paperwork. Have Fun!!
Terry

Yeah, definitely a hodgepodge. I'm ok with that. The closed car cowl that's on there now won't be staying as the Phaeton body that I've tracked down is complete with cowl and firewall. Where exactly is the frame number??

Originally Posted by Stretch Cab

When I was a kid we always had a shed with several Model A's and other models that I traveled many an imagination mile in. Then started working some on them and was bitten with the old car bug from an early age. Give your kids as much freedom as you can with the car and enjoy!

Kids are going to be completely involved, up to and including brush painting the car (which I'll follow along and "fix" when they aren't looking ...)

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by RyanAK

Yeah, definitely a hodgepodge. I'm ok with that. The closed car cowl that's on there now won't be staying as the Phaeton body that I've tracked down is complete with cowl and firewall. Where exactly is the frame numbers

The numbers are just under the cowl about next to where your left foot would rest when you're driving. The number is preceded by an A and a star and the stamping is poor. It should read between 1 and 4.8 million. Pa requires a rubbing in certain cases and it's not a bad thing to have when the time comes to sell. Some states don't even require a title on old cars and some states are a real pain in the butt about it. Gotta dot every I and cross every T! Illinois For one. My advice is to get the rubbings while they're easy and put them where you can retrieve them. Yes you'll have to take the cowl off. But it's not bad now! Attach the body and all the wiring, etc and it gets a lot harder.
Terry

[RyanAK]

Thanks, Terry. The cowl is coming off tomorrow or Sunday, so I'll be able to get the rubbing then. Also, Spence and I are putting the rebuilt water pump on and getting back to the wiring. Then a trip to a special barn. Spence is going to get to see the Gabby Garrison T. (If you know... you know.)

Phaeton body hopefully sometime in November. That will likely sit while I work through brakes, springs, and shocks (OH MY HOLY COW GOODNESS!!! Shock prices!!!) through the winter.

Have I mentioned that I'm working 70-85 hours a week and we don't have a garage?

[Terry, NJ]

Yeah Ryan, you mentioned it! Back to the car. Shocks are brutal! But there's things you can do. But here's the worst part, Very few are rebuildable. Most of us have been down that road and it's very frustrating. The best answer is to run friction shocks, they're out there. You have to look around, but they're there some where. Next is (foreign) English, shocks. MG I think. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, But I don't believe you can run later Ford shocks on a model A. Solution #4 is Pay a guy named Bill Stipe $1000 for four shocks from his next run and wait, and wait, and wait, knowing that you will be getting then finest shocks money can buy. Yes Ryan, Ford, model A shocks are troublesome. Theres a couple of other answers too, like the guy on Texas who makes a conversion to tube shocks. Manypeople say this is the best. Good Luck!
Terry

[RyanAK]

I have a set of Delco Lovejoy shocks... looks like one pair MAY work as fronts. More research needed... The pair that looks like winners for the front are marked R-1 and R-3. Hmmm...

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by RyanAK

I have a set of Delco Lovejoy shocks... looks like one pair MAY work as fronts. More research needed... The pair that looks like winners for the front are marked R-1 and R-3. Hmmm...

That's another thing, Getting the sides right! I think ? this is correct. Left front can also go Right rear. And Right front goes to left rear. It sound simple but it can be confusing at times.
Next matter to chew open is the shock arms. Again, I can't be sure which is correct, longer ones in rear or front. If you ever buy any shocks with arms on them, They're usually correct to the position that they were on in the last car they were. I believe it's short arms to the front and longer arms to the rear. But don't quote me on this. Arms are usually about $7/8 apiece at swap meets.

Next thing, Don't buy any shocks that are loose and rattle, They can't be rebuilt. If you do try to rebuild a set, and it doesn't work out, Model A s run pretty good with no shocks, Not Great! Buy pretty good. Because of the high replacement costs. there are many A s out there running with no shocks, but I don't recommend it as a long time solution.
Terry

[RyanAK]

Rears are going to need to wait for a bit…

[Terry, NJ]

Uh Oh! That is a later backing plate from a 1939 to 42? I think. You've got Hydraulic brakes! For all that's worth! Some guys love em. Some don't! Granted they're a larger diameter and wider shoe. But they seem to bind up when left alone for a while. and don't use a single master cylinder. Call Speedway Motors and get their catalog. They have a lot restoration, and hot rodding parts that you may consider using. I know they had a Chev two port (2cyl) master Cylinder rebuilt for $35 they were selling. Call them at 1-800-979-0122.
Terry

[RyanAK]

I thought I mentioned this… previous owner was in the process of putting ‘46-‘48 juice brakes and tube shocks on this. I’m rebuilding ALL mechanical brakes. The ONLY Model A brake components remaining on the chassis are the pedal and the E-brake crossshaft. Luckily, I have collected components and I’m starting to sort things out. Ya just don’t realize how many bits and bobs there are to the brakes until you start with… nothing. Ha.

No juice brakes on this car. Maybe on the Tudor daily driver that has yet to be purchased. Gotta sell the ‘63 Cutlass before that happens though…

[Hotrodfil]

Morning Ryan!

[RyanAK]

Originally Posted by Hotrodfil

Morning Ryan!

Hello, friend!

[RyanAK]

Today I had my “fatigue” day, and Spencer and I dove into our projects. I didn’t get as far as I had hoped… I need to remember that things take a bit longer when working with an apprentice. But we did get the rebuilt water pump in and the cracked water neck replaced with an original part. Spencer does NOT like the smell or the feel of Kroil on his hands. Dad has made note.



Not too bad inside. This is my first look of any sort inside the engine.



In other news, a friend from the HAMB put eyes on the Phaeton body I was making a deal for. Looks like we’re still looking for a 4-seat open car body for Spencer’s soup job, folks.

[RyanAK]

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So while we're still searching for a body and I'm sorting through brake parts that I've sourced through friends (you don't know how many bits and bobs there are until you start with zero brakes on a chassis...), and laying out the new wiring harness... I've been thinking on what we want out of the motor. Something just a step or two up from stock. So, I have my thoughts, what are some of your thoughts?

[katy]

I hope you checked/set the end play on the water pump.

[RyanAK]

There's (amazingly) almost no wear on the head casting where the water pump shaft rides. Maybe 1/64". Therefore almost zero endplay in the pump. I was prepared with a shaft collar if needed, but thanks for the check! I'll need those as I go through this and I'm sure I'll overlook something.

R

[1930artdeco]

Welcome and I may have missed it, but check that fan VERY carefully. They have tendency to crack and come apart. Get one of the new aluminum fans.

Mike

[Terry, NJ]

Yes! Original fans (two blade) are very dangerous. Four blade, not so much. But I still worry. The story with the two blades is that Henry made some errors here and there and the Model A two blade fan is one of them.. The blades are two pieces laminated together and as with most laminations, moisture gets between them and they rust from the inside out. You never see it. But you sure see it when the ole banger revs up and tosses a blade out through your hood. Really, they can be dangerous as heck! As Mike says, get a new aluminum ASAP. Right now, The only other really dangerous part on the car is the rear spring. These also are deadly. Do Not Attempt to Take one Off Without a Springspreader
Somewhere in the history of the model A, someone's been killed by this part! I don't know it for a fact, but I'm sure of it! I made a spring spreader out of 3/4 " pipe and ready rod. It twisted that pipe and 3/4 - 10 threaded rod and and sent a piece past my right leg at warp speed , had it hit me, I'd still be limping if I was lucky enough to save the leg. The best parts is, I was warned, but the old "How much can it be?" prevailed. To change the subject, There will be a swap meet in Rieglesville (Bucks Co) Nov 6,about the last for the year. Don't know how far is Mifflinburg, but I like this show. Plenty of people, but not crowded, just a friendly bunch of car lovers. Hope to see you and Spencer!
Terry

[RyanAK]

I’m running a 4-blade fan at the moment, and I’ve gone over it. Seems good. But I take what you say to heart. I recently had an opportunity to advise a young man in the parts store against a flex fan for his truck.

I’m a bit away from taking the rear spring out, but I absolutely won’t do it without the right tool and everything wrapped in chain. I’ve successfully avoided even a close call due to suspension components and stored energy thus far on my old stuff. Is one of the suppliers’ spreaders considered better than the others?

Rieglesville is only about two hours from home. This project is likely going to 7 days for the duration, so it’s tough to say if I’ll have that day off.

[Terry, NJ]

I Rarely buy what I can make. So a friend of mine was building a race car and had some scrap chrome-moly tubing he would have eventually junked. It was 1 1/4" I.D. and from that I fabricated a spring spreader that I have used successfully several times.
Terry

[RyanAK]

I CAN make... but... my time is short these days with the work schedule.

[RyanAK]

I just about have my brake situation sorted - Model A rears with new cast drums, 32 fronts. Ted's Floaters all around. Need to order Ted's kit, "consumables" like springs, grease seals, etc. I'm short the e-brake handle and ALL rods. Getting close.

I've been thinking more and more on what we want out of the motor. Something just a step or two up from stock. So, I have my thoughts, what are some of your thoughts? Anyone run dual UPdrafts?

[Terry, NJ]

Better fix up the compression first. Next bore your A manifold to B specs and put a B carb on it. About the CR ratio, 4.2 is pretty lame. You can cut the stock head down about 1/8" (.125) Or you can get a Police Head, or you can get a mod. B head with a 3 bolt water pump,(about $ 125) or you can get a new Snyder's head 5.5 to 6 CR for $325 plus. There are some cam grinders (Jim Breirly in this group is one) who can fix you up with an improved cam. There are others Bill Stipe is another. Multi Carb. and Downdraft manifolds are available . Then there's lightening the flywheel and other things you candors to keep up with traffic. But first get it running and see what you're dealing with.
Terry

[RyanAK]

I’ll certainly get everything running well stock, first. Promise.

I have a B dizzy sitting on the bench, waiting patiently.

Compression, certainly. I’ve had a couple thoughts on that. I have a buddy with a Police head that could be had, and I like the idea of staying with vintage parts. Stock heads are easy enough to come by for short money, and taking .125” is straightforward enough… does that give reliable results? I like the DIY approach to that. Also feel ok trying my hand at porting on a stock head when the time comes for something like that. Likely the most reasonable and achievable approach is a Snyder’s 6:1. Known results and all that.

Interesting to note: my buddy’s T gow job has a stock head but bumped compression from domed pistons. Come to think of it… that’s how Buick put out different compression versions of the 215 V8 too. Hmmm….

I don’t think I’m quite ready to go “inside” for cams and flywheels and such just yet. Those things will likely wait until I build up an engine from a block, rather that modify something that seems good but is basically unknown.

Intake and carb(s) are sort of where most of my daydreaming is spent. I’m sure I’m not alone there. Stock first. Boring out the intake to B spec is interesting! I had been told to look for a B carb and manifold, but this is the first mention of modifying the A intake to B bore. I like it.

Most often I hear “Go downdraft and put a Stromberg on it for easy gains” quickly followed by “you’ll probably need a fuel pump” and then “and definitely a fuel pressure regulator.” Ha. I actually like the idea of dual updrafts if going a step above a B carb and intake. I always wonder what real life difference there is between dual updrafts and a single 97 on the same mild 6:1 Model A banger…

[Terry, NJ]

A "B" dist. can be good, BUT it's very hard to time with an "A"cam cover I believe the B dist. is 19 degrees off the A dist. It gets confusing!

Boring out an A manifold to B specs is fairly easy but you need a Bridgeport or a healthy drill press and a large angle plate. It involves boring the long 4 "runner with a 1.250 drill. Stock A manifold is a cast finish, 1.125. Then polish it. I used to do it and all my cars have bored mainfolds. Mod. A s starve for fuel and this mod helps a little. Your gain is about 4 hp. Doesn't sound like much, but 4 hp on a 40 hp engine is ten percent. It's relatively cheap mod. You should be able to scrounge a B carb for about $30-40.
Terry

[RyanAK]

What's a Bridgeport running these days?? Dremel with a flex drive? Or... a B intake?

[RyanAK]

And then...


…then there were two. Well… 1.5? Almost one? I don’t know. There’s a whole car in here somewhere…

[woofa.express]

Great posting Ryan. Keep it going. gary

[RyanAK]

Are there any external markings on the rear differential to indicate gearing on an A?

[Terry, NJ]

No! The stock ratio is 3.78, not particularly great! But adequate! In time and as your engine power increases, you may want to go to a 3.54, or if you're really feeling strong (Engine wise) a 3.22 (3.25). But, I've done two of them and this job is not for someone who is not at least somewhat familiar with the way gears are fitted. It is time consuming, arbitrary, and a general PITA. (And that's its good side!) One of the most complex jobs you can do on a model A. No daydreaming on this job! Cost is about $700. Gear sets alone are about $465,. The gaskets are also shims and and the torque can have a lot of effects on bearing loads. However, I think Henry should have made the 3.54 an option. Much improvement! Getting back to fans, the 4 blade is not a lamination, The two blade is.
What ever possessed Henry to laminate two pieces to make one, I don't know? Extra work with no perceptical gain.
Terry