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07-26-2014, 03:44 PM | #1 |
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Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Comments appear here to the effect that many modern restorers lack ingenuity, a willingness to rebuild original parts, the craftsmanship of yore, etc.
I think these can be serious misjudgments, besides being questionable stereotypes of thousands of restorers. These conclusions presume that the average restorer has access and skills to numerous expensive tools such as welding equipment, lathes, arbor presses, etc. And the conclusions ignore that the cars were built originally and serviced after sale with specialized equipment. As far as the contentions that the cars were the product of long-lost craftsmanship, it should also be recalled that most assembly line workers were performing narrow tasks requiring minimal skill, under close supervision, using quality parts. If a part didn't fit, just pick another one. And the workers did the same tasks, day after week after month. All in all, I think the amazing part is that we keep these crates running at all to some level of satisfaction, ineptness and repro parts notwithstanding. |
07-26-2014, 06:21 PM | #2 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Interesting, and yes likely controversial. I do not know how long you have been in the Model-A hobby but it seems like before someone can offer an opinion on this on first-hand knowledge (...as opposed to hearsay) they really need to be grounded in the hobby for a substantial length of time (like 30-40 years) where they have the ability to give an opinion based on their experiences. Does that seem plausible?
While on the topic though, your presumptions are correct but are you comparing parts changing to actual restoration? |
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07-26-2014, 07:01 PM | #3 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I've been a "car guy" since the mid fifties and got into Model A's 20 or 25 years ago. Too, I've been in the hot rod industry since 1961 and written a lot of automotive tech articles. I would challenge your assumption that one has to be a Model A guy for 30 or 40 years before being able to offer an opinion. I'm very careful to post only on the subjects that I have intimate knowledge of and hands on experience. FYI, properly installed Float-A-Motor mounts are an improvement. By the same token they are not a panacea for a crappy engine. If you aren't afraid to play with the settings, friction shocks are an economical alternative to the high dollar stock rebuilds.
Yes, I know that this is a restoration oriented website. By the same token, there were countless aftermarket accessories offered for the A before the B was introduced in the fall of 1931. Too, a lot of these were actually offered by dealers with the blessing of the factory. The Model A hobby (or better yet restoration/aftermarket industry) has room for many factions. \
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07-26-2014, 07:32 PM | #4 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
"I'm very careful to post only on the subjects that I have intimate knowledge of and hands on experience."
We appreciate that indeed. However that is not the universal scenario on this forum. Some of the responses from some posters are so far off the mark as to not even be funny. My personal concern is that as a forum we are trying hard to help ppl with their cars, whether experienced or not. The pros on here are banging away at their keyboards trying to get good solid info out there. Remembering of course that this forum will be searched for years to come by newcomers and others and as such they may not recognize crappy info. Of course this is the predicament of any forum. As an example, there was a responding poster who failed to understand the importance of the match up of the pilot bearing in the flywheel and the front machined stub of the tranny input shaft as a source of noise and other problems. It calls into question the mechanical ability of the poster in any way; some are just good memorizers of the parts differences from year to year and do not actually understand their function on a very basic mechanical level. Another example, whenever the pros post on the easiest way to unstick a frozen clutch disc from a pressure plate we get a barrage of inexperienced ppl screaming how dangerous this is. Yrs ago I actually spoke to a Model A dude on the phone explaining to him how to do this and he accused me of being reckless, dangerous, and a menance to society, and that he ALWAYS removes the engine from the car to solve this problem. I had all I could do to not laugh out loud since he made his job 8,000% more difficult than it had to be. And no amount of explanation was going to convince him since he lacked any true mechanical understanding of what he was doing. He was just a bolt turner. Like Vanna, she is just a letter turner. Another example; friends bought a nice '62 Jeep station wagon only to look under the hood and discover that the PO used garden hose instead of regulation heater hose. Really now.... You cannot compare to modern cars since with all the computerized crap all bets are off for most any backyard mechanic. In that vein, I always find myself wondering how the dickens kids are supposed to learn cars these days since they are all computerized junk heaps, and even the dealer mechanics are now just parts changers, just change out whatever the computer tells you. Who needs to understand what the part actually does anyway OK, rant over
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'31 180A Last edited by tbirdtbird; 07-27-2014 at 12:09 AM. |
07-26-2014, 07:41 PM | #5 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I don't know it all by no means but 43 years ago I had my first model A 1929 town sedan. When I got the car was all in pieces and I only had a service bultin book to help me put it togehter and I was 15 with nobody to help me with it. It took a couple of years but it was together and ran great.
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07-26-2014, 11:33 PM | #6 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
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I know of an owner of several Model A's that has 60+ years of Model A experience & is considered to be VERY knowledgeable, BUT, he insists that you have to remove the rear wheels, in order to adjust the rear brakes????????????????? Bill W.
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07-27-2014, 12:18 AM | #7 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
you do? shucks....
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07-27-2014, 12:22 AM | #8 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I think I do damn well for someone that never worked on cars before he bought his first A. The key is to watch and learn from others that have and ask questions.
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07-27-2014, 12:35 AM | #9 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I had a 1928 Roadster when I was in High School. I sold it after WW2 began, cars were scarce, got a good price, joined the Navy.
In 1962, when living in Sacramento, CA , I purchased a 31 Deluxe Coupe. I had 2 children and a wife to support so I could not afford to hire work done, so I took things apart, figured out how they worked, repaired or replaced with better parts; in those days you could find NOS parts at swap meets. Joined MAFCA and a local club, asked lots of questions. The family helped me wet sand the body and I painted the 31 in my driveway with Lacquer paint. I also had a neighbor who was in his 60's, had been a mechanic most of his life, he showed me how to inspect bearings and races, adjust valves, set up mechanical brakes, etc.; sure was very helpful and the best part: I learned !!!!! how to maintain a "A". There is great satisfaction when the A goes down the road, running good, and you know you did the work. Wish I was young again and could look forward to restoring more A's, and meeting new people with the same interest. It is the people that make this such a great hobby. Ron Rude |
07-27-2014, 02:06 AM | #10 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Hi ericr,
I think you presented some very intelligent & interesting comments on the subject of "skills". & today's Model A owners. Appears that in the 1930's, it was still not too difficult for many to understand almost everything about the basics of construction, mechanics, medicine, dentistry, law, sports, farming, banking, etc.; however, today, just outer-space, & wireless devices can be a difficult single mental challenge for one individual. I think I understand all of the above sincere comments & opinions which one can truly admire; and as hinted throughout, it may be a good idea for us to remember that this Model A stuff is a hobby where one should be having fun working on Model A's. As far as "skills", some of us may have witnessed, for example, giving an 18 year old his first shotgun, immediately bringing him to a skeet range, & observe where he makes 25 old fart "expert" hunters from ages 45 to 75 look retarded when they shoot skeet. Many have witnessed the same with youngsters in carpenter work, mechanic work, body work, professional work, or whatever, where with very little directions & instructions given, these 18 year olds just had it. But, on the other hand, for example, if one takes this same 18 year old skeet shooter to the wilderness & one asks him to bring back a legal limit on ducks, rabbits, deer, doves, quail, snipe, and squirrels, the 18 year old will learn quickly that the old fart hunters & skeet shooters, with years of hunting experience, were not stupid after experiencing hunting for years -- sometimes experience helps. Like many controversial subjects, I have no doubt that we have many intelligent people buying their first Model A on this Forum, & when they ask questions, they are by no means stupid; but are just uninformed about a type of vintage mechanics that is rarely seen today & has been superseded with more modern technology. In my opinion, in not knowing who is asking the questions, or the person's "skill" level, the best we can do is tell them our sincere past experiences that we think will be helpful, & hope that we not only helped them; but, also tried to make them happy with our answers. |
07-27-2014, 06:12 AM | #11 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Yes, I agree with the above opinions and comments. Bringing this back full-circle, the interpretation I read of the OP's post where he questions the validity of a statement made about the mechanical skills and mechanical aptitude of a Model-A hobbyist was greater some 30-40 years ago vs. the average capability & mechanical aptitude of the Model-A hobbyist in 2014.
I think the average mechanical ability & mechanical aptitude of society as a whole was much greater some 3 - 4 decades ago. Mechanical reasoning, repairing, & restoration come from constant doing of tasks where 'motor skills' (brain to hand coordination) are exercised on a frequent basis. In our "throw it away when it breaks" society, folks do not see the need to work with their hands to troubleshoot and repair something. Just go to the store and buy a new one to replace it! Same applies to Model-A hobbyists, just buy a reproduction one to replace the broken original part. Then, factor in how computers do the troubleshooting or diagnostic brainwork for many of our daily tasks these days. That is why I say many folks in society no longer use their brain/hands for mechanical tasks today vs. 30 - 40 years ago? I feel these lack of abilities sadly spill over into our hobby, and 'one can only imagine what the next generation's skills will be like! |
07-27-2014, 06:12 AM | #12 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
First check my aviator.I only comment re, repair or restoration when I have been there and done that. Re. tbirdtbird - in the modern day repair shop, that is the difference between a MECHANIC and a TECHNICIAN (test = replace). Unfortunately, with all the electronics, the MECHANIC is surely retreating to the past.
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07-27-2014, 09:53 AM | #13 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I like Mr. Brent's yesteryear "brain to hand" coordination comment.
This reminds me of in my father's business years ago in our rural area, where in the late 1940's & 1950's we cashed lots of "old age" checks where seniors would endorse their "old age" pension checks of $50.00 per month to pay monthly bills. Many born in the 1800's only went to the 3rd grade or so, in a one room schoolhouse; but had this "brain to hand" coordination where most of their beautiful signatures could rival that of John Handcock's signature on the Declaration of Independence. When compared to the chicken scratch signatures we see today from12th grade & college graduates, who just as soon sign their names with an "X", just like the few years ago who never went to school, maybe we lost some of this "brain to hand" coordination. Moral of the Story: FWIW: If you ever need delicate "brain to hand" coordination like that of a cardiologist to do your delicate heart surgery, & this guy writes you a prescription prior to surgery, the last thing an observant person want's to do is look at this doctor's "brain to hand" coordination signature on the prescription -- it can really scare the hell out of anyone who fully understands "brain to hand" coordination. Heart surgery & repairing Model A parts have a lot in common. LOL Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 07-27-2014 at 09:57 AM. Reason: typo |
07-27-2014, 10:32 AM | #14 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
In my opinion, most of the people that have Model A's and other older cars now are of era that we repaired our own cars and learned a lot from the school of hard knocks.Try to repair anything built in the last twenty years and you cannot do it due to the way they are manufactured or engineered and must throw away the item.Have had to throw away several items as there are no repair parts, parts no longer made to fit an item etc..Many times, if I had a small metal lathe, milling machine, could make the part and be back in business.Look at electronics, you can no longer fix your TV like in the older days when you pulled the tubes and tested them to fix most of the problems.Now when they fail, get a new one and the hazardous materials inside the old electronics go into the land fill.How many people today even know what an oscilloscope is or how to use it.Was an Electronics technician in the Navy so had to repair everything electronic when it broke and was at sea.After leaving the Navy, got my degree in Electrical Engineering and worked at designing computers and chipsand tests for the next 40 plus years.
When I went to school back in the dark ages, you had mechanical drawing in the 7th and 8th grades along with wood shop or could go into metal shop in the 9th as an option.This taught the students how to visualize an item and understand things mechanical.These subjects are no longer taught in the schools.They no longer teach cursive writing. I enjoy working on older vehicles and did a lot of research looking at parts catalogs,Service Bulletins, and other technical books while rebuilding my Model A.Had intimate knowledge of just about every system on the car.Luckily where my skills were limited, had friends that had the skills that I lacked in the areas of machine work and welding.It still amazes me at the engineering that went into the Model A and the systems that were incorporated then are still in use today only modified to be assisted by either hydraulics or electronics.We need to thank Edsel Ford for his persistence to get Henry to modernize and drop the T. |
07-27-2014, 10:48 AM | #15 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
In the early 60s, I was one of the best mechanics I knew. I was always fixing other people's stuff. I was mainly self taught, little formal schooling. But I did get a few classes in Aircraft (A & E) Since airplane parts are more expensive than car parts, a greater attempt is made to salvage them. Later when I had my own plane (C 172) I was able to work on it myself. I even changed the engine myself with an A & P looking over my shoulder.
My years as a welder taught me a lot, mainly about the methods and how they're used. What effect the heat has on the metal etc. And things related to welding. For twenty years, I worked as a Machinist, Tool and Die maker, and finally, Model maker for a large research co. in Princeton NJ. Toolmakers are funny people! We all believe that we can make anything and make it better than anyone else, We're Prima Donnas. But we don't care about how long it takes! And I had a short career as a marine mechanic. There I learned something about the precision that could be applied to woodworking. We were working on old Chris Craft, mahogany speed boats and they had to be good. I helped a man fit a new Garboard strake (This first plank next to the keelson) in such a way that it wouldn't buckle when the boat was soaked up. I think there was a 1/16th clearance all around. That wasn't the only job we did, It's the only one I recall. And Guns! I worked with a Gunsmith for a while inletting blank stocks and various other kid jobs. Later, I made my own Checkering tools and did a few paying jobs for the other guys. (I just recalled that!) We also modified a few guns that other had given up on. So I'm the sum total of all these arts and trades and I still don't know how to finish a body (Correctly) But I'm learning! Terry |
07-27-2014, 10:55 AM | #16 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I think your level of "restoration" skills will reflect your real desire to rebuild each and every part or let someone else do the rebuild you install or farm the whole deal out. Ive had lottsa cars motorcycles trucks and I like the engineering that when into their development and design. Im not gonna go buy and English wheel but I've done some good body work. This hobby is what each person gets from it. Ya give alittle too, like the knowledge garnered from this web site. The times they are a changing That's my opinion
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07-27-2014, 11:06 AM | #17 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Restorers/ Classic car owners skill sets vary almost car to car. Some bought it restored, spend 2 frustrating days every spring trying to get it to run good enough for the 4 or 5 parades and car shows they might attend that summer. If something is wrong that truely frusrates them, they order a bunch of parts and put them all on without going through some basic troubleshooting steps. Normally this results in more problems and they hire some one to figure it out.
Others of us bought a relatively complete car and sent it to a restoration shop as the challange seemed to big. Then there is the group that bought the car or pile of parts and got to work. Doing about 80% of the work themselves. This is a snapshot of society itself. If we all had the same skills it would be a boring place. I help maintain a fleet of about 140 electric forklifts and find it intersting the varied skill sets of the other people in the shop. Some barely keep their job, others excel to be the go to guy forbigger problems. Rod |
07-27-2014, 12:10 PM | #18 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Again FWIW, in addressing "skills":
After visiting all of the museums in Athens, Greece with a knowledgeable young native Greek doctor of internal medicine, and seeing their ancient sculpture & art work, and having him explain the ancient Greek World, the Greek lost & newly found medical & psychiatric technology from 5,000 years before Christ, it appears the human mind has changed over time about as much our sun rises & sun sets that we witness every day. Humans today just appear to have different tools, different materials, different methods, & mainly different "interests" which leads to different skills. I have no doubt that Archimedes could have timed a Model A Ford just as well as Mr. Les Andrews, Mr. Tom Endy, & Mr. Henry Ford's 1930's top mechanic. Just one (1) shared experience. Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 07-27-2014 at 12:12 PM. Reason: typo |
07-27-2014, 02:02 PM | #19 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
I consider myself a quite GOOD mechanic/technician, BUT, I've learned far more on the Barn, than I've contributed!
Let's NOT bad mouth those folks that hire ALL their restoration work done, more power to them, if they have the BUCKS to do it!! Bill W.
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07-27-2014, 02:47 PM | #20 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Well all I will say is ., Time has not been kind to my skills .,
There was a time when I could tell whats wrong by smell ., ,..,
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07-27-2014, 03:13 PM | #21 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
For a non-mechanics like me, I purchased a car that I could learn from and thus far its been a great learning experience. I'm very thankful for the experts on this website and their willingness to share their years and years of experience.
As for computers, they are no smarter than a cutout relay; a simple switch, they just have 10 of millions connected together... It's the human programming them that make them to interesting things..
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-Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio Last edited by mshmodela; 07-27-2014 at 05:29 PM. |
07-27-2014, 04:20 PM | #22 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Not too long ago I had a dream. I was transported back in time to the beginning of the industrial revolution, and, with all the achievements of the past century I knew about and experienced myself, such as the Internet, cell phones, fuel injected engines, digital cameras, microwave ovens, etc., would I be able to become a successful entrepreneur in that time? Could I build an engine from scratch? Could I build a telephone? A radio or black-and-white television? Do I know how a tube works or a transistor and how to build one? Could I fix anything that was transported with me in time? Or even explain how it worked? I've figured out, probably not. All I knew I would do is buy Ford stock in the teens, and IBM and Microsoft in the 1970s, but I would not be able to replicate much of what those inventors created in the first place, simply because I don't know how to do that. I know it works, but I don't know the parts needed to make it work. T, nor do I think that many of the Gen X, Y, and Zero kids do. That kind of makes me sad. How 'bout you?
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07-27-2014, 05:58 PM | #23 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
NO! The Auto Mechanic is NOT disappearing into the PAST! I know so called, TECHNICIANS, that are whiz bangs with solid state control systems, etc, but don't know SHIT about operating stuff that's common in ALL cars! Some of them have their own LINGO that irritates the crap out of me & it doesn't help diagnose/repair cars any better. All of the solid state crap is NOT MYSTERIOUS, if you study it's function & get it in your head, at least in LAYMEN'S terms.
Bill W.
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07-27-2014, 06:03 PM | #24 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
To each his on, its just a hobby for some old geezers to have something to do and enjoy and money comes into some decisions.
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07-27-2014, 09:44 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
[QUOTE=BILL WILLIAMSON;917186]
Quote:
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07-28-2014, 05:06 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
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Quote:
The best oblique answer I can give to your comments would be that in the 1960s we had no access to the detailed restoration information of today; and of course no means of picking others' brains via computer, we could only consult other "A" owners. As I can best recall, back then we were more interested in keeping them rolling and less on detailed authentic restoration. As best as I an recall |
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07-28-2014, 07:35 PM | #27 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
The more you learn, The more you learn! 48 years and counting. I was 12 years old when I started working on VW Beetles. Still learning and having fun after all these years. Saw and hear my first Model A at 13 and still hooked.
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07-28-2014, 10:56 PM | #28 | |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
[QUOTE=Purdy Swoft;917738]
Quote:
I "think" I know where you're coming from, with weight on the wheels, it helps somewhat in centering the shoes to the drums, as there is a "little" bit of up & down play in the rear hub bearings. Bro Bill W.
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07-28-2014, 11:30 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
Quote:
Fixing lawnmowers and taking anything and everything apart just to see how it worked was my thing as a kid. My bicycle wasn't in one piece for very long and any scrap wood around the house i claimed it to be mine. I blame that wooden take apart train. Looks like a steam locomotive that is all held together by one long threaded wooden rod, rest of it all interlocks. Apparently I was fascinated with that thing according to my mom. There is alot of stuff nowadays that its just not practical to repair, usually the cost of a part is more than half the cost of a whole new thing. I too wish i had a small lathe and mill and could weld worth a beans (im learning need more practice) would make my repairs look ALOT nicer and be 100 times more easily repaired... TV's nowadays LCD specifically 95% of thier problems are the backlights go out (thing that lights it up and makes it glow) They are home replaceable if you have the patience and have a pencil soldering iron. The backlights are nothing more than a miniature ballast and florescent light system. Its a step up transformer that takes the 9-20volts from the internal power supply and bumps it up to 3-600 volts that goes directly to either end of a florescent tube half the size of a pencil. They do and will burn out just like your overhead lights. tubes are usually $5-10 a piece and ive bought the "ballasts" for as little as $4 a piece. The other 5% of the problems are the video board (controls your color and alignment) depends on the make and model but they arent too hard to find and replace. Or the power supply died - once again not hard to replace or find. Theres only one handful of companies that make LCD tv's and computer monitors, the internal guts of your Dell monitor is the same as your samsung or LG so alot of parts are interchangeable. ANYWAYS: My highschool we had drafting (by hand still - no computers), wood shop, auto mech, metals (using lathes mills etc also using sheetmetal tools to cut and fold all sorts of stuff), forging (melted down worn out/broken auto mech aluminum parts), small engines, welding(stick and wirefeed), electronics, and graphic arts(computer design, printing press materials, photo developing). I took whatever i could and learned alot from the vo-tech classes. I had to learn cursive writing in the 3rd grade and we were all forced to use it from 3rd to fifth grade. From then on we could write however we wanted. Best part is im only 26 so it wasn't all that long ago i learned all this stuff. I will agree and say there are VERY few schools teaching this stuff and even less parents that know how to fix anything which in turn their kids dont know and so on. I try my best by teaching my friends how to repair some things and sometimes we all learn together. I dunno there's just something satisfying about doing a job yourself. I do enjoy working on older cars more as you dont need arms like gumby or 5 extensions and swivel joints to reach a bolt. But in reality the principles are still there on the newest of the new, granted there's alot of other useless crud in the way with it... ok ill get off my soapbox and go burn it
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07-29-2014, 02:47 PM | #30 |
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Re: Reflections on We Restorers' Skills
[QUOTE=BILL WILLIAMSON;918397]Right on!!!!!!! Yer brother Purdy.
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