The Ford Barn

Marshall V. Daut · 11-08-2016, 05:41 PM

Bear with me on this one. It takes some background exposition before I get around to describing what is happening and what I suspect may be the problem.
I am fixing a friend's Model A engine (cylinder boring, new pistons & rings, valve job, seating the bearings with Time Saver, etc.). Everything went back together fine, good compression. Cranks turns over with proper resistance. We're good to go. The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up. "Oh, great! The bearings have seized or the crankshaft snapped in two", I thought. 'Couldn't budge the engine with the starter or hand crank. Out came the engine for the SECOND time. It gets disassembled and all bearings checked. All are still o.k. The crank is still in one piece. The engine goes back together carefully again and is installed for the SECOND time. Everything is hooked up and bolted together. The starter rod is depressed and only clunking happens. Clunk, clunk, clunk. The crank will not turn. The engine will not turn over no matter what I do, even jumping it with a 12 volt battery. Now I'm just beginning to get p*ssed. This is not my first rodeo. I have probably gone through 30-40 Model A and T engines in my time. So I KNOW I am putting this thing back together properly with correct clearances.
O.K. Out comes the engine for the THIRD time and is disassembled again. Still nothing wrong. All clearances are correct and I can turn the crank over via the flywheel on the engine stand. I re-assemble the engine minus the transmission sitting on the garage floor and hook up the starter this time to test whether the engine will turn over before re-installing it. Hurray! The crank turns over, not fast, but it does turn over! It's a tight engine with new rings, so it shouldn't spin TOO easily. The bellhousing and tranny are re-bolted to the engine and the whole mess goes back into the car for the THIRD time. I'm certain whatever was wrong somehow magically got fixed and all will work properly. Everything is bolted back together and hooked up again for a starter test. Clunk, clunk, clunk!!! No spinning. Now I'm REALLY p*ssed and am considering going to the dark side and collecting Chevies instead of antique Fords.
A few minutes ago, I was sitting on the front seat of the car in a deep state of depression and frustration over this affair, when I decide to push in the clutch and try the starter. Spin, spin, spin!!! VERY fast, much faster than when the engine was on the garage floor. What the ---???? I removed the inspection plate over the clutch and looked inside with a flashlight. The pressure plate fingers seem a little low, but the adjusting arm brought the throwout bearing within correct clearance. I try the engine again with the clutch pedal up, and the engine goes clunk, clunk, clunk. It will not turn over until I depress the clutch pedal. As I let the pedal out while the engine is spinning, the engine locks up.
So, finally my question. What the you-know-what is happening here? The springs are still in the clutch disk and it is installed correctly. Was that loud metallic bang I heard just before the engine locked up the first time the clutch committing suicide? I have only had to replace one or two really badly slipping or failed clutches in a Model A in 50 years. So this is a new problem for me. What do you clutch guys say? I know the engine will have to come out for the FOURTH time, but I want to have a good idea what to look for in the clutch area. By the way, when the engine won't spin, the car does not try to lurch move forward = it is not in gear. I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral.
Thanks in advance.
Marshall, the Frustrated One

tbirdtbird · 11-08-2016, 06:22 PM

stock clutch and PP?

sounds like PP binding on BH somehow
or disk somehow.
I would not put the engine back in the car until I had mounted the engine, FW housing, BH, PP on an engine stand and ran it that way, with the disc NOT installed and see what happens.
If it does the same thing change out the PP and disk for another set and see what happens
Give that disk a good look-see 'cause there hafta be witness marks on it somewhere

No burrs/defects inside the FWH or BH?

It's gonna end up being something really stupid but you know that

Jacksonlll · 11-08-2016, 06:28 PM

While you are taking everything apart, pull the trans cover, (tower) off and take a peek. Just might be the input shaft locked up..

MAG · 11-08-2016, 06:35 PM

X2 on post 3

James Rogers · 11-08-2016, 06:41 PM

Sounds like something in the transmission.

tbirdtbird · 11-08-2016, 06:55 PM

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Marshall I think you and I have been led down the garden path...

I think the tranny guys are onto something.
Same tranny as before? Anyone take tower off and reinstall it such that it is in two gears at once? Etc?

"The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up."

Whatever the BANG was surely indicates some damage somewhere

MAG · 11-08-2016, 08:06 PM

" I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral."
I am thinking as long as the engine is not running and transmission is locked between gears other than 3rd the car would roll.

Kurt in NJ · 11-08-2016, 08:36 PM

Push down the clutch with the engine not running and try moving the car in gear----the fact that the engine cranks good with the clutch pushed down means the clutch is working----i agree that most likely in trans----

DougT · 11-08-2016, 09:45 PM

The fact that ther car rolls in neutral and the engine spins with the clutch in limits the problem to the input shaft or countershaft. Something could have been riding around in the trans and never caused a problem until the trans got jiggled around during the removal and reinstall. The bang was something getting lodged somewhere.

Larry Jenkins · 11-08-2016, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

Bear with me on this one. It takes some background exposition before I get around to describing what is happening and what I suspect may be the problem.
I am fixing a friend's Model A engine (cylinder boring, new pistons & rings, valve job, seating the bearings with Time Saver, etc.). Everything went back together fine, good compression. Cranks turns over with proper resistance. We're good to go. The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up. "Oh, great! The bearings have seized or the crankshaft snapped in two", I thought. 'Couldn't budge the engine with the starter or hand crank. Out came the engine for the SECOND time. It gets disassembled and all bearings checked. All are still o.k. The crank is still in one piece. The engine goes back together carefully again and is installed for the SECOND time. Everything is hooked up and bolted together. The starter rod is depressed and only clunking happens. Clunk, clunk, clunk. The crank will not turn. The engine will not turn over no matter what I do, even jumping it with a 12 volt battery. Now I'm just beginning to get p*ssed. This is not my first rodeo. I have probably gone through 30-40 Model A and T engines in my time. So I KNOW I am putting this thing back together properly with correct clearances.
O.K. Out comes the engine for the THIRD time and is disassembled again. Still nothing wrong. All clearances are correct and I can turn the crank over via the flywheel on the engine stand. I re-assemble the engine minus the transmission sitting on the garage floor and hook up the starter this time to test whether the engine will turn over before re-installing it. Hurray! The crank turns over, not fast, but it does turn over! It's a tight engine with new rings, so it shouldn't spin TOO easily. The bellhousing and tranny are re-bolted to the engine and the whole mess goes back into the car for the THIRD time. I'm certain whatever was wrong somehow magically got fixed and all will work properly. Everything is bolted back together and hooked up again for a starter test. Clunk, clunk, clunk!!! No spinning. Now I'm REALLY p*ssed and am considering going to the dark side and collecting Chevies instead of antique Fords.
A few minutes ago, I was sitting on the front seat of the car in a deep state of depression and frustration over this affair, when I decide to push in the clutch and try the starter. Spin, spin, spin!!! VERY fast, much faster than when the engine was on the garage floor. What the ---???? I removed the inspection plate over the clutch and looked inside with a flashlight. The pressure plate fingers seem a little low, but the adjusting arm brought the throwout bearing within correct clearance. I try the engine again with the clutch pedal up, and the engine goes clunk, clunk, clunk. It will not turn over until I depress the clutch pedal. As I let the pedal out while the engine is spinning, the engine locks up.
So, finally my question. What the you-know-what is happening here? The springs are still in the clutch disk and it is installed correctly. Was that loud metallic bang I heard just before the engine locked up the first time the clutch committing suicide? I have only had to replace one or two really badly slipping or failed clutches in a Model A in 50 years. So this is a new problem for me. What do you clutch guys say? I know the engine will have to come out for the FOURTH time, but I want to have a good idea what to look for in the clutch area. By the way, when the engine won't spin, the car does not try to lurch move forward = it is not in gear. I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral.
Thanks in advance.
Marshall, the Frustrated One

When you find out what it is, it would have made a great article for the old Model A Trader..

daveymc29 · 11-08-2016, 10:45 PM

I vote with the tranny guys. It may have broken something because it was in two gears at once and you may not have to be in neutral to push it back and forth. Pull the tower and have friends help you to watch the gears while you move the car in and out of gears, all gears. Odds are the tranny needs a serious rebuild by now. But first, remove the tower and check, It may be that the transmission is okay and the U-joint has it all locked up. That may have been your "clunk."

tbirdtbird · 11-09-2016, 10:49 AM

Marshall, where are U?

gweilbaker · 11-09-2016, 11:14 AM

He's elbow deep into this dilemma

larrys40 · 11-10-2016, 08:59 AM

Marshall

I'm not saying this is it as I think your symptom would be different but I recently had a repro clutch plate and pressure plate have a size issue with each other.
The inner part of the spring plate on the clutch was slightly larger than the inner circle of the pressure plate and the clutch would not release as the clutch disk even though installed correctly and fingers set would not release . In this case it would not lock up but the clutch would not release .

I feel you have a transmission issue and possibly a broken tooth or foreign matter in your trans that may be locking up thh input shaft.
Like the other guys said can you pull the trans top
( while pulling make sure your forks were aligned if previously off ) and check things out .
I consider myself schooled more than 98 percent of many but have had things happen as well like the clutch disk I described above.

Remember not to start with trans top off!!!
I know you know but just a friendly reminder in your desperation and frustration .
All the best
Larry Shepard

Marshall V. Daut · 11-10-2016, 09:34 AM

UPDATE: To all who have given excellent suggestions: Thank you for taking the time to respond with the benefit of your experience.
I pulled the engine yesterday afternoon for the FOURTH time in 10 days and I think I have isolated the problem that is causing the engine to lock up. Although this has for certain locked up the engine, I need to know the why this happened before I put everything back together again and install the power plant in the chassis. Could it happen again for no reason? I will be addressing that today and tomorrow. I prefer not to reveal the suspected cause until I have been able to start the engine and not have it bang and lock up again. Remember: the engine turned over fine and started before it suddenly locked up last week. Something caused the part to fail that did the locking. I don't want to give out the wrong answer if this part fails again, so please be patient for the answer until probably tomorrow evening. Not much time can be stolen away from our front porch repair while the weather is still good. Otherwise, I'd have the whole shooting match back together and running late this afternoon.
Stay tuned...
Marshall

larrys40 · 11-10-2016, 10:18 AM

Sounds great Marshall . I have had more clutch issues with various parts ( mostly aftermarket or repro ) this last year than the last 10 before
Unbelievable !!! Hopefully you have it licked !!
Larry Shepard

tbirdtbird · 11-10-2016, 10:23 AM

In another life Marshall wrote suspense thriller screenplays

100IH · 11-10-2016, 12:35 PM

How about Rippley's Believe it or not?

quickchange · 11-10-2016, 01:18 PM

Last week a friend arrived with his A , wanted new gears fitted as his where noisy & had sold the vehicle , HE pulled the engine & trans , Fitted new trans, decided too inspect the clutch , fitted new plate, asked if flywheel bolts should have a washer under the heads , answer no , but should have the metal plate, just take one fro the spares, he did, fitted all back in vehicle , hit the started & it goes clonk , no turn over, He hops in a plane & goes home, frustrated as hell , ( he is a bean counter ) I pull all apart , see the problem, SOME ONE AT SOME TIME USED TORQUE TUBE BOLTS to bolt flywheel on , THESE ARE TOO LONG , hit rear main, fitted correct bolts , installed back in the 4 door , all good , Just be aware that bits got changed over the years ,
Marshall , could this be an area too check on , Derek in a damp but mild NZ spring is here & lawns need cutting each week,

Marshall V. Daut · 11-11-2016, 04:50 PM

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall

justold · 11-11-2016, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall

Did you install the pilot bushing in the end of the crank shaft ? Without it the input shaft would be able to wobble and break the gear on the other end .

Marshall V. Daut · 11-11-2016, 05:22 PM

Quick answer to "justold" - Yes, a new pilot bearing was installed.
Marshall

Larry Jenkins · 11-11-2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall

This is the way he wrote articles in the old Model A Trader. The one about his muffler experience is an example..

V4F · 11-12-2016, 08:52 AM

maybe flywheel bolts hitting (as the head is to thick) . the disc does not like thick flywheel bolts

Marshall V. Daut · 11-12-2016, 09:56 AM

Until I can post a more complete follow-up and to avoid wasting people's time making engine-related suggestions, I will reveal here and now that it was a transmission-related cause of locking up. I had gone through the engine three times after three subsequent engine removals, but couldn't really find a smoking gun for the banging and subsequent engine lock up. I, too, had thought it must be the engine because it had taken 96% of time and effort in this project. It REALLY needed a great deal of help. I removed a shim or two from the rods and mains to dial in the clearances even better after its short idling time, but seized bearings was not the problem. The tranny guys were right on the mark.
And I can also tell you that this problem has NEVER popped up in all my 50+ years messing around with Model A's! As I wrote in this posting's title, it's a new one on me. More tomorrow night...hopefully.
Marshall

Art Newland · 11-12-2016, 05:42 PM

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Return tomorrow for the next exciting chapter of "As the Crankshaft Turns"! Or in this case "doesn't turn"! Will Marshall finally get this Model A on the road, and out of his hair?Will he have to pull the engine out of the car again? (oh! The humanity!) Will he find the quarter that fell out of his pant's pocket in the transmission? Will little Timmy be able to play the piano again after his tragic run-in with Aunt Matilda's pet armadillo?? Tune in tomorrow, for the next exciting chapter of... "As the Crankshaft (hopefully) Turns"!

Marshall V. Daut · 11-12-2016, 06:50 PM

Art's description is considerably more interesting than the reality show I've been living with this %$&^% car!!! "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a Model A? The Shadow knows!" Or, " Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-time, same Bat-channel."
Marshall, cousin of Ming the Merciless (Anyone remember him?)

jb-ob · 11-12-2016, 08:39 PM

'Ming the Merciless' and the Clay People with Flash Gordon.....remember the rocket with a sparkler in the back gliding down a string ??

"Stay Tuned Kiddies for Another Thrill Packed Episode of Marshall's Maddening Model 'A'.......

Currently 4 - zip

Good Luck to our Super Hero

Marshall V. Daut · 11-13-2016, 12:06 AM

"jb-ob" -
BINGO!!! You got it!

Marshall

Larry Jenkins · 11-13-2016, 12:21 AM

In spite of all the fun jabs and one little "dumb ass" one, how many of us would ask for that kind of help from one who is pretty knowledgeable? ...

Art Newland · 11-13-2016, 11:37 AM

It's normal to assume the new problem comes from something you just repaired. If you have ever been a repair-person for hire, just ask one of your customers.

Quote:

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a Model A?

Or any machine for that matter! The next broken thing can be right around the corner, it's just unfortunate that it breaks just after you fix something else. It really screws up the whole "diagnostic flow". Marshal, best of luck with this repair and I hope we'll all learn something new from your trial-of-fire. Thanks for sharing.

jb-ob · 11-13-2016, 09:48 PM

OK Marshall, time is up !

Went through enough suspense last week, what's up ???

No extra innings or over time !

The American Public (Ford Barn) has a right to know !

You stringing us along or what ??

And where is my Model A News ??

JB

Marshall V. Daut · 11-13-2016, 09:57 PM

O.K. Enough suspense. It's time to reveal the cause of my problem cited in the initial posting on the first page of this thread. I did not post the answer before now because I didn't want to prematurely broadcast what I had found - only to get another shock when it happened again after announcing to the world the problem. Even though I am not 100% ready, it's not fair to the "Fordbarn" readers to keep dragging this thing out. The reason for the engine locking up and refusing to turn over has been discovered and repaired. But it's not as simple as that. The engine and transmission have been re-installed into the car for the fourth time, but not started due to other time constraints. The starter now turns the engine over at a good clip, even without depressing the clutch (read my postings in this thread to get up to speed on the problem and subsequent dribblings of information). But therein lies the rub! Recall that before I first started the engine two weeks ago, I could hand crank it and the starter had no trouble turning over the engine enough to start it. In other words, the situation is exactly the same now as then. Gulp! I will not know if I actually fixed the problem until the engine is started again tomorrow. What went wrong two weeks ago happened within 20 seconds of the engine starting. If after finding the problem and making the repair, the engine bangs and locks up again, I will be completely frazzled.
But I know most of you are more interested in learning the cause of the problem with my engine. Well, it turned out not to be in the engine after all. Maybe I should have known that, but this engine was possibly THE worst "rebuilt" Model A engine I have ever seen. I'm sure my older friend, who has owned this car since 1970, sought out the cheapest repair job he could find 30 years ago and paid commensurately. Yeah, he's that kind of Model A owner. Anyway, in my own defense for not suspecting the guilty party at first, this engine needed everything to make it usable, absorbing 96% of my time with this project. It was only natural to assume that my life-saving efforts to resuscitate a corpse went haywire somewhere. A short list of my friend's engine problems before repairs included:
(1) .060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders
(2) Pistons had been knurled 360 degrees on the entire skirt surface up to the ring grooves to compensate for being undersized
(3) 0.035 piston ring end gaps because the rings were wrong
(4) The valve seats had been cut at an angle, presumably because the drill with seat grinding bit had been hand-held instead of mounted on an arbor in the valve guide bore
(5) The rear main bearing's oil drain tube was lying at the bottom of the pan
(6) Numerous chips in the Babbitt, both mains and rods
(7) The front Babbitt thrust surface on the rear main bearing saddle was worn to almost nothing and the rear thrust surface had broken off in a half-moon chunk and was lying next to the drain tube in the bottom of the oil pan = 0.040" crankshaft end play
(8) Main bearings so were loose that at least eight shims were removed from the mains alone!
(9) Deep groove worn in the flywheel surface from clutch disk rivets
(10) Clutch fingers were more than 1" from the top surface instead of the required 5/8" to 11/16"
(11) Shot throwout and pilot bearings
Well, you get the idea. There's more, but why bother? So, my first thought when the engine started banging and then seized was that I had scr*wed something up inside the engine. That's why my focus fell on the engine instead of the real culprit = the transmission. Duh on me! Those who suggested the transmission was at fault were partially correct. It wasn't the transmission per se; actually, it was the NEW front bearing on the input shaft. Within 10 minutes of posting this problem here, Larry Brumfield emailed me off-line and nailed the problem. Others were on the right track, but no one actually stated the front bearing and input shaft specifically.
Background: I had replaced both main transmission bearings because lube was almost flowing out of both ends of the case. I have done this job 100 times before. I know the front bearing was not binding and locking in the transmission case after I had installed it because upon the initial power plant installation after rebuilding the engine, the engine could be easily hand cranked. Only AFTER the engine ran for a few seconds did it lock up. I am fearful it will do the same thing this time. See my dilemma? WHAT ON EARTH would have caused the input shaft to seize so quickly and firmly with a new bearing? The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective. The baffle plate is oriented correctly behind the bearing. I will finish putting the external parts on the engine tomorrow and start it up. Hopefully the transmission locking up was just a fluke. But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!!
The final piece of the puzzle will be posted tomorrow night. Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.
Marshall

tbirdtbird · 11-13-2016, 10:17 PM

"The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective"

So how do you have any idea that this is what locked up?

The engine sounds like it was pure junk.
.060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders? Really? Someone needs to have their tools taken away.

Surely it is not possible that you did not dial in the FW housing..........If the FW housing angle were bad enough I can see the input shaft being bound up.
Or is everything so chewed up back there that this cannot be properly done. How do we even know if the crank is setting in its correct centers?
With pistons fit like that then I would say all bets are off to the actual health of the motor at any point in time regardless of the effort you put into it....who knows what else is wrong that you haven't even found yet

jb-ob · 11-13-2016, 10:25 PM

Geese, a grenade motor and transmission.....What could possibly go wrong???

I'll be back for another installment tomorrow Mister Wizard.

JB

Marshall V. Daut · 11-13-2016, 10:25 PM

"tbirdtbird" -
Hmmm...that's a scary thought! When I tested the input shaft upon power plant disassembly this past Thursday, it would not budge AT ALL, which is why it would not allow the engine to turn. I removed the input shaft, placed the nose on the garage floor, and tapped around the rim of the bearing. It may have been jammed because after I did that, the bearing turned on the shaft. Test fitting the input shaft and bearing back into the transmission case, everything worked and the tranny was normal in operation going through the gears. If the bearing had been shoved too closely against the baffle and stop rim, why did this happen during the engine running, but not before, i.e. during assembly? In other words, the bearing was not jammed against the thrust plate and stop rim when the engine went in the first time. Your suggestion that the problem lies somewhere else in the transmission gives me pause to worry. But once again I must ask: what, where, how and why would this happen?
Marshall

tbirdtbird · 11-13-2016, 10:28 PM

Marshall I have great respect for your work. You are one of the few knowldgeable posters here that doesn't just run off at the mouth. But I have to wonder if the root cause of the problem has been found, unless there is more you are not telling

daveymc29 · 11-13-2016, 10:30 PM

But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!!

Well that's what the guy said when his horse died.
"I have never had this happen to me before." lan't it?

Marshall V. Daut · 11-13-2016, 11:10 PM

"tbirdtbird" -
Thank you for the kind words. Very humbling...

In regards to the transmission, upon removal from the case, the bearing would not turn on the input shaft until I tapped it downward, as explained in my recent post. Something had acted upon it to force the bearing and thrust plate together and bind against the shaft's stop rim. Upon reassembly, everything tested o.k. I sure hope there isn't something else wrong in the tranny. You bring up a point that has been nagging me since Thursday: did I actually fix the problem, or was there something else I missed inside the transmission? I can't imagine what. A Model A transmission is such a simple animal and almost bulletproof when assembling. Other than mistakenly swapping the short and long bearings inside the cluster gear, I don't think the Model A transmission can be put back together improperly, yet still function. It had worked fine (except for the lube hemorrhaging) until the new main bearings were installed. I guess we'll have to wait until later tomorrow to see if the problem is fixed.
Marshall

Tom Wesenberg · 11-13-2016, 11:24 PM

I'd be pulling the shift tower and double check the shift forks to be sure they are both engaged in the grooves of the gears. This is one thing I'm very careful about because of what can happen when two gears slide into mesh at the same time. If the tranny is on the bench this is easy to assemble, but with the tranny in the car I like to get down and look through the crack as I lower the tower into place.

From the work done on the engine, it would be worth it just to look inside the tranny anyway.

Dick Steinkamp · 11-13-2016, 11:53 PM

Spacer ring on end of main shaft?

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 07:21 AM

When the problem with locking up first happened, the shift tower was removed to check the placement of the main gears. With them lined up in neutral, the hand crank still couldn't budge the engine. The gears would have remained in this neutral position even with the shift tower removed long enough during hand cranking to check for a binding, but not with the starter. No luck = binding. The shift tower was and is not at fault. As updated, everything seems fine at the moment..at least, until I start the engine later today. Keep your fingers cross for me!

Marshall

Jacksonlll · 11-14-2016, 07:39 AM

Make sure in all this mess that your starter pinion has not jammed into the ring gear. This can fool you. If the engine will rotate with the crank, the pinion is OK.

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 07:57 AM

"JacksonIII" - A new ring gear was installed with the teeth oriented properly towards the back. Previously even with the starter removed, the engine could not be turned over by hand or the starter after it locked up.

"tbirdtbird" - Yes, the "mechanic" who did this engine 30+ years ago should be shot at sunrise...and then strung up. Just plain criminally stupid! But this kind of "repair" is pretty much the normal state of "quality" work to be expected around here. No surprise at all. I've seen such schlock work many times since moving back here 11 years ago. After much pleading and begging, plus an act of Congress, I was able to convince the cheapskate owner of this car to have the block bored out and to purchase new pistons and rings. The block cleaned up at 0.0100" over. Ring gap now is at 0.016" after honing the cylinders. Crankshaft end thrust was restored by adding the special brass insert (Snyder's part #A-6334) at the back of the bearing saddle, which replaces the aluminum rear main "seal (it doesn't!), and by applying a brass shim on the front of the rear bearing saddle. A friend with a portable valve seat grinding set-up re-did the valve seats in the block using the correct arbor for the grinding bit. He refaced each valve at his shop on his valve grinding equipment. Valves should now be o.k. and sealing properly.

"Dick Steinkamp" - Yes, the ring is in place on the input shaft. I double-checked that during input shaft removal and inspection.

Brian T · 11-14-2016, 11:23 AM

Hello Marshall,
Just a thought, as Dick Stienkamp mentioned the spacer on the main shaft, some main shafts have the spacer machined into the shaft, is it possible that a spacer was added when not required causing the input shaft to bind , maybe forced the bearing balls out of there track.

I have been in these situations with moderns several times, makes one wonder if one should give it up, hang in there, seek and you shall find.

Mark in MT · 11-14-2016, 11:51 AM

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Marshall:

I worked on a friends tranny which would pop out of 3rd gear and had been worked over by another club member. One thing I found wrong was it had a long roller bearing in the pocket between the input and output shafts. There is enough difference in length that a long one will hit on the end plates once everything is put back together, this could put enough force on the ball bearing to bind it up once it gets running.

George Miller · 11-14-2016, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

"tbirdtbird" -
Thank you for the kind words. Very humbling...

In regards to the transmission, upon removal from the case, the bearing would not turn on the input shaft until I tapped it downward, as explained in my recent post. Something had acted upon it to force the bearing and thrust plate together and bind against the shaft's stop rim. Upon reassembly, everything tested o.k. I sure hope there isn't something else wrong in the tranny. You bring up a point that has been nagging me since Thursday: did I actually fix the problem, or was there something else I missed inside the transmission? I can't imagine what. A Model A transmission is such a simple animal and almost bulletproof when assembling. Other than mistakenly swapping the short and long bearings inside the cluster gear, I don't think the Model A transmission can be put back together improperly, yet still function. It had worked fine (except for the lube hemorrhaging) until the new main bearings were installed. I guess we'll have to wait until later tomorrow to see if the problem is fixed.
Marshall

All that you said is true, but remember that same guy probably did the transmission. So all bets are off. Good luck.
George

George Miller · 11-14-2016, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark in MT

Marshall:

I worked on a friends tranny which would pop out of 3rd gear and had been worked over by another club member. One thing I found wrong was it had a long roller bearing in the pocket between the input and output shafts. There is enough difference in length that a long one will hit on the end plates once everything is put back together, this could put enough force on the ball bearing to bind it up once it gets running.

That could do it. Sounds to me that it must be something like that.

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 12:34 PM

Thanks, Mark and George. I made sure the short bearing was lubed and installed.

O.K. Down to the garage I go to put this monster back in running order. Maybe in two hours I'll know something?

Marshall

Brian T · 11-14-2016, 02:18 PM

Here is part of an article courtesy of Tom Endy, (Transmission traps) that describes what I posted earlier, this would result in binding the same as if installing the long bearing.

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 02:19 PM

5th time charm??? I hope so, 'cuz the engine and tranny have to come out AGAIN!!! Yup - the engine started a few minutes ago, but was tapping again before it locked up for the second time with a CLUNK, the same way it did last week. This time it only ran for 5 or 10 seconds before the whole shebang locked up. I'll pull the power plant tomorrow evening and COMPLETELY disassemble the tranny until I find out what is going wrong inside. I've gone from p*ssed off to mildly obsessed with finding the root of the problem. It has now become a challenge instead of a major frustration. I'll bet the front bearing is locked against the gear again, which stops the engine dead in its revolution. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the input shaft, but we'll all have to wait until tomorrow night or Wednesday to know for sure.
Ain't working on these cars fun????
Marshall

Dick Steinkamp · 11-14-2016, 03:49 PM

Sorry about that Marshall. The bad news is that it is frustrating and time consuming. The good news is that you will have a great sense of accomplishment when you figure it out (and you will!).

old car guy · 11-14-2016, 06:04 PM

Marshall
I truly feel the irritation disgust and the general pissed off that a problem like this brings out when things like this occur. I was there many years ago, albeit on a different car and with a another set of issues and the motor of that dam car came out three times by me and another three times by my assorted friends that were more expert than me in their eyes at least.
I swear I actually thought about calling a crusher and sending the car to the happy boneyard in the sky. But after the last time we or I should say I found the problem ,fixed it and it was the best auto I ever owned . Sold it many years back and wish to this day I had not. Keep at it. Find the problem fix it and next year this time it will all seem funny. Not now not even in a few months but it will become a funny issue to talk and lement about. Good luck and please keep up us to speed

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 07:54 PM

Well, now I'm really stumped. The engine and tranny are out and separated as of half an hour ago. The input shaft was NOT locked up as it was the first time this happened. The symptoms, however, were exactly the same as when the engine locked up before = tap, tap, tap, CLUNK! Locked up engine! This time it happened in 10 seconds' idling time instead of 20. Things are now going wrong twice as fast around here.

I haven't disassembled the transmission yet, but the input shaft had been my #1 suspect. I did notice tonight that the snout is shorter than I have seen on all other input shafts. As the shoulder of the shaft comes into contact with the pilot bearing, would a too short shaft end come into play here? Is it important that the snot bottom out against the flywheel in front of the pilot bearing? I can't see how the input shaft would move forward if it didn't bottom out because the splined portion of the shaft cannot go deeper than the pilot bearing's inside ring and the input shaft bearing is held in place by that odd-looking "funnel" front bearing retainer. I can't see how the shaft would move forward while the engine is running. I'll look for signs of scraping inside that bearing retainer tomorrow. anyway.
Tomorrow I'll pull the tranny apart and see if there's anything obviously wrong. Frustration is beginning to make a comeback now.

Marshall

Tom Wesenberg · 11-14-2016, 08:29 PM

Did you try running the engine with the clutch pushed in?

Marshall V. Daut · 11-14-2016, 09:02 PM

Tom -
Not with the engine running, but turning it over via the starter with the clutch pedal pushed in. Yes, it turned over with the pedal depressed, as before. Maybe I should have tried to start the engine with the clutch pushed in, but I was sure the input shaft was locked again. Too late now that the engine and tranny are on the garage floor.
Marshall

Dick Steinkamp · 11-14-2016, 09:13 PM

Marshall...I'm sure you'll be successful this time, but just in case, is there a way you can test start the engine with the trans attached on the ground before installing it in the car?

Greg Jones · 11-14-2016, 09:14 PM

As long as we are guessing at stuff....have you closely checked out your shifter forks to make sure that they are keeping the gears where they are supposed to? I suppose if you had gears going where they shouldn't be going at the wrong time you not only would hear it but could also see some damage. Could a loose u-joint somehow create such a thing, i.e., loose bolt or foreign material somehow made its way into the u-joint grease and gets rattled around. Just guessin' out loud. I feel your pain, as they say.

Dick Steinkamp · 11-14-2016, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Jones

Could a loose u-joint somehow create such a thing, i.e., loose bolt or foreign material somehow made its way into the u-joint grease and gets rattled around. Just guessin' out loud. I feel your pain, as they say.

The output shaft wouldn't be turning in neutral. Hence the U joint wouldn't be in play.

Greg Jones · 11-14-2016, 09:19 PM

Yeah I thought of that after I posted. Seems like input shaft area is a leading candidate....

DougT · 11-14-2016, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

I'll bet the front bearing is locked against the gear again, which stops the engine dead in its revolution. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the input shaft, but we'll all have to wait until tomorrow night or Wednesday to know for sure.
Ain't working on these cars fun????
Marshall

Marshall, when you say the bearing is locked against the gear, are you talking counter gear or input gear? Before you pull the trans apart, check the endplay in the shafts. You wouldn't want the snout of the input bottoming in the crank or the splines bottoming on the flywheel. If they did, it could force the shaft back into the trans and cause the problem if I'm understanding it right. Another thought would be the input shaft bent somewhere like the pilot snout.

Tom Wesenberg · 11-14-2016, 09:45 PM

I can't imagine something in the tranny stopping a running engine without there being severe damage. Wish I was there to help, as I like a good mystery, but even better is learning the solution.

iverson · 11-14-2016, 10:12 PM

any chance something is in the pilot bearing hole? that would push back the input shaft?

john charlton · 11-15-2016, 04:32 AM

Luckily over the years I have a selection of good used transmissions from people who have swapped to a 39 trans . If you have another good trans like me just swap it out completely . If you still have the same problem then you are suffering from "baby mouse ghost syndrome !!!" How about running the motor in the car without the trans installed might be final proof where the fault lays or is that lies HHMMMM .

John in sunny Suffolk County England

john charlton · 11-15-2016, 06:02 AM

Thinking about it maybe the tapping noise you get before lockup is the transmission trying to get into gear and the bang is when it does . When you take the tower off the gear has returned to its correct position thus throwing you off the scent . Maybe a gear with a shallow shoulder which allows the fork to become disengaged or worn/misaligned fork or combination of both . Just a thought .

John in same place but raining now Suffolk County England .

tinkirk · 11-15-2016, 09:43 AM

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I'm not seeing here where you ran the motor on the stand without the trans attached i think i would run motor on stand or how ever you want before installing in the car before and after attaching the trans.
Don't see where you mentioned, where the ticking noise is coming from before everything comes to stop.

Marshall V. Daut · 11-15-2016, 09:54 AM

The tapping noise appears to be coming from the rear of the engine or inside the bellhousing. The engine doesn't run long enough before locking up for me to isolate where the tapping is coming from. But it must be telling me that things will shut down shortly - and they do.
As I am becoming a speed expert at removing and install the engine and tranny in record time, I may just shove the engine back in without the tranny, as suggested. That way, if the engine works without locking up, I can consider the problem to be the transmission or possibly the clutch area. Kind of a Rube Goldberg way of solving the problem, but at this point, I'm about ready to try even this drastic and labor-redundant experiment.
M.

john charlton · 11-15-2016, 10:10 AM

With the going into gear theory the gear does not need to be fully home,only enough to lock up the trans .Undersize gear groove/ oversize shifter fork ??? Just another thought .Maybe try another tower but I would try running the engine with no trans first.

John in rainy Suffolk County England.

larrys40 · 11-15-2016, 11:29 AM

Marshall... this is quite the drama. I have refrained from commenting and probably still should. This is really fairly simple. run the engine on a test stand and make sure the engine will perform on the stand. Obviously any unusual noises etc will be known.

Then add the trans to it sans ujoint. You may want to pull the rear bearing retainer so you can check out the front and rear bearings simply ( including the pocket bearing) and make sure the front input shaft is meshing with the cluster. Are you sure the cluster is good and no teeth broken ( laying in bottom of trans case ready to be picked up).
Once all is verified reassemble the trans ensuring all bearings are good.

In my opinion aside from internals in the engine the only things that are really going to lock up the engine to a stop are :
clutch issue - exploded or jamming
cluster/input shaft / gear lock up
total bearing lock up on main trans bearings. take all apart and ensure they are good.
Once these are verified and installed/mated to the test stand to verify it should be a known good at that point.

Test stand run to your liking... then install.
If I were working on it after engine is verified good alone with flywheel and clutch I would disassemble trans and replace all the bearings. Lets face it.. the bearings are less than $50 for all. Since you can't see the rollers and race inside the front and rear bearings to me those are an unkown. for $20 you can replace both.

Good luck - Hopefully the saga and drama will come to a quick close for you.
I had a vibration issue once before and discovered it was a slightly bowed torque tube. I had the in and out 3 times in one evening. Finally covered everything but the torque tube. Replace it and all was well. Hang in there! There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Larry Shepard

Art Newland · 11-15-2016, 11:40 AM

Marshall, is there an engine stand available from another Model A guy/club local to you? Would be great to run it out of the car. I was also thinking about the severely worn thrust bearing you mentioned early in the thread. Could your fix/replacement be installed incorrectly, or could this indicate that there is an extreme force pushing on the crank?

Marshall V. Daut · 11-17-2016, 11:05 AM

Update: I installed just the engine in the car this morning without the bellhousing and transmission in an effort to trace why the newly-rebuilt engine locks up after a few seconds running. With it bolted in place and everything hooked up, the engine started...and stayed running. It did not knock real loud and suddenly stop, as it did before, refusing to be turned over by hand crank or starter. So the problem is NOT in the engine. Hurray on that count!
I am now left with the transmission or possibly the clutch. The engine locked up with the clutch trunion arm hooked up and then also with it disconnected. I assume I can then rule out the clutch. That leaves the transmission, which I will disassemble tomorrow. Hopefully a smoking gun will be found inside.
At least we know the engine is o.k. We're almost there!
Marshall

tbirdtbird · 11-17-2016, 11:14 AM

Yay!

Mitch//pa · 11-17-2016, 11:40 AM

Doing the diagnosis this way beats pulling the motor 9.5 times and performing exploratory surgery...

Marshall V. Daut · 11-17-2016, 12:04 PM

Yes, I wish I had done this after the third failure. But, hope springs eternal in the human breast. I thought each time I had solved the problem before I re-re-re-installed the power pant. Obviously NOT.

Marshall

Mitch//pa · 11-17-2016, 12:12 PM

I had a super bad vibration on one last year, (a fordbarners car) it felt like the bottom end of the motor..pulled the trans then started it up,,same vibration,,, pulled the clutch assy off vibration was gone,,, turns out the bolt holes for the pressure plate were drilled off center on the fly wheel so the clutch was not turning eccentric with the crank... we were able to see the pressure plate bobbinging a little.
Replaced the flywheel and all was good

john charlton · 11-17-2016, 12:34 PM

My money is on a bad shifter rail/fork alignment maybe bad pin certainly in the tower/fork/detent /sliding gear area . I along with all of us await with bated breath !!!

John in same weather same place .

tbirdtbird · 11-17-2016, 12:34 PM

YIKES! Mitch, how does stuff like this happen anyway? it never ran right, then.
It must have vibrated like the dickens....babbitt must have loved it

Marshall, I am betting there is a back story to the tranny that the owner is not telling you. Parts inside don't go bad suddenly while you are peacefully working on the motor

wonder what triggered him to suddenly make him spend money and have you work on the motor? there is more to this

Mitch//pa · 11-17-2016, 12:50 PM

YOOO Dave,,
Here is the thread i dug up about it....

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...light=Flywheel

your right on if he would have driven it the mains would have been beat out....

George Miller · 11-17-2016, 01:13 PM

I think all of us have been through this sort of thing. I learned when working on cars in my dads garage, to not lessen to what the owner said was wrong with his car. Say to him just tell me what it is doing. If not they can get you off in left field. That is just the way us humans are.

Art Newland · 11-17-2016, 07:06 PM

An easy trap to fall in is when you see the same thing over and over again, "assuming" it's the same-old thing without really checking it!

larrys40 · 11-17-2016, 08:18 PM

Mitch,
Those 35's are a little more difficult to pull due to the X member than the "A". Not too bad but glad you got that one worked out. My bet on Marshall's is a trans issue with the cluster/trans forks, or even a broken tooth in the trans. It's easily diagnosed with trans drained and inspected... even with engine in...... clutch depressed the input shaft and cluster should rotate freely out of gear. Hopefully fixed soon.
If I didn't have so much going on I'd drive up and see him for a day.
Larry Shepard

Larry Jenkins · 11-17-2016, 08:19 PM

My ignorance will show here, but is there a way to power up the tranny while it's on a stand, off the car?

Mitch//pa · 11-17-2016, 08:32 PM

Larry you got that right.. I separated the tube from the trans, then picked up the trans and removed it out through the door.... on an A i would have left it attached and slid it back as a unit using the fork lift... its fun breaking out the standard iron, straight screw-rodger and hammer now and then... a relief from the new crap..
Thanks

Marshall V. Daut · 11-19-2016, 03:59 PM

Transmission Update: I removed just the input shaft so far because as you may recall in one of my earlier posts, I mentioned that I thought the nose on the shaft might possibly be too short. So, I dug out a used shaft from my stash and compared the two. Yup! The one from my friend's transmission has a noticeably shorter snout. Check the attached photos. Could this short snout cause the transmission to lock up after the engine has run for a few seconds? But how? As I asked before, does this snout have to bottom out inside the flywheel, or else bad things happen? Obviously this snout will not bottom out. If this short snout is the cause, what is actually happening that causes the banging and then sudden engine lockdown? I see no scrape marks inside the front bearing retainer cone that would indicate that the shaft is moving forward and locking against the retainer housing.
Until I have settled this snout issue, the rest if the transmission will not come apart. I checked the gear action for smoothness, operation, broken teeth and any looseness. Everything seems fine.
Am I on the right track with this input shaft snout issue, or is this just a red herring masking the real cause?
Marshall

SteveB31 · 11-19-2016, 05:31 PM

How about the flywheel being surfaced too many times and the clutch disk springs hitting the flywheel mounting bolts?

tbirdtbird · 11-19-2016, 06:18 PM

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"does this snout have to bottom out inside the flywheel"

I vote no on that one.

The guts of the tranny are begging for an inspection. Given that particular car, all bets are off. Take no prisoners else you'll be in there for a 6th and 7th time. For a guy like you this is a quick job

Brian T · 11-19-2016, 08:23 PM

I agree, that shortened nose on that input shaft as been ground done for some reason that I cannot think why?, ( all though I have an idea) go for taking the transmission apart and lay out the parts with pictures so we all can see was misplaced. ----- Im with Dave on this one.

40 Deluxe · 11-19-2016, 08:38 PM

Marshall, did you put that new input bearing back in or did you chuck it? If it required a whack to rotate again, it may be mis-machined in some weird way such that the balls jam up after a few rotations.

tbirdtbird · 11-19-2016, 08:49 PM

or by now brinneled for sure

Mitch//pa · 11-19-2016, 09:07 PM

Any bearing that would have not spun freely i sure wouldn't have reused it... to stop a running engine i think youll find something significant... was there metal in the trans fluid??

J Franklin · 11-19-2016, 09:23 PM

All the length on the input shaft is not necessary as long as it fits in the pilot, different makers maybe saved a buck every thousand, especially during the war. I have refit used bearings, but only after careful investigation of their condition. I have had as good of luck as I care and have had bad stuff out of the box and from other countries. If you read the fine print on wartime boxes and those packaged a few years on they are mostly re-boxed from different manufactures, it was a scramble to keep up stocks.

larrys40 · 11-21-2016, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Any bearing that would have not spun freely i sure wouldn't have reused it... to stop a running engine i think youll find something significant... was there metal in the trans fluid??

I agree with Mitch .... And to address Steve Beckers clutch note, that would cause the clutch would just be stuck and not able to release .. Same if a spring popped out. Wouldn't cause an engine to lock up . (Unless you also had a trans gear/mesh issue as well which is highly unlikely).

This really isn't that difficult an issue but in all due respect Marshall you have really strung it out .... If the engine is out like you said and the trans either in or out, pull it if still in and in 15 minutes or less you can dissect the trans.
It's not the snub on the shaft . It looks fine and you would easily be able to test fit in the engine with clutch installed for issue. Just like lining up a clutch for install. I would be looking more at the trans case and components for anomalies.

Dissect the trans, analyize, reassemble, check clearances, fit, know it's good by standards and you should be set. Hopefully this isn't an open ended online murder mystery theater. LOL!!!

Good luck Marshall... you have to be getting closer!

Larry

Dick Steinkamp · 11-21-2016, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrys40

This really isn't that difficult an issue

That might depend if you are the one behind the keyboard giving advice or the one actually working to identify and resolve the problem.

George Miller · 11-21-2016, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

That might depend if you are the one behind the keyboard giving advice or the one actually working to identify and resolve the problem.

I could not agree more. Some times it not so easy to find a problem. I got stumped a couple of times on a easy problem. One time I was working on a car that every thing was right. But it would not run. It turned out the gas tank was full of water. How many times would you find that. Another time I had a truck that was running real bad. Turned out it had weak intake valve spring. I found the problems but it took longer than usual, because it was missing on more than one cylinder. The compression was good on all cylinders. So I don,t think we should judge others with out being there to see. It is very easy to get lead down the wrong path

Tony Hillyard · 11-21-2016, 02:36 PM

Interesting how clutch problems pop up and are often faulty parts.

Some years ago I bought a rare FIAT 500 open two seater at auction. It had a terrible transmission judder. I changed the drive shafts, dismantled the transmission, only to find in the end a new clutch had been fitted and the friction disc was ever so slightly off centre!

bbrocksr · 11-21-2016, 05:20 PM

Marshall is pretty sharp, I think he might be playing a game.
Bill

Larry Jenkins · 11-22-2016, 12:01 AM

Marshall doesn't "play games." He is a very knowledgeable person who isn't afraid to ask for help.

How many of us would do that? Be honest, now.. The length of this thread and his responses speak volumes about his attention to details and his objectivity.

I met him some years ago..

bbrocksr · 11-22-2016, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Jenkins

Marshall doesn't "play games." He is a very knowledgeable person who isn't afraid to ask for help.

How many of us would do that? Be honest, now.. The length of this thread and his responses speak volumes about his attention to details and his objectivity.

I met him some years ago..

I've never met Marshall but I've been reading his posts long enough to know that he is pretty sharp. I would be surprised if he didn't have this figured out.
Bill

bnchief · 11-22-2016, 08:11 PM

I wonder could a guy fasten the transmission on a stand and turn the input shaft with a drill to see what happens could be play and two gears trying to lock up, do not know just saying but it is rather curious.

Mikeinnj · 11-22-2016, 10:26 PM

“The word "frustration" is defined as the unfortunate tendency of lessening one's destiny. Rise up and take all frustrations away! Stop squeezing your dreams into a small size... You were not created to settle for less!”
― Israelmore Ayivor,

Tom Foster · 11-23-2016, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnchief

I wonder could a guy fasten the transmission on a stand and turn the input shaft with a drill to see what happens could be play and two gears trying to lock up, do not know just saying but it is rather curious.

I did meet Marshall years ago at Picacho Peak, and I knew him from his Ahooga posts. I'd be surprised if that's not the SECOND thing he tried. ;-)
Fearless

bnchief · 11-24-2016, 08:53 AM

I did not do that with my transmission just put in all new bearings and seals the thought of pulling an engine after building it and putting it in would keep me up at night.

Marshall V. Daut · 12-02-2016, 09:37 AM

FINAL UPDATE: It appears that all is finally right with this piece of ^%$&* Model A owned by an older friend. Rather than rehash all that I went through to reach this point, it'd be better for you to go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read my postings, as well as the suggestions made along the way. But before I supply what I THINK was the problem all along, let me say that I have NEVER experienced either of the two suspected culprits in any Model A I have worked on, either mine or others'. I would not have automatically pointed a finger at an obvious smoking gun and said "Aha! There it is!" - and I doubt whether many of you readers would have, either. I have been fighting unbelievable stupidity and gross incompetence on the part of a previous "mechanic" (and I use that word loosely), as well as my own stubbornness in repeatedly going down well-trodden repair paths I have been following for 50 years of a Model A association. Some of you guys were partially correct about the problem, some were not. I think in the final analysis, I may have been closer to the root of the cause in my initial posting's heading than I thought, especially after chasing my tail trying to fix problems that weren't problems. Anyway, there were a couple things going on in this horsesh*t engine and tranny at the same time that complicated the matter. They all disguised the real problem or sent me off in the wrong direction.
First, the loud tapping noise before the engine shut down. And recall that one of the last checks was with ONLY the engine running in the chassis without the transmission in place. That eliminated the transmission and isolated the engine. But did it really? I think there were two banging sounds going on at the same time: one inside the engine and one inside the tranny or bellhousing. The engine tapping was easy to solve. Although a friend with a valve seat grinding kit re-did the VERY deep seats in the engine block and trimmed the valve stems according, there was definitely lifter noise emanating from the original lifter area near the back of the block. Recall that a previous "mechanic" had cut the valve seats at an angle, which my friend straightened out. Two valve stems were even bent. Two new valves were installed and trued to the valve seats in the block. Still, tap, tap, tap was heard with the engine running alone, even though I checked the valve lash several times before buttoning everything up. The solution was to order and install adjustable lifters, which I wanted to do in the first place, but couldn't convince my penny-pinching friend to spring for the expense. I need to listen to my own gut feeling in such matters from now on and insist on what I KNOW is the best way to go in future repairs. It's going to be "MY way or the highway!" from now on and d*mn the expense. Don't like it? Find some other sucker to fix your junk cars! Anyway, installing the new lifters eliminated the engine tapping sound. One less problem to deal with, but obviously not the cause of the engine dramatically shutting down.
Now that the engine was out of the equation, attention fell upon the clutch and transmission. Reluctantly, I disassembled the transmission now that it was lying on the garage floor, not really expecting to find anything wrong inside. After all, the car had been driven to my house from Illinois and the owner had no complaint about the transmission's operation other than it leaked like a baby in diapers. All I did to the tranny during the initial stages of repair was to replace the two large main bearings and install a new gasket kit. Upon disassembly this time, however, I looked over the gears and removed the cluster gear. Inside the cluster gear I found two SHORT bearings instead of one long and one short one. Plus, the spacer was undersized in its outer diameter compared to one I specially removed from a spare transmission. I can't see how a thinner spacer would contribute to transmission problems, as the cluster gear rides on the roller bearings, not the spacer. But two short bearings MIGHT allow the cluster gear to flex as the bearings and spacer do not fill up the center of the cluster gear from end to end. Possibly there was just enough "give" when the bearings moved forward for the rear of the cluster gear to change its orientation. Both the reverse idler gear and the gear teeth at the rear of the cluster gear showed signs of clashing with metal peeled back on the teeth. Slight peel-back, but there had obviously been a clashing between the two gears. I wonder if installing the new main bearings changed the alignment between the cluster gear and the reverse idler, causing them to suddenly bind against each other and thereby stop the engine by locking up the engine? That would explain the damage to the teeth on both gears. Probably not, but to avoid future problems, I ground off the metal flashings from the gear teeth and installed two long and one short roller bearing inside the cluster gear, tossing the spacer altogether. I like the fact that now the entire length of the gear is supported, whereas the portion previously occupied by the spacer contributed nothing. The bearings now run from end to end inside the cluster gear. No other problems were noted inside the transmission, so it went back together.
Not fully believing this was the only problem, I then looked over the clutch area a little closer. The clutch disk that was in the car was glazed over and the grooves in the material had been ground away by use. I had pulled out a disk from my parts stash to replace this worn disk. This disk was in since I had gone through the engine. Looking it over after the pressure plate was removed, I noticed that the center hub stuck out way farther than on the disk I had removed. (Yes, the disk was oriented correctly. It cannot be installed flipped around!) Measuring the depths of the flywheel cuts, it was discovered that they were within tolerances = not too deep, not too shallow. BUT - I wondered if that extra long clutch disk snout was keeping the engine from turning over once it had run for a few seconds? Was it binding against the flywheel's center area? There were no obvious signs of rubbing, but recall that I could only get the engine to turn over once it locked up by pushing in the clutch. Possibly the longer hub of the disk combined with the misalignment of the cluster gear vis-à-vis the reverse idler gear were acting in tandem to lock up the engine? I have never heard of this. Have you???
At this point and after removing the engine a total of five times, I was NOT about to try just one or the other repair to gauge which (if either) was at fault. No, Sir-ee! I no longer CARED what the problem was. I just wanted this car done and out of my life. So, against my instincts to isolate a problem-maker, I made both suspected repairs: the old disk faces were sanded to remove the glaze and re-installed. Doing that teamed up with the cluster gear parts would hopefully solve the problem. With the engine and transmission re-installed, I crossed my fingers and started the engine. HURRAY! No knocking or tapping and NO locking up!!! So, the cause of the problem all along had been either the cluster gear misalignment or the odd clutch disk hub, or with my luck, a combination of both. As I say, I DON'T CARE!!! The problem is fixed.
Life, freezing temperatures, last minute house repairs before winter hits and a certain reluctance to lay myself open to further criticism/inneundo questioning my mechanical abilities for not IMMEDIATELY finding the cause of the engine stoppage have delayed this final response. Besides, the problem was only discovered and repaired two days ago during a brief warming up period in the weather. How I wish a pile of broken transmission teeth lying at the bottom of the case had been the obvious smoking gun cause of all this misery. Unfortunately, the cause (or causes) were more subtle and not ones I would have suspected right away. It took the process of elimination to finally track down the guilty party/parties. Whether some readers will believe it or not, the cause had to have been one or both of the repairs described in this posting. Nothing else done during the previous four teardowns fixed the locking up.
Problem solved and this old dog learned a new trick.
Marshall

gweilbaker · 12-02-2016, 10:22 AM

Well played sir. It's difficult to diagnose a problem when there is more than one and especially with previous unethical repairs. Hopefully your "friend" is grateful.

Big hammer · 12-02-2016, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Well played sir. It's difficult to diagnose a problem when there is more than one and especially with previous unethical repairs. Hopefully your "friend" is grateful.

BTT :-) congrats Marshall, we all new you would fix it! I hate to try and fix problems when people say don't want to spend much money :-(

George Miller · 12-02-2016, 01:09 PM

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Glade you got it fixed. Do you think maybe when you fixed the end play in the crank shaft, which I think you said was 1/8 helped to make that dang mess compress to the point to binding. Any way glade you got it fixed and will be able enjoy Christmas.

Marshall V. Daut · 12-02-2016, 01:29 PM

George -
No, I fixed the endplay during the 3rd or 4th removal and teardown. The engine still locked up afterwards. The endplay had to be fixed, of course, but I don't think that was the problem because nothing changed afterwards. That would have been WAAAAAAAAAAY too simple of a solution.

I hadn't yet been punished enough by the Model A gods.
Marshall

tbirdtbird · 12-02-2016, 01:35 PM

i never had any doubts

Tom Foster · 12-02-2016, 03:16 PM

Wow, thanks for relieving our suspense! I'm sure your friend has a great car now.

Ray in La Mesa · 12-02-2016, 03:38 PM

We deeply appreciate your perseverance in solving this problem, will ad it to the library of things seldom checked!

Dick Steinkamp · 12-02-2016, 03:45 PM

Congrats, Marshall, and thanks for the report!

I'm a relative A newbie, but I had an engine recently that I bought without hearing it run although the seller said it ran fine. During the tear down and inspection I found one valve that I could pull up when that lifter was on the heel of the cam and that I could turn easily when the valve was raised by the cam. I found that the seat was cut deep AND the valve face was cut quite a bit. This resulted in a lot of valve stem ground away in order to get the proper clearance. So much so that the spring retainer didn't have anything left on the valve stem to sit on. The engine probably ran but I imagine it made quite the clatter. Could this be what the problem was with your "tick"?

Tom Wesenberg · 12-02-2016, 04:04 PM

Look those two clutch disc over carefully.
Aren't they the style that has the problem with springs coming out of place?

Marshall V. Daut · 12-02-2016, 04:38 PM

Tom -
I've only had one disk with springs come apart on me and that was during a 1974 cross country drive in my 1928 Roadster. It happened while passing through Columbia, Missouri. BANG!!! It took a day and a lot of walking around town to locate a new disk, which also had the springs. I won't even go into the scary details of how I changed the disk with two borrowed bumper jacks! 'Beats me how I have been able to reach the venerable old age of 67 doing dumb stuff like that.

But I got back to Arizona o.k.
The only times I have been around Model A engines with the non-spring disk plates, there was clutch chatter. Replacing them with disks integrating the springs solved the problem every time. I think I'll risk only one disk failure in 50 years rather than live with clutch chatter. I'm sure others could relate different experiences.
Marshall

Herb Concord Ca · 12-02-2016, 05:17 PM

Marshall, what a story!!
I had faith that you would find the problem(s).
Herb Concord CA

Gold Digger · 12-02-2016, 09:57 PM

Bravo!! You stayed with the problem till you concurred it. I had a friend who is now passed on but if he couldn't fix a problem second time, carb for instance, he took a sledge hammer and beat it off. Then had to find another carb and usually a manifold. Patients and persistence will always pay off.

harleynut · 12-02-2016, 11:51 PM

Marshall, Just wanted to say thanks for posting the results. This is probably the longest thing I ever read on the Barn. Very interesting and informative. I give you credit. I probably would have been throwing wrenches down the driveway in frustration.

Marshall V. Daut · 12-03-2016, 09:48 AM

"I probably would have been throwing wrenches down the driveway in frustration."

I did, but nobody saw me do it.

As for the length of my post, check back to the early 2000's on "Ahooga". Some of my posts back then make this one look like an interoffice memo!

Marshall, the tipsy typist

George Miller · 12-03-2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

"I probably would have been throwing wrenches down the driveway in frustration."

I did, but nobody saw me do it.

As for the length of my post, check back to the early 2000's on "Ahooga". Some of my posts back then make this one look like an interoffice memo!

Marshall, the tipsy typist

Ya and You always liked good spelling and grammar. That kind of leaves me out, was not my best subject plus my mother was a school teacher. See never could understand why I did not get it.

Again glad you got it going.

C26Pinelake · 12-03-2016, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

FINAL UPDATE: It appears that all is finally right with this piece of ^%$&* Model A owned by an older friend. Rather than rehash all that I went through to reach this point, it'd be better for you to go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read my postings, as well as the suggestions made along the way. But before I supply what I THINK was the problem all along, let me say that I have NEVER experienced either of the two suspected culprits in any Model A I have worked on, either mine or others'. I would not have automatically pointed a finger at an obvious smoking gun and said "Aha! There it is!" - and I doubt whether many of you readers would have, either. I have been fighting unbelievable stupidity and gross incompetence on the part of a previous "mechanic" (and I use that word loosely), as well as my own stubbornness in repeatedly going down well-trodden repair paths I have been following for 50 years of a Model A association. Some of you guys were partially correct about the problem, some were not. I think in the final analysis, I may have been closer to the root of the cause in my initial posting's heading than I thought, especially after chasing my tail trying to fix problems that weren't problems. Anyway, there were a couple things going on in this horsesh*t engine and tranny at the same time that complicated the matter. They all disguised the real problem or sent me off in the wrong direction.
First, the loud tapping noise before the engine shut down. And recall that one of the last checks was with ONLY the engine running in the chassis without the transmission in place. That eliminated the transmission and isolated the engine. But did it really? I think there were two banging sounds going on at the same time: one inside the engine and one inside the tranny or bellhousing. The engine tapping was easy to solve. Although a friend with a valve seat grinding kit re-did the VERY deep seats in the engine block and trimmed the valve stems according, there was definitely lifter noise emanating from the original lifter area near the back of the block. Recall that a previous "mechanic" had cut the valve seats at an angle, which my friend straightened out. Two valve stems were even bent. Two new valves were installed and trued to the valve seats in the block. Still, tap, tap, tap was heard with the engine running alone, even though I checked the valve lash several times before buttoning everything up. The solution was to order and install adjustable lifters, which I wanted to do in the first place, but couldn't convince my penny-pinching friend to spring for the expense. I need to listen to my own gut feeling in such matters from now on and insist on what I KNOW is the best way to go in future repairs. It's going to be "MY way or the highway!" from now on and d*mn the expense. Don't like it? Find some other sucker to fix your junk cars! Anyway, installing the new lifters eliminated the engine tapping sound. One less problem to deal with, but obviously not the cause of the engine dramatically shutting down.
Now that the engine was out of the equation, attention fell upon the clutch and transmission. Reluctantly, I disassembled the transmission now that it was lying on the garage floor, not really expecting to find anything wrong inside. After all, the car had been driven to my house from Illinois and the owner had no complaint about the transmission's operation other than it leaked like a baby in diapers. All I did to the tranny during the initial stages of repair was to replace the two large main bearings and install a new gasket kit. Upon disassembly this time, however, I looked over the gears and removed the cluster gear. Inside the cluster gear I found two SHORT bearings instead of one long and one short one. Plus, the spacer was undersized in its outer diameter compared to one I specially removed from a spare transmission. I can't see how a thinner spacer would contribute to transmission problems, as the cluster gear rides on the roller bearings, not the spacer. But two short bearings MIGHT allow the cluster gear to flex as the bearings and spacer do not fill up the center of the cluster gear from end to end. Possibly there was just enough "give" when the bearings moved forward for the rear of the cluster gear to change its orientation. Both the reverse idler gear and the gear teeth at the rear of the cluster gear showed signs of clashing with metal peeled back on the teeth. Slight peel-back, but there had obviously been a clashing between the two gears. I wonder if installing the new main bearings changed the alignment between the cluster gear and the reverse idler, causing them to suddenly bind against each other and thereby stop the engine by locking up the engine? That would explain the damage to the teeth on both gears. Probably not, but to avoid future problems, I ground off the metal flashings from the gear teeth and installed two long and one short roller bearing inside the cluster gear, tossing the spacer altogether. I like the fact that now the entire length of the gear is supported, whereas the portion previously occupied by the spacer contributed nothing. The bearings now run from end to end inside the cluster gear. No other problems were noted inside the transmission, so it went back together.
Not fully believing this was the only problem, I then looked over the clutch area a little closer. The clutch disk that was in the car was glazed over and the grooves in the material had been ground away by use. I had pulled out a disk from my parts stash to replace this worn disk. This disk was in since I had gone through the engine. Looking it over after the pressure plate was removed, I noticed that the center hub stuck out way farther than on the disk I had removed. (Yes, the disk was oriented correctly. It cannot be installed flipped around!) Measuring the depths of the flywheel cuts, it was discovered that they were within tolerances = not too deep, not too shallow. BUT - I wondered if that extra long clutch disk snout was keeping the engine from turning over once it had run for a few seconds? Was it binding against the flywheel's center area? There were no obvious signs of rubbing, but recall that I could only get the engine to turn over once it locked up by pushing in the clutch. Possibly the longer hub of the disk combined with the misalignment of the cluster gear vis-à-vis the reverse idler gear were acting in tandem to lock up the engine? I have never heard of this. Have you???
At this point and after removing the engine a total of five times, I was NOT about to try just one or the other repair to gauge which (if either) was at fault. No, Sir-ee! I no longer CARED what the problem was. I just wanted this car done and out of my life. So, against my instincts to isolate a problem-maker, I made both suspected repairs: the old disk faces were sanded to remove the glaze and re-installed. Doing that teamed up with the cluster gear parts would hopefully solve the problem. With the engine and transmission re-installed, I crossed my fingers and started the engine. HURRAY! No knocking or tapping and NO locking up!!! So, the cause of the problem all along had been either the cluster gear misalignment or the odd clutch disk hub, or with my luck, a combination of both. As I say, I DON'T CARE!!! The problem is fixed.
Life, freezing temperatures, last minute house repairs before winter hits and a certain reluctance to lay myself open to further criticism/inneundo questioning my mechanical abilities for not IMMEDIATELY finding the cause of the engine stoppage have delayed this final response. Besides, the problem was only discovered and repaired two days ago during a brief warming up period in the weather. How I wish a pile of broken transmission teeth lying at the bottom of the case had been the obvious smoking gun cause of all this misery. Unfortunately, the cause (or causes) were more subtle and not ones I would have suspected right away. It took the process of elimination to finally track down the guilty party/parties. Whether some readers will believe it or not, the cause had to have been one or both of the repairs described in this posting. Nothing else done during the previous four teardowns fixed the locking up.
Problem solved and this old dog learned a new trick.
Marshall

Just glad I was not the customer paying by the hour well this scenario was playing out! Model A Fords are not supposed to be this complicated. Wayne.

Marshall V. Daut · 12-03-2016, 11:08 AM

George -
So much for heredity! Grammar didn't pass through the genes to you? Tsk, tsk, tsk...
M.

Larry Jenkins · 12-03-2016, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forever4

I remember once long ago offering to buy you a big box of punctuation and line-feeds for Christmas.

I better start shopping again.

Master of the run-on sentencing.

Very hard to read. My guide is a break after each singular subject. Even then, I cheat for clarity and easy to read.

tbirdtbird · 12-03-2016, 09:13 PM

"Master of the run-on sentencing."

maybe.
but we have another poster here who takes the award hands down. His posts are very difficult to read

HammerSaw · 12-10-2016, 10:23 PM

One of your starter bolts may be to long and if it is it will hit the flywheel.
When I took my engine apart I found marks on the front of my flywheel from a long bold that someone used.

tbirdtbird · 12-10-2016, 11:50 PM

the problem has been solved
see #103

11-08-2016, 06:22 PM	#2
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! stock clutch and PP? sounds like PP binding on BH somehow or disk somehow. I would not put the engine back in the car until I had mounted the engine, FW housing, BH, PP on an engine stand and ran it that way, with the disc NOT installed and see what happens. If it does the same thing change out the PP and disk for another set and see what happens Give that disk a good look-see 'cause there hafta be witness marks on it somewhere No burrs/defects inside the FWH or BH? It's gonna end up being something really stupid but you know that __________________ '31 180A Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-08-2016 at 06:30 PM.

11-08-2016, 06:28 PM	#3
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! While you are taking everything apart, pull the trans cover, (tower) off and take a peek. Just might be the input shaft locked up..

11-08-2016, 06:35 PM	#4
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! X2 on post 3 __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

11-08-2016, 06:41 PM	#5
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Sounds like something in the transmission. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

11-08-2016, 06:55 PM	#6
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Marshall I think you and I have been led down the garden path... I think the tranny guys are onto something. Same tranny as before? Anyone take tower off and reinstall it such that it is in two gears at once? Etc? "The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up." Whatever the BANG was surely indicates some damage somewhere __________________ '31 180A

11-08-2016, 05:41 PM	#1
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Bear with me on this one. It takes some background exposition before I get around to describing what is happening and what I suspect may be the problem. I am fixing a friend's Model A engine (cylinder boring, new pistons & rings, valve job, seating the bearings with Time Saver, etc.). Everything went back together fine, good compression. Cranks turns over with proper resistance. We're good to go. The FIRST time I re-installed the engine, it started, but had a strong tapping noise at the back of the engine for about 20 seconds before the engine let out a metallic "BANG!" and locked up. "Oh, great! The bearings have seized or the crankshaft snapped in two", I thought. 'Couldn't budge the engine with the starter or hand crank. Out came the engine for the SECOND time. It gets disassembled and all bearings checked. All are still o.k. The crank is still in one piece. The engine goes back together carefully again and is installed for the SECOND time. Everything is hooked up and bolted together. The starter rod is depressed and only clunking happens. Clunk, clunk, clunk. The crank will not turn. The engine will not turn over no matter what I do, even jumping it with a 12 volt battery. Now I'm just beginning to get pssed. This is not my first rodeo. I have probably gone through 30-40 Model A and T engines in my time. So I KNOW I am putting this thing back together properly with correct clearances. O.K. Out comes the engine for the THIRD time and is disassembled again. Still nothing wrong. All clearances are correct and I can turn the crank over via the flywheel on the engine stand. I re-assemble the engine minus the transmission sitting on the garage floor and hook up the starter this time to test whether the engine will turn over before re-installing it. Hurray! The crank turns over, not fast, but it does turn over! It's a tight engine with new rings, so it shouldn't spin TOO easily. The bellhousing and tranny are re-bolted to the engine and the whole mess goes back into the car for the THIRD time. I'm certain whatever was wrong somehow magically got fixed and all will work properly. Everything is bolted back together and hooked up again for a starter test. Clunk, clunk, clunk!!! No spinning. Now I'm REALLY pssed and am considering going to the dark side and collecting Chevies instead of antique Fords. A few minutes ago, I was sitting on the front seat of the car in a deep state of depression and frustration over this affair, when I decide to push in the clutch and try the starter. Spin, spin, spin!!! VERY fast, much faster than when the engine was on the garage floor. What the ---???? I removed the inspection plate over the clutch and looked inside with a flashlight. The pressure plate fingers seem a little low, but the adjusting arm brought the throwout bearing within correct clearance. I try the engine again with the clutch pedal up, and the engine goes clunk, clunk, clunk. It will not turn over until I depress the clutch pedal. As I let the pedal out while the engine is spinning, the engine locks up. So, finally my question. What the you-know-what is happening here? The springs are still in the clutch disk and it is installed correctly. Was that loud metallic bang I heard just before the engine locked up the first time the clutch committing suicide? I have only had to replace one or two really badly slipping or failed clutches in a Model A in 50 years. So this is a new problem for me. What do you clutch guys say? I know the engine will have to come out for the FOURTH time, but I want to have a good idea what to look for in the clutch area. By the way, when the engine won't spin, the car does not try to lurch move forward = it is not in gear. I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral. Thanks in advance. Marshall, the Frustrated One Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 11-08-2016 at 06:04 PM.

11-08-2016, 08:06 PM	#7
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! " I can roll the car with the shifter in neutral." I am thinking as long as the engine is not running and transmission is locked between gears other than 3rd the car would roll. __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

11-08-2016, 08:36 PM	#8
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,173	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Push down the clutch with the engine not running and try moving the car in gear----the fact that the engine cranks good with the clutch pushed down means the clutch is working----i agree that most likely in trans----

11-08-2016, 09:45 PM	#9
DougT Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 53	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! The fact that ther car rolls in neutral and the engine spins with the clutch in limits the problem to the input shaft or countershaft. Something could have been riding around in the trans and never caused a problem until the trans got jiggled around during the removal and reinstall. The bang was something getting lodged somewhere.

11-08-2016, 10:45 PM	#11
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,557	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! I vote with the tranny guys. It may have broken something because it was in two gears at once and you may not have to be in neutral to push it back and forth. Pull the tower and have friends help you to watch the gears while you move the car in and out of gears, all gears. Odds are the tranny needs a serious rebuild by now. But first, remove the tower and check, It may be that the transmission is okay and the U-joint has it all locked up. That may have been your "clunk."

11-09-2016, 10:49 AM	#12
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Marshall, where are U? __________________ '31 180A

11-09-2016, 11:14 AM	#13
gweilbaker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lindenhurst, IL Posts: 792	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! He's elbow deep into this dilemma

11-10-2016, 08:59 AM	#14
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Marshall I'm not saying this is it as I think your symptom would be different but I recently had a repro clutch plate and pressure plate have a size issue with each other. The inner part of the spring plate on the clutch was slightly larger than the inner circle of the pressure plate and the clutch would not release as the clutch disk even though installed correctly and fingers set would not release . In this case it would not lock up but the clutch would not release . I feel you have a transmission issue and possibly a broken tooth or foreign matter in your trans that may be locking up thh input shaft. Like the other guys said can you pull the trans top ( while pulling make sure your forks were aligned if previously off ) and check things out . I consider myself schooled more than 98 percent of many but have had things happen as well like the clutch disk I described above. Remember not to start with trans top off!!! I know you know but just a friendly reminder in your desperation and frustration . All the best Larry Shepard

11-10-2016, 09:34 AM	#15
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! UPDATE: To all who have given excellent suggestions: Thank you for taking the time to respond with the benefit of your experience. I pulled the engine yesterday afternoon for the FOURTH time in 10 days and I think I have isolated the problem that is causing the engine to lock up. Although this has for certain locked up the engine, I need to know the why this happened before I put everything back together again and install the power plant in the chassis. Could it happen again for no reason? I will be addressing that today and tomorrow. I prefer not to reveal the suspected cause until I have been able to start the engine and not have it bang and lock up again. Remember: the engine turned over fine and started before it suddenly locked up last week. Something caused the part to fail that did the locking. I don't want to give out the wrong answer if this part fails again, so please be patient for the answer until probably tomorrow evening. Not much time can be stolen away from our front porch repair while the weather is still good. Otherwise, I'd have the whole shooting match back together and running late this afternoon. Stay tuned... Marshall

11-10-2016, 10:18 AM	#16
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Sounds great Marshall . I have had more clutch issues with various parts ( mostly aftermarket or repro ) this last year than the last 10 before Unbelievable !!! Hopefully you have it licked !! Larry Shepard

11-10-2016, 10:23 AM	#17
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! In another life Marshall wrote suspense thriller screenplays __________________ '31 180A

11-10-2016, 12:35 PM	#18
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! How about Rippley's Believe it or not?

11-10-2016, 01:18 PM	#19
quickchange Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Nelson. New Zealand Posts: 2,010	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Last week a friend arrived with his A , wanted new gears fitted as his where noisy & had sold the vehicle , HE pulled the engine & trans , Fitted new trans, decided too inspect the clutch , fitted new plate, asked if flywheel bolts should have a washer under the heads , answer no , but should have the metal plate, just take one fro the spares, he did, fitted all back in vehicle , hit the started & it goes clonk , no turn over, He hops in a plane & goes home, frustrated as hell , ( he is a bean counter ) I pull all apart , see the problem, SOME ONE AT SOME TIME USED TORQUE TUBE BOLTS to bolt flywheel on , THESE ARE TOO LONG , hit rear main, fitted correct bolts , installed back in the 4 door , all good , Just be aware that bits got changed over the years , Marshall , could this be an area too check on , Derek in a damp but mild NZ spring is here & lawns need cutting each week,

11-11-2016, 04:50 PM	#20
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! 'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days. Marshall

11-11-2016, 05:22 PM	#22
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Quick answer to "justold" - Yes, a new pilot bearing was installed. Marshall

11-12-2016, 08:52 AM	#24
V4F Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: ca. Posts: 2,522	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! maybe flywheel bolts hitting (as the head is to thick) . the disc does not like thick flywheel bolts __________________ V4f

11-12-2016, 09:56 AM	#25
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Until I can post a more complete follow-up and to avoid wasting people's time making engine-related suggestions, I will reveal here and now that it was a transmission-related cause of locking up. I had gone through the engine three times after three subsequent engine removals, but couldn't really find a smoking gun for the banging and subsequent engine lock up. I, too, had thought it must be the engine because it had taken 96% of time and effort in this project. It REALLY needed a great deal of help. I removed a shim or two from the rods and mains to dial in the clearances even better after its short idling time, but seized bearings was not the problem. The tranny guys were right on the mark. And I can also tell you that this problem has NEVER popped up in all my 50+ years messing around with Model A's! As I wrote in this posting's title, it's a new one on me. More tomorrow night...hopefully. Marshall

11-12-2016, 05:42 PM	#26
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Return tomorrow for the next exciting chapter of "As the Crankshaft Turns"! Or in this case "doesn't turn"! Will Marshall finally get this Model A on the road, and out of his hair?Will he have to pull the engine out of the car again? (oh! The humanity!) Will he find the quarter that fell out of his pant's pocket in the transmission? Will little Timmy be able to play the piano again after his tragic run-in with Aunt Matilda's pet armadillo?? Tune in tomorrow, for the next exciting chapter of... "As the Crankshaft (hopefully) Turns"!

11-12-2016, 06:50 PM	#27
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Art's description is considerably more interesting than the reality show I've been living with this %$&^% car!!! "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a Model A? The Shadow knows!" Or, " Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-time, same Bat-channel." Marshall, cousin of Ming the Merciless (Anyone remember him?)

11-12-2016, 08:39 PM	#28
jb-ob Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 642	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! 'Ming the Merciless' and the Clay People with Flash Gordon.....remember the rocket with a sparkler in the back gliding down a string ?? "Stay Tuned Kiddies for Another Thrill Packed Episode of Marshall's Maddening Model 'A'....... Currently 4 - zip Good Luck to our Super Hero

11-13-2016, 12:06 AM	#29
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! "jb-ob" - BINGO!!! You got it! Marshall

11-13-2016, 12:21 AM	#30
Larry Jenkins BANNED Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: East Central Iowa Posts: 1,275	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! In spite of all the fun jabs and one little "dumb ass" one, how many of us would ask for that kind of help from one who is pretty knowledgeable? ... __________________ Good enough.. Isn't.

11-13-2016, 09:48 PM	#32
jb-ob Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 642	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! OK Marshall, time is up ! Went through enough suspense last week, what's up ??? No extra innings or over time ! The American Public (Ford Barn) has a right to know ! You stringing us along or what ?? And where is my Model A News ?? JB

11-13-2016, 09:57 PM	#33
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! O.K. Enough suspense. It's time to reveal the cause of my problem cited in the initial posting on the first page of this thread. I did not post the answer before now because I didn't want to prematurely broadcast what I had found - only to get another shock when it happened again after announcing to the world the problem. Even though I am not 100% ready, it's not fair to the "Fordbarn" readers to keep dragging this thing out. The reason for the engine locking up and refusing to turn over has been discovered and repaired. But it's not as simple as that. The engine and transmission have been re-installed into the car for the fourth time, but not started due to other time constraints. The starter now turns the engine over at a good clip, even without depressing the clutch (read my postings in this thread to get up to speed on the problem and subsequent dribblings of information). But therein lies the rub! Recall that before I first started the engine two weeks ago, I could hand crank it and the starter had no trouble turning over the engine enough to start it. In other words, the situation is exactly the same now as then. Gulp! I will not know if I actually fixed the problem until the engine is started again tomorrow. What went wrong two weeks ago happened within 20 seconds of the engine starting. If after finding the problem and making the repair, the engine bangs and locks up again, I will be completely frazzled. But I know most of you are more interested in learning the cause of the problem with my engine. Well, it turned out not to be in the engine after all. Maybe I should have known that, but this engine was possibly THE worst "rebuilt" Model A engine I have ever seen. I'm sure my older friend, who has owned this car since 1970, sought out the cheapest repair job he could find 30 years ago and paid commensurately. Yeah, he's that kind of Model A owner. Anyway, in my own defense for not suspecting the guilty party at first, this engine needed everything to make it usable, absorbing 96% of my time with this project. It was only natural to assume that my life-saving efforts to resuscitate a corpse went haywire somewhere. A short list of my friend's engine problems before repairs included: (1) .060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders (2) Pistons had been knurled 360 degrees on the entire skirt surface up to the ring grooves to compensate for being undersized (3) 0.035 piston ring end gaps because the rings were wrong (4) The valve seats had been cut at an angle, presumably because the drill with seat grinding bit had been hand-held instead of mounted on an arbor in the valve guide bore (5) The rear main bearing's oil drain tube was lying at the bottom of the pan (6) Numerous chips in the Babbitt, both mains and rods (7) The front Babbitt thrust surface on the rear main bearing saddle was worn to almost nothing and the rear thrust surface had broken off in a half-moon chunk and was lying next to the drain tube in the bottom of the oil pan = 0.040" crankshaft end play (8) Main bearings so were loose that at least eight shims were removed from the mains alone! (9) Deep groove worn in the flywheel surface from clutch disk rivets (10) Clutch fingers were more than 1" from the top surface instead of the required 5/8" to 11/16" (11) Shot throwout and pilot bearings Well, you get the idea. There's more, but why bother? So, my first thought when the engine started banging and then seized was that I had scrwed something up inside the engine. That's why my focus fell on the engine instead of the real culprit = the transmission. Duh on me! Those who suggested the transmission was at fault were partially correct. It wasn't the transmission per se; actually, it was the NEW front bearing on the input shaft. Within 10 minutes of posting this problem here, Larry Brumfield emailed me off-line and nailed the problem. Others were on the right track, but no one actually stated the front bearing and input shaft specifically. Background: I had replaced both main transmission bearings because lube was almost flowing out of both ends of the case. I have done this job 100 times before. I know the front bearing was not binding and locking in the transmission case after I had installed it because upon the initial power plant installation after rebuilding the engine, the engine could be easily hand cranked. Only AFTER the engine ran for a few seconds did it lock up. I am fearful it will do the same thing this time. See my dilemma? WHAT ON EARTH would have caused the input shaft to seize so quickly and firmly with a new bearing? The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective. The baffle plate is oriented correctly behind the bearing. I will finish putting the external parts on the engine tomorrow and start it up. Hopefully the transmission locking up was just a fluke. But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!! The final piece of the puzzle will be posted tomorrow night. Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel. Marshall Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 11-14-2016 at 08:06 AM.*

11-13-2016, 10:17 PM	#34
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! "The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective" So how do you have any idea that this is what locked up? The engine sounds like it was pure junk. .060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders? Really? Someone needs to have their tools taken away. Surely it is not possible that you did not dial in the FW housing..........If the FW housing angle were bad enough I can see the input shaft being bound up. Or is everything so chewed up back there that this cannot be properly done. How do we even know if the crank is setting in its correct centers? With pistons fit like that then I would say all bets are off to the actual health of the motor at any point in time regardless of the effort you put into it....who knows what else is wrong that you haven't even found yet __________________ '31 180A Last edited by tbirdtbird; 11-13-2016 at 10:26 PM.

11-13-2016, 10:25 PM	#35
jb-ob Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 642	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Geese, a grenade motor and transmission.....What could possibly go wrong??? I'll be back for another installment tomorrow Mister Wizard. JB

11-13-2016, 10:28 PM	#37
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! Marshall I have great respect for your work. You are one of the few knowldgeable posters here that doesn't just run off at the mouth. But I have to wonder if the root cause of the problem has been found, unless there is more you are not telling __________________ '31 180A

11-13-2016, 10:30 PM	#38
daveymc29 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Danville, CA Posts: 1,557	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!! Well that's what the guy said when his horse died. "I have never had this happen to me before." lan't it?

11-13-2016, 11:10 PM	#39
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,138	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! "tbirdtbird" - Thank you for the kind words. Very humbling... In regards to the transmission, upon removal from the case, the bearing would not turn on the input shaft until I tapped it downward, as explained in my recent post. Something had acted upon it to force the bearing and thrust plate together and bind against the shaft's stop rim. Upon reassembly, everything tested o.k. I sure hope there isn't something else wrong in the tranny. You bring up a point that has been nagging me since Thursday: did I actually fix the problem, or was there something else I missed inside the transmission? I can't imagine what. A Model A transmission is such a simple animal and almost bulletproof when assembling. Other than mistakenly swapping the short and long bearings inside the cluster gear, I don't think the Model A transmission can be put back together improperly, yet still function. It had worked fine (except for the lube hemorrhaging) until the new main bearings were installed. I guess we'll have to wait until later tomorrow to see if the problem is fixed. Marshall

11-13-2016, 11:24 PM	#40
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!! I'd be pulling the shift tower and double check the shift forks to be sure they are both engaged in the grooves of the gears. This is one thing I'm very careful about because of what can happen when two gears slide into mesh at the same time. If the tranny is on the bench this is easy to assemble, but with the tranny in the car I like to get down and look through the crack as I lower the tower into place. From the work done on the engine, it would be worth it just to look inside the tranny anyway.