Fan catastrophe avoided

[Bob Johnson]

This fan was loose on the water pump shaft and was making lots of noise.

We removed the fan to figure out what was causing the noise and that prevented a disaster.


Bob

[Rob Doe]

Good catch.

[nkaminar]

Scotty says: "She is going to blow, Captain."

[Bob Bidonde]

After all of the bad press given to the dangerous consequences of running an original fan, occurrences continue to popup. I hope the diehards who see this post will do the right thing and change to a new reproduction aluminum fan, or the plastic multi-blade fans available from dealers. I also hope the National Judging Standards Committee will wake-up and mandate the use of the aluminum 2-blade reproduction fan for fine point judging.

[mleder]

100% agree with Bob Bidonde and National judging should allow for an unmounted fan of original manufacture to complete the desire for those to get maximum points. Folks, it just plain DUMB to run the original fan

[rotorwrench]

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Most high point original cars have to either be prepped for a show or they have to remain with minimal usage due to original parts that are no longer reproduced in their original form. High points owners like it this way for a reason. To change the rules is to take a measure of originality away from the hobby. Cost of restoration on a high points car can add another digit to the price of said restoration.

For myself, I don't worry about that much originality for I like to operate and enjoy the cars without worry of damaging the parts that are now getting into the unobtainium category. I don't have the funds or patients to get that obsessive over my own hobby interests. Those that do can have at it. After all, it is a free country at least for now.

[JimK1930A]

I agree with Bob Bidonde!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

After all of the bad press given to the dangerous consequences of running an original fan, occurrences continue to popup. I hope the diehards who see this post will do the right thing and change to a new reproduction aluminum fan, or the plastic multi-blade fans available from dealers. I also hope the National Judging Standards Committee will wake-up and mandate the use of the aluminum 2-blade reproduction fan for fine point judging.

Originally Posted by mleder

100% agree with Bob Bidonde and National judging should allow for an unmounted fan of original manufacture to complete the desire for those to get maximum points. Folks, it just plain DUMB to run the original fan

Total BS!! That comment makes about as much sense as saying 'The JSC needs to let ppl use auxiliary gas tanks because most original tanks have rust in them.' The issue is most restorers choose to overlook restoring an original fan just like many do gas tanks. If you tell people you have a Restored Model-A, then restore ALL of the car ...and quit blaming your oversight on original component failures.

I know some people will chime in to say that a fan is unreliable however the facts are that a fan can be restored by drilling one side of each blade and then pickling with acid to kill any remaining rust between/inside the blades. Once the rust particles are removed, the holes can be welded closed. Then the entire fan needs to be crack-checked with a wet-mag machine (Magnaflux), and any stress-cracks found can be Vee-ed and then TIG welded. Once the repairs have been made, the entire unit needs to be dynamically balanced so that harmonic vibrations do not cause future cracking. It is THAT simple on making an original fan reliable.

The irony is many, MANY of these fans went for 50 years and thousands of miles without failures. Even when I was a teenager and before, almost all Model-As on tours used a two-blade fan. Only on rare occasion did we see a failure. We knew they could break, so we just knew to not stand in the line of fire if one broke. Many of these fans broke because they were used to rotate the engine when setting the timing.

[Joe K]

Then the question becomes is it more expensive to restore an original fan - or simply "re-create" one as they were originally made?

Granted nobody yet is reproducing a fan as they were made originally.

And nobody yet is making brake drums as they were originally (i.e. pressed steel)

Should an original cast iron brake drum (late 1931) be graded higher than a Mel Gross drum? What of that drum (either one) installed on an AR Model A?

Sorry. I'm asking questions faster than there are answers - and SOME of those questions HAVE been answered.

I think that's why a committee get the big bucks.

Now I'm being funny.

Joe K

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Then the question becomes is it more expensive to restore an original fan - or simply "re-create" one as they were originally made?

Granted nobody yet is reproducing a fan as they were made originally.

And nobody yet is making brake drums as they were originally (i.e. pressed steel)

Should an original cast iron brake drum (late 1931) be graded higher than a Mel Gross drum? What of that drum (either one) installed on an AR Model A?

Sorry. I'm asking questions faster than there are answers - and SOME of those questions HAVE been answered.

I think that's why a committee get the big bucks.

Now I'm being funny.

Joe K

No, those are good questions Joe.

Restoration vs. replacing has its place depending on the skill-level of the Restorer. As far as a nice restoration, there is not anything wrong with using a reproduction aluminum fan because it is cheaper. Using a DeLuxe Roadster as an example, the original fabric inside of a DeLuxe Roadster was leather however in an effort to save money, many have been 'restored' substituting vinyl. Using the excuse of monetary costs during an accurate restoration should never be a valid reason IMHO.

As far as using one of the Gross drums in lieu of an original drum during F/P adjudication, I can spot the difference between the two, -especially the front drums. When the comparison on the E28, and the VE28 drums vs. a reproduction cast iron drum, it really boils down to how the judge wants to score the deduction. Although it is an 'unwritten protocol' thought, the mindset has generally been that a reproduction part that does not aesthetically look exactly like the original component receives a 50% point deduction whereas an incorrect original part receives less of a deduction. Now when using your analogy, it probably would become messier since the E28 & VE28 lug-bolt pattern is different than the OE cast-iron drum along with the parking brake.

The JS Committee's perspective on fans (-at least as I understand them) is they are to show no favoritism towards accepting reproduction components in lieu of original components, -even when the restoration of that component is difficult to find or to restore.

Using the OE fan as an example, while the restoration process for a two-blade fan may be difficult for the average Restorer, the task of restoration itself is doable. Therefore people's opinions about the JSC changing what is acceptable really is not very valid when all of the facts are known.

BTW, of the Mandatory Requirements to enter into F/P Judging only states that it must have an original-style two blade fan, ...which the Snyders reproduction aluminum two blade fan meets that requirement. Because that fan can be distinguished from an original two blade fan, then it will receive a point deduction in Area 3. If someone showing in F/P is adamant about using a reproduction two-blade fan, then they are welcome to use one and they just realize they will receive a slight point deduction. Because that deduction is so minor, it is possible for a vehicle to win the Henry Award while having a reproduction fan installed.

[stickshift]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I know some people will chime in to say that a fan is unreliable however the facts are that a fan can be restored by drilling one side of each blade and then pickling with acid to kill any remaining rust between/inside the blades. Once the rust particles are removed, the holes can be welded closed. Then the entire fan needs to be crack-checked with a wet-mag machine (Magnaflux), and any stress-cracks found can be Vee-ed and then TIG welded. Once the repairs have been made, the entire unit needs to be dynamically balanced so that harmonic vibrations do not cause future cracking. It is THAT simple on making an original fan reliable.

Sounds simple to you, but not something the average Joe can do. And what certainty would someone have that it was really done correctly if we trust someone else to do the job? My original fan looked fine until I pulled it off to replace it and I saw a visible crack that would have failed eventually. My $59 dollar investment for a Snyders fan gives me peace of mind. Much cheaper than a new radiator or hood repair. I'm just glad I was warned about the dangers. I will never show my truck, so maybe a more serious enthusiast would have a different oppinion.

[Joe K]

I've never been Model A judged, so all I have to go on is "reports."

Reports are that cast iron brake drums are "overlooked" in judging - in the interests of safety.

This holds back originality - but it aids survival of both the cars AND the owners - hence the rationale.

My other hobby other than Model A is stationary steam engines. I have been a long time volunteer at New England Wireless & Steam Museum. This in addition to a life's career as a licensed 1st Class Steam Operating engineer. So needless to say I have a special insight into the safety requirements for a Code Steam Boiler and the possibility of a developed danger.

NEWSM jumps through hoops each year to assure they have an inspected, insured, and state (RI) assured boiler. It's a sizable expense for the museum - and has resulted in "scrapping" and replacing a boiler obviously beyond its normal life with better. The museum relies on "experts" to maintain their personal own and the public safety.

Some are not nearly so expert. The case of the Traction Engine (steam) that exploded in Medina, OH in 2001 comes to mind. Parts of that boiler were worn to less than 1/10th inch thickness - less than 1/4 the original thickness. It is a wonder that the boiler even survived as long as it did. 5 dead. https://www.farmcollector.com/steam-...y-fairgrounds/

We, any of us, in our Model As could be Medina engine owner Cliff Kovacic who was operating/owning beyond his skill/knowledge level.

And there are failures of more qualified boilers. An example related to my own career involves three Power Plant Staff who were killed in 2008 at Salem Harbor Station while waiting for the elevator: as they stood there the boiler header immediately over their heads ripped loose flooding them with superheated water. They were dead in milliseconds.

Like the boiler at NEWSM, the Salem Harbor boiler had previously met ALL the state and insurance inspections and licensing requirements. Ultimately the explosion was determined to be the fault of the then Station Chief Engineer - who was young - and apparently had "lost" knowledge of this particular boiler's intricacies and proper long term care. Another (hidden) cost of reductions in plant staff and generation competition? And this young engineer now lives his life knowing his indirect responsibility? https://www.salemnews.com/archives/s...8c19f01ad.html

The engineer's soliloquy: Everything has a life. This life might be extended even indefinitely if cost is removed as an object. The Model A judging may be close to requiring this as a standard. But - even when you're done, has every cost been spent to augment safety?

This is not to critique Brent - what you describe to "recover" a fan seems possible to do - but is it truly practicable? And will it provide positive assurance against failure?

So we look at these automobile components and make a decision as we go along. This is good and doesn't need replacement, this can be upgraded/fixed, this can be evaluated and repairs made. When we're done we hope to have a car that is at least equal to the original Ford production, and if it's better, we'll take that too?

I'm glad the committee is adopting a position for original fans similar to brake drums, if indeed that is the case.

Joe K

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by stickshift

Sounds simple to you, but not something the average Joe can do. And what certainty would someone have that it was really done correctly if we trust someone else to do the job? My original fan looked fine until I pulled it off to replace it and I saw a visible crack that would have failed eventually. My $59 dollar investment for a Snyders fan gives me peace of mind. Much cheaper than a new radiator or hood repair. I'm just glad I was warned about the dangers. I will never show my truck, so maybe a more serious enthusiast would have a different oppinion.

There are a lot of tasks that should be done when someone is restoring a Model-A vehicle, -however, just because they are not simple for a Restorer should not mean these tasks should be overlooked. As for "showing" your truck, my comments were never intended to guide you. My comments were guided to those who were offering incorrect information here about how the JS Committees should change the Restoration Guidelines & Judging Standards book to allow aftermarket cooling fans during competition because they are unsafe.

[JayJay]

To add perhaps a bit of humor (apologies to you folks in the upper midwest) - the 49ers won last weekend, thereby avoiding a "fan catastrophe".

All kidding aside, this has been a great discussion. I really appreciate Brent's and others perspectives on what it takes to have a truly fine points car. I will never be there for the simple reason that I enjoy driving mine. I strive for "correct" when feasible, but for safety and reliability I often deviate. After all, we have learned some valuable lessons in the last 90 years, and I would say that brake drums are perhaps the best lesson we have learned. I have experienced brake fade on steel drums coming down a hill in San Francisco and it's not pretty.

[mass A man]

One can only imagine how big the Ford Model A "service bulletins" book would be if Ford kept it going for 90 years! The things we all have learned or even brought to light for others on this website is truly invaluable and some of our input can even save a life. I highly doubt this will be the last for the Model A fan blade issue.

[Model "A" Fords]

As the Model A Ford ages, there are more chances for failure as parts wear or fatigue. The judging standards access cars to look just of the line. This requirement means that parts that need to be replaced must look original according to the judging standard as "just off the production line".

We can't change what the car looked like, originally. The fact is restorations will become more difficult and expensive as time passes and parts get harder to replace. This just means that those that can do, or pay for the work to make the original look get the credit.

If a fan doesn't look correct, than unfortunately it isn't as it was off the production line and won't make the grade. I'm not saying to be unsafe and put people at risk of harm for the sake of originality. Use what is safe although it may not be correct and take the deductions as the just off the line car may be out of reach for some.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by JayJay

To add perhaps a bit of humor (apologies to you folks in the upper midwest) - the 49ers won last weekend, thereby avoiding a "fan catastrophe".

All kidding aside, this has been a great discussion. I really appreciate Brent's and others perspectives on what it takes to have a truly fine points car. I will never be there for the simple reason that I enjoy driving mine. I strive for "correct" when feasible, but for safety and reliability I often deviate. After all, we have learned some valuable lessons in the last 90 years, and I would say that brake drums are perhaps the best lesson we have learned. I have experienced brake fade on steel drums coming down a hill in San Francisco and it's not pretty.

Not picking on you Jay because I hear this constantly as people try to justify their modifications. It is my opinion that people do not realize that the main reason why Model-As are still popular today is because they were reliably driven, ...and driven, -and driven for 40-50 years after they were originally built.

I explain to people that what most people misunderstand is they view a Fine Point car as just being 'pretty'. An accurate restoration involves more about returning ALL components of the vehicle to a condition equal to when these vehicles were originally manufactured. From what I know about the owners who have shown their vehicles in MARC or MAFCA Fine-Point competitions, most, -if not all of those vehicles are mechanically restored just as accurately as they are aesthetically. Gone are the days of Henry Awards being presented to 'Easter Eggs'.


On a side-note, generally speaking my experiences have shown it is the Driver's fault if they experienced brake fade with original drums and braking systems.

To begin with, if the brake shoe linings are incorrect or improperly adjusted, -OR if the drums are not within specifications, THAT is the driver's fault and not the vehicle's fault. Secondly, most Model-A drivers are ignorant on the proper operation of a Model-A. Most Model-A drivers I have observed in my 50+ years in this hobby typically use some level of arrogance when operating/driving a Model-A. Most do not know how to shift properly, and they do not know how to stop their vehicle properly. The Model "A" Instruction Book clearly details how to stop a Model-A, ...and even more clearly explains 'Descending a Hill'. It even specifically mentions how to descend what they term as exceptionally steep grades which I would assume would include a typical San Francisco hill. Show me where I am wrong in this please.

Originally Posted by mass A man

One can only imagine how big the Ford Model A "service bulletins" book would be if Ford kept it going for 90 years! The things we all have learned or even brought to light for others on this website is truly invaluable and some of our input can even save a life. I highly doubt this will be the last for the Model A fan blade issue.

In all honesty, it is my opinion that the Service Bulletins ended when they needed to. To your point, it would seem that many of the reasons why the S/B would have needed to be continued would be to correct all of the Restorers & Repairers from their McGuyvering of their Model-A.

.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not picking on you Jay because I hear this constantly as people try to justify their modifications.

On a side-note, generally speaking my experiences have shown it is the Driver's fault if they experienced brake fade with original drums and braking systems.

To begin with, if the brake shoe linings are incorrect or improperly adjusted, -OR if the drums are not within specifications, THAT is the driver's fault and not the vehicle's fault. Secondly, most Model-A drivers are ignorant on the proper operation of a Model-A. Most Model-A drivers I have observed in my 50+ years in this hobby typically use some level of arrogance when operating/driving a Model-A. Most do not know how to shift properly, and they do not know how to stop their vehicle properly. The Model "A" Instruction Book clearly details how to stop a Model-A, ...and even more clearly explains 'Descending a Hill'. It even specifically mentions how to descend what they term as exceptionally steep grades which I would assume would include a typical San Francisco hill. Show me where I am wrong in this please.

There is no question that my experience with brake fade was 110% driver error. Plain and simple, I overdrove the car. Explanation (not justification) was that this was in the late '60's, I was a new driver, and I had no experience to put into context what I had been told that "Model A brakes are not as forgiving as modern car brakes" (yeah, at the time a 1960's car was "modern"!). It was pure luck (and a lot of ahooga's) that when I coasted into the intersection at the bottom of the hill that there was no oncoming traffic. Now I have that experience, and the fact that this experience has stuck with me for 55+ years (and has not been repeated) is good. And yes, I would think that one (and others) would be "exceptionally steep hill".

My point was not to "justify" McGyvering a car. If my driving was in say Kansas then upgrading brake drums to help avoid fade might not be as important to me, with my previous experience, as it is. In addition, today's driving conditions are not what they were in 1930. My primary goal is to have a safe, reliable touring vehicle, and if that includes some changes along the way then that is acceptable to me. I recognize that others have the right to differ in opinion. My personal take, given my priorities, is that it is not unreasonable to consider some upgrades to my vehicle to help me accommodate those changes. LED taillights (two of them) and turn signals come to mind. Not at all original, but a tremendous benefit to help guard against the clueless idiots with whom we have to share the roads. If my primary goal was to restore to original then I might make different decisions.

[Bob Bidonde]

Many Model A'ers use the national judging standards as guidance to restore their non-fine Model A's. I suspect that more Model A folks use the judging standards than do fine-point people, so it is the non-fine point folks who learn the hard-way that original fans are dangerous.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

Many Model A'ers use the national judging standards as guidance to restore their non-fine Model A's. I suspect that more Model A folks use the judging standards than do fine-point people, so it is the non-fine point folks who learn the hard-way that original fans are dangerous.

Your point is valid Bob, but with that said there is a great amount of information about restoration that is NOT listed in that book. I find it a real shame that people cannot figure out things on their own any longer and must have a plainly outlined and concisely written directive at their fingertips before they can proceed with most restoration tasks.