Radius Rod Socket

[Robert/Texas]

I have been having trouble lately with my ‘28 roadster wandering on hardtop roads. We have had flooding in this area for the last two years and the roads have shallow dips and steering ruts. This has caused me to notice the problem more than before the rains.

I have removed all of the slack/looseness in the front end and steering and this helped some. My wife and I measured the caster per the instructions in Les Andrew’s book and found that it was only about a quarter of what it should be. We did many caster measurements and all of them came out the same. Les Andrew’s book suggests that the radius rod socket could cause this problem so I bought a new repair kit from one of the vendors. This kit is supposed to be an exact copy of the original.
When I began to install the kit I noticed that the two special bolts included looked slightly larger in diameter than the old ones so I decided to replace them. Big mistake! I got one out OK but dropped the other one down in the clutch/flywheel housing. Yesterday I spent hours trying to fish out the bolt with a skinny magnet, a grabber tool and 90-degree needle nose pliers but to no avail. I could see a few threads from the bolt and it appeared to be jammed just below the clutch. Inserting my finger in the hole (where the radius rod socket fits) I could rock the bolt but could not get any purchase to pull it out.
Today I removed the cover from the top of the clutch/flywheel housing and hand cranked the engine to try and bring the bolt to the top. The clutch/flywheel assembly jammed after a quarter turn (?) so I jacked up the right rear wheel to turn the engine backwards. I suspect the bolt fell forward into the clutch/flywheel cavity and I can no longer see or feel it from the radius rod socket hole. Further I can’t feel or see any sign of the bolt thru the small weep hole at the lowest point of the clutch/flywheel housing.
At this point I was able to turn the engine in either direction by turning the jacked up left rear wheel but there were some grabby points when doing this. After a few turns, back and forth, the grabby points disappeared. Next I cranked the engine with the starter. Again I heard a slight clunk but this quickly disappeared. Now the engine cranks smoothly.
I assume that the bolt fell into the cavity and I could probably reassemble everything and run. However, the risk is that the bolt might move into a vulnerable position while going down the road and who knows what might happen.
I really have little desire to remove the rear end assembly or pull the engine to open up the clutch/flywheel housing. All suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks Robert.

[Bob C]

Here is a link to a thread on getting starter drive bolts out of the flywheel housing
and there are other links in the thread on the same subject. Maybe you can get
some more ideas from them. http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=starter+bolts

Bob

[Robert/Texas]

Thanks Bob, good threads. I'll pull the starter tomorrow and go on from there. In the meantime other suggestions are still welcome.
Thanks, Robert

[SeaSlugs]

stick a thin powerful maginet on the flywheel and slowly turn it over and see if stuff comes back around with it haha. Or find a big ol powerful maginet and stick it to the bottom of the housing then slide it towards a hole you can see.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would fasten a small magnet to a coat hanger or like wire, then fish around for the bolt. I saw a hole punched in a bellhousing when a stray piece of hardware got jammed into the flywheel.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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"Maybe"--through the starter hole, put a BIG BLOB of heavy grease on the flywheel & rotate it.
Bill Sticky

[tbirdtbird]

once you get the bolt out , i would worry way less about caster.
There are many other areas on an A suspension that are known to cause looseness, wandering, etc. If these things are not made right no amount of caster adjustment will help

1. loose front wheel bearings
2. worn king pins
3. loose tie rod ends and drag link ends
4. steering box bolts to frame
5. pitman arm loose on sector shaft.....that pinch bolt needs to be very tight. have someone turn the wheel back and forth and you are under there checking for lost motion at the sector shaft (the shaft with the big square end coming from the steering box)
6. incorrect toe-in....it should be 1/16"
7. loose steering arms
8. steering box itself needs adjusting or rebuilding

there are many threads on this very same subject which will cover this problem better than I just did, a search will be revealing

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I epoxied a small round magnet onto a flex cable from an old drain rooter. I can pull the bolt and washer out by going thru the starter hole in less then 5 tries

[larrys40]

I think t-bird has given you excellent advise of the most probable Areas of the cause of your wander.
Larry Shepard

[Robert/Texas]

Many thanks to all of you for your helpful suggestions
First let me mention some things that aren’t in my profile. I bought my first Model A, a ’28 roadster, in 1955 when I was 21 years old from the original owner’s daughter for $100 ($2000? in today’s money). I had that car for about 1-1/2 years. The only major mechanical work I remember doing on it was to replace the engine with a short block from Sears and to replace the kingpins. After that I owned a ’32 Model B pickup for about a year.
Now for modern times: I bought an early ’28 open cab pickup and this ’28 roadster in 1988 (33 years later than my original Model A). I’ve done quite a bit of work on both of these cars over the years including front end work, brakes, engine rebuilding/swapping etc. Both cars are “20 footers” but run and stop well.
I remember some years ago that the radius ball on the roadster had a rubber boot on it which I replaced. That didn’t last long so I replaced the whole assembly with new repro parts from Marks (?) Antique Ford Parts store on Harrisburg Blvd in Houston. I recently bought new USA-made repro parts from a major vendor. The two new special bolts are heavier, slightly larger in diameter and have a different thread from the old ones. The two nuts and the upper and lower ball sockets appear to be of better quality.
My wife and I had measured the caster per the instructions in the Les Andrews book several times and found it to be a good bit off. My plan is to re-measure it after I install the new parts. We measured the toe-in several times with a wooden contraption that I made after reading several “how to” threads on this website. It measures right at 1/4 inch so I’m going to adjust it too.
The special bolt that’s missing inside the clutch/flywheel housing (bell housing) is 7/16 fine thread about 2-3/4” long and fairly heavy. We tried all day to find the ‘missing’ bolt through the radius rod ball hole, inside the top inspection door (where the throw-out bearing is greased) and the starter hole. We used an inspection camera, flexible grippers and magnets plus real sticky grease. No luck. We tried a shop vac and also blowing with an air compressor to determine if we could ‘find’ the dang thing.
I think I’m going to give it up now and put everything back together tomorrow. The engine cranks well but I’m afraid to start it. I think I can get some help in a few weeks to pull the rear end. The Les Andrews book is a little confusing to me. Back in the mid 1950’s two friends and I swapped out a transmission in a ’34 Ford on a gravel shoulder. I don’t think we removed the wheels yet the book seems to imply you need to do this.
Any further suggestions will be much appreciated and thanks in advance.
Robert

[tbirdtbird]

take a breather. then go back to it. the ideas above are good ones and all have worked at least once for someone. I agree the grease method may not work with that particular bolt.

I would think that judicious use of one of those fancy small magnets (neodymium)
https://www.amazon.com/Magnet-Source...dymium+magnets
epoxied to a flex wand would work as mentioned by others.

DO NOT start that motor. That bolt will be caught by the FW and will punch a hole in your bell housing/ FW housing or worse.

Be very cautious of what you read in the Les book....there is a lot of misinformation in there, as been pointed out by many many posters over the years

[kwisor]

not to long ago my pin in the clutch fork fell out I thought well have to pull the rear end to replace it no way to get to it I pulled the wishbone from under the clutch housing and found a large hole in the bottom got the old pin out and put new one in didn't pull the rear try that may help
kevin
1930 tudor

[tbirdtbird]

"We tried all day to find the ‘missing’ bolt through the radius rod ball hole,"

[Robert/Texas]

Tbird, I liked your suggestions so much that I have decided to comply. I’m going to fix my wife’s lawn tractor because she has been helping me for the last four days. She likes that machine so much that she even mows the neighbor’s lawns with it. I’m leaving tomorrow for a few days anyway. I ordered the magnets that you suggested and they are supposed to arrive on Monday. Any suggestions on what to use for a flex wand? I’m thinking about using a small plumbers snake but maybe something else would work better.
Thanks, Robert

[Bruce Lancaster]

There are readily available tool store magnetic flex grabbers, all with rather feeble magnets. Get one of those, stick your superduper magnet to the cheap magnet, then add some electrical tape to the connection. Ready to go!
The tape is necessary because the magnet is quite likely to find a piece of metal it really likes in there out of sight and stick to it when you pull out the tool.

[tbirdtbird]

others may chime in, but I would think a small plumber's snake would work well. You may have to cut the end off with a cutoff wheel, I think those snakes are belled out at the business end. I myself have not been up against this chore, so I defer to others.

I wonder if the bolt is somehow jammed in there. You mentioned turning the motor/flywheel after the bolt first got loose in there. Do you have or can you borrow a needle scaler? or an air hammer?
If needle scaler I would have a go at the outside of the FW housing for an extended time at say the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions to try to vibrate the thing loose. The scaler will not harm the casting but they do vibrate like crazy, which is the whole idea. Use as much air pressure as you have.
I'd be less enthusiastic about an air hammer but if it had a dull tool loaded into it, and you turned the air pressure down to say 30 psi and used it also at 4 and 8 as a source of vibration that might work too. Just be more careful with it.

You said you used a bore scope and still could not see it? That does seem odd. You said 'inspection camera' but there are several types. A bore scope has a camera on the end of a thin diameter wand. The one I use has a 5/16 or 3/8 diam. It is handy for way more than looking in cylinder bores

[100IH]

Go to a local garage and talk to one of the mechanics. They will have contact# for all of the local mobile tool vendors. The guys in the shop will most likely have catalogues for you to look at. The tool rep will likely bring you what you pickout and give you a catalogue. The guys in the shop might even help you pick out the best choice item and the best vender. It's not like they have never been in the same situation. Be there at 7:55 am and bring doughnuts. Almost 50 years under the hood.

[SeaSlugs]

that's a big bolt to loose in there. Are you 100% sure it didn't fall out while you were cranking the engine over? You might be looking for a bolt that doesn't exist where you think it is...

[Robert/Texas]

My son-in-law works as a mechanic for Carmax and lives about 100 miles from here came Friday night to help me with this problem. We decided to pull the rear axle assembly to the extent needed to get into the clutch housing. He looked at the Les Andrews instructions for clutch and transmission removal and felt he could simplify the procedures. This morning he looked under the car for about 20 minutes and then we got to work. As we only needed to move the real axle assembly back about 1/2 inch, we eliminated about half of the steps. We didn’t drain any fluids and only got a few drops of oil on the workshop floor. We only removed the rear tires to disconnect and reinstall the shock arms. I think the hardest things I did was to remove and install the 6-volt Optima battery bracket. It took us about 3 hours to get the rear axle assembly back far enough to remove this large bolt. After lunch we worked another 3 hours to get it back together. I think that we could do it in less time if we needed to do it again.
Thanks again to all of you for your help and interest
Robert

[Marshall V. Daut]

Congratulations on finally getting that nasty old bolt out! I've always felt Ford should have put a removable "trap door" on the bottom of the bellhousing to ease retrieving the inevitable broken starter bolts and springs. Such a door wouldn't compromise the integrity of the bellhousing. Ford sure missed a good bet there!
Marshall