The Ford Barn

Chris in WNC · 06-21-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jxnslotcar

Interesting. The reason I had gone with Mac's is because I had found new parts that he had bought in the bed and they were all from Mac's. Are you suggesting the others because of price or quality or both? I appreciate any input about this. I have not personally worked on anything this old. Usually my projects tend to be from the 50's or 60's.
I love the Model A's car or truck but quite frankly the market has blown the prices skyhigh even for a rust bucket. He was going to sell this truck as it sits for $7500 which sounds like a real deal to me when you consider how good the sheet metal is. Then it was decided it would be a shame to sell it and him not being able to drive again. That is why I think this is really cool. That is just my personal opinion. The family member who was going to buy it is the one who suggested that the truck come to me to be finished and now I may have the opportunity to take it back apart to redo the paint. I am trying to figure out how much time I will have into taking the bed off as well as the fenders and maybe the cab so I can blast the frame. Then I will be able to sand, prime and paint the various parts and put the truck back together. That would include what we were going to originally do.

quality & fit.

Mac's was the first vendor I bought from in the 80's.
switched to Bratton's in the early 90s, no regrets.
Snyder's & Bert's also excellent.

the cheapest part is often not a bargain......

Russ B · 06-21-2013, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris in wnc

personal opinion- rethink the mac's purchase.

You & the truck's owner will likely be happier with bratton's, snyders or berts......

x 2

d. · 06-21-2013, 06:33 PM

Brattons, Snyders or Berts would be the first choices. MACS is known for quality problems, out-of-stock, and general customer service issues (do a search). Pricing is very comparable between the vendors, so why pay to sign up for a hassle?
The final work delivered to the customer will all come back to your choices on the best quality parts that are used for the project.

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 07:58 AM

pictures All steel except for the rear fenders. The rear tail light is attached to a cross plate which was bolted in. As far as I can tell that is not original and the light should be bolted to either the left rear fender or the left side of the bed. This is a late 1931 and the reason I say that is it has a wide metal over wood bed. I suppose it was a running change in parts when Ford went to the wide bed in 1932.

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 08:00 AM

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 08:02 AM

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This is the original color which is green tho on here is looks kinda blueish to me. There are also 4 holes that the previous owner put in the firewall for a heater that he later took out because it was not original.

This is a better picture of the color. Take a look at the glass bowl. Thankfully the tank has none of that substance in it. I have cleaned out the bowl and the petcock which would not move. I am looking forward to getting the engine running. We have to do some welding on the firewall so I am not going to put gas in the tank but use an external fuel tank.

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 08:38 AM

The wheels are not correct for the year as the fronts are 17's and the rears are 19 inch. I was going through Mac's site and had to go to a newer year to find the same size as what is on the truck. I think they are going to stay with what wheels are on it. This is not going to be a "show" truck sitting on a trailer but a "driver". It has sat in a garage long enough and it is time it gets back on the open road.
This is not a rust bucket and has very little filler. I have gone over the whole truck with a magnet and paint thickness gauge. I have only found a couple of dollops of filler on one bottom corner of a door and another on the bottom edge of the cab-both on the left side. The paint is bubbling in those areas.
Whomever painted it used a blue metallic paint that has some flip flop in it. I have seen a green tinge in it Depends on the light and how it is reflecting on the paint. Even though it was not original, it was probably a good looking "custom" paint job when it was done.
So what do you think of it? It should be real easy to get it back in shape and that is why I am thinking 4-6 weeks to get it done so that he will have time to drive it this year. We are going to discuss painting it on Monday. They asked me if I would like to do it and I really want to be involved in painting it. We are going to be doing what we were going to do which is finish it up but before we do that, it would need to come back apart to drive it.
If they go through with the repaint, I have already told Steve that the only way I want to do it is if we take the time to disassemble the truck. That would entail taking the radiator and surround out (headlights, horn, ect), fenders and running boards off as well as the bed. And maybe even taking the cab off of it. That way the frame could be cleaned up and coated. I am not looking to a complete teardown and a total nuts and bolts restoration. I am not sure what I would call but it would not be that.

TinCup · 06-22-2013, 09:02 AM

Looks like a great project. Take your time and start a punch list of what you want to do. Too many folks are overwhelmed by projects like this. But make a plan and you will get there.

spike · 06-22-2013, 02:49 PM

Send that 2000.00 for parts to snyders or bratons and get quality instead of junk.You are the one that has to fit these parts and live with them...goood luck and looking to see the progress in the furture.....

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 06-22-2013, 03:27 PM

Couple of things...

4-6 weeks seems pretty optimistic. Generally I think you are going to find more to slow you down as you progress. Best wishes to you none-the-less!!

I don't believe it has 19' wheels on the back. Are you certain it does?

As far as welding on the firewall, the backside of the tank does not touch the firewall except at the very top so you really do not have any worries there HOWEVER, might I suggest that you should be flushing the gas tank anyway, so while you are doing that, consider on the last flush or so to fill the tank with 10 gallons of water, and then do your firewall welding if that is in your plan. (Personally based on what I see of the truck I would not bother with the firewall until a full frame-up is being done, For now just cut two circles of sheetmetal and place them on each side of the cowl with a screw through the center of the two circles. That will close the hole and be much faster)

One other question, if you did talk Steve into a total repaint, how do you propose of getting both layers of paint (both paint jobs) off, --and what paint to you propose to go back with?

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Couple of things...

4-6 weeks seems pretty optimistic. Generally I think you are going to find more to slow you down as you progress. Best wishes to you none-the-less!!

I don't believe it has 19' wheels on the back. Are you certain it does?

As far as welding on the firewall, the backside of the tank does not touch the firewall except at the very top so you really do not have any worries there HOWEVER, might I suggest that you should be flushing the gas tank anyway, so while you are doing that, consider on the last flush or so to fill the tank with 10 gallons of water, and then do your firewall welding if that is in your plan. (Personally based on what I see of the truck I would not bother with the firewall until a full frame-up is being done, For now just cut two circles of sheetmetal and place them on each side of the cowl with a screw through the center of the two circles. That will close the hole and be much faster)

One other question, if you did talk Steve into a total repaint, how do you propose of getting both layers of paint (both paint jobs) off, --and what paint to you propose to go back with?

4-6 weeks is absolutely optimistic but I do have a shop with employees, so it is not just me that would be working on this. I would rather it be just me but I need to be realistic in regards to my time availability. I will need to look at the rear wheels again. We are not replacing those tires so I did not write down the size in my notes. I have spent the last 3 days going through the truck, making notes so as to come up with a plan of action.
I will not be doing a "nut and bolt" restoration. I guess you might call it a refreshing and then finishing to make it a nice driver. They came to me about a repaint. At 1st it was just going to be finishing it and getting it running and safe for the road.
I have already started cleaning the fuel system, so it would be a good time to make pieces to weld into those holes that the previous owner put into the firewall. the holes are jagged and generally a hack job. I would cut them out to clean them up and then make individual patches to weld back in place, grind them p
out smooth and get the firewall ready to paint. I thought about using water in the tank to not only help clean it but also just in case there are any fumes left I do not need a fire.
I did take a magnet and paint thickness gauge around the truck. There is not an abnormal amount of paint. I am sure in places I would need to take to bare metal and others where I can use a good sealer. I am still discussing with the paint store the best way to go with the primer, sealer, paint and clear coat-enamel or lacquer. I would personally like to go with lacquer. The paint store is trying to talk me out of it. The problem with lacquer is the drying time or curing time where it is totally hard, ect. The enamel is pretty much dry within a few minutes. But a Model A is entirely new ground for me so I am taking this slowly and listening to any and all suggestions. What would you use? And how would you take the paint down? Sanding, stripper, soda, blasting, ect? I have not done soda before tho I hear it works OK but a lot of after prep.
I have done lots of vehicles before just nothing this old. In that respect, it is a bit intimidating. We will not be taking it down to a bare frame but a rolling chassis, clean it, seal it and paint it. The same thing with the body. I am still up in the air as to whether to take the cab off of the frame. Like I said, not a nut and bolt deal besides I do not have 6 months to do this truck.
Whatever I do needs to be done so that he is able to drive it this Summer. At 1st, I was thinking a couple of weeks at most to just finish it out and get it running and driving.
I was thinking about those rear wheels and I remember thinking they were smaller than front wheels so that would make them 16 inch wheels

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 06-22-2013, 06:57 PM

Where you gonna buy the lacquer? Most lacquer is either real cheap, --or REAL expensive. Any urethane over the top of lacquer is going to cause all kinds of lifting issues even if you use a sealer.

I guess my position if it were in my shop is I would not do any paint, OR it would be come apart and totally be stripped using media or chemical immersion. What you need to figure out is where do you stop on a 82 y.o. project? Are you gonna take the roof material off when you paint it? What about the visor? What about the rear fender not fitting? What about the condition of that tailgate? Maybe it is the pictures but to me the back of the cab looks pretty wavy. So does the radiator apron. Maybe your customer doesn't care about fixing that stuff??

If you are serious about hitting your 4-6 week window, I would probably suggest forgoing the repaint and suggest cleaning & polishing what is there. As you are, you a figuring approximately 200 hours of work. I don't know your shop rate but at just $20 an hour, that comes in at $4,000.00 + parts.

jxnslotcar · 06-22-2013, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Where you gonna buy the lacquer? Most lacquer is either real cheap, --or REAL expensive. Any urethane over the top of lacquer is going to cause all kinds of lifting issues even if you use a sealer.

I guess my position if it were in my shop is I would not do any paint, OR it would be come apart and totally be stripped using media or chemical immersion. What you need to figure out is where do you stop on a 82 y.o. project? Are you gonna take the roof material off when you paint it? What about the visor? What about the rear fender not fitting? What about the condition of that tailgate? Maybe it is the pictures but to me the back of the cab looks pretty wavy. So does the radiator apron. Maybe your customer doesn't care about fixing that stuff??

If you are serious about hitting your 4-6 week window, I would probably suggest forgoing the repaint and suggest cleaning & polishing what is there. As you are, you a figuring approximately 200 hours of work. I don't know your shop rate but at just $20 an hour, that comes in at $4,000.00 + parts.

That is kinda where I am at with the whole thing. I would not be satisfied in scuffing ,sealing and painting. It will be enamel regardless as much as I would like to do lacquer. I do NOT know these trucks intimately like you seem to. As far as the tailgate, it is getting replaced. and they are not looking to spend $10,000 to do the body work and paint it. More like $2500-$3500. We were at $3500 to do what they had originally wanted with parts. I am at 25 hrs for what they had originally wanted. My cost is more than $20 per hour. I also do not have the luxury of turning away work if they do not want to do it the way I want to do it. I have always made sure they understood why I wanted to do it differently than they did and then I do it the way they want it done. A lot of times my customers go along with my suggestions but in this case I know I do not have the time to do it the way I would like to do it so I must come up with some kind of happy medium. The body overall is in really good shape. I have seen a lot of original sheet metal that had some "character flaws" from the factory. Making a body picture perfect for shows is great and A person can get a great deal of satisfaction from doing that but from a time viewpoint, money viewpoint and from what it's intended purpose is meant to be this truck will not be that show truck.
That is why I have spent the last 3 days or so looking at this truck and working it out in my mind as to what is the best way to go with it while meeting and/or exceeding his expectations may be. So with all that being said this is tough as to where you stop with a 82 year old project. I am thankful it is in as good as shape as it is and honored to be asked to do it, no matter what constraints that are placed on me. I guess I just do not have the wealthy clients with a large budget to spend to do it 100% correct. I wish I did but I don't but I will say I am very thankful and feel blessed with what I do have. I feel that I am close to having a solid plan of action to move forward with the truck, it may not be 100% perfect but will be as good as I can possibly do within the constraints that I have in front of me. I am on here so that I may learn more about them and if I can then it will be that much more better in the long run.
I have been working on cars for 40 years and yet I feel like I still have a lot to learn and I look forward to it.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 06-22-2013, 10:01 PM

From where I am sitting, if you have spent the last 3 days plotting a plan, then your time is already at the 25 hours they wanted to spend. Now what do you do? Are you going to charge the customer for your time spent? If not, how will you ever amortize those costs into the future labor?

This is probably the last that we should be talking of this publicly but let me make a few observations. If your reputation can stand sending out a $2,500 paint job, then by all means do it. From my perspective, very few shops could even do that job for anything less than double the amount your customer is wanting to spend, ...and that is NOT pricing a show paint job either. All too well I know of folks who want to spend way less than what some things costs but sometimes reality must be recognized. While it is easy to say you cannot afford to turn away work, the brutal truth is you cannot afford to do it in a substandard manner either.

I would venture a guess that you are underestimating your labor time on this project because you are excited to have it in your shop to work on. From my vantage point, this is a dangerous position for a businessman to be in if he needs to be profitable. If they were at a $3,500 budget, and you had figured $2k in parts and 25 hours of labor, then you had better hope all goes extremely well or you will likely be working for free. While you may consider it an honor to be working on that truck, just remember that "honor" does not pay employee wages or business overhead.

Again, I do wish you well and am more than willing to assist you any way I can with your project either off-line or by telephone.

.

Mitch//pa · 06-22-2013, 11:47 PM

i agree with brent your in over your head on this job. no way your doing a frame off paint job for 3500 parts and labor. your labor rate on project 1 is 60.00 per hr if you earning 1500. @25 hrs labor. how many hours labor do you think youll have into the body and paint? then figure materials and not just paint materials but mechanical materials needed to do this. if you cant afford to turn work away can you afford to work weeks for free???
sorry but am i missing something here

jxnslotcar · 06-23-2013, 12:22 AM

I truly appreciate what you are saying and thank you for your offer to help. Please let me say you are misunderstanding where I am at with this job. You must think I am a total idiot for you guys to say something like that. I have spent the last 3 days (not all day long) looking at this truck, reading threads, ect and I believe this is something that I can not charge for. It did not interfere with what else I had going on. I was learning about a Model A truck-kinda hard to explain but I can not charge a customer for time for me to learn-whatever the reason is.
I really hate typing on a computer rather than talking face to face as straight words do not always come across as they were meant. I say this because when I read your wods my first reaction is to take offense because it seems like even tho you may have read what I have typed, you really did not understand what I have said. I thought I had made myself clear as to why I want to do this truck.
I have been in this business for a long time. I really don't get "excited" by much any more. I could see a younger guy getting excited because it might be a chance for him to get recognized or to prove something. I don't feel like I have anything to prove other than I would like to learn something "new" to me That was the gist of this thread to begin with. Not anything other than that. I am not looking for more customers on here nor am I trying to prove anything. I just wanted to learn about something new which just happens to be something old. Believe it or not, I AM an expert in a lot of different types of cars just not Model A's. For instance if your fuel injected computer controlled engine needs help, then feel free to give me a call. You should try estimating an electrical driveability problem in a flood vehicle. Especially when you have to factor in the costs of the diagnostic equipment needed to work on todays vehicles. The oldest vehicle I have in the shop is a 1954 Chrysler New Yorker. I just coluld not help myself with that car as I installed an entirely new fuel system and electrical system so that I could then install the fuel injected drivetrain in it. I still need to do some odds and ends to it so that it can be driven and then I will need to paint it as well. After the metal mods are done on it.I have not yet decided what colors yet but thinking a medium dark silver metallic with deep metallic red accents. I am thinking it would look good with the chrome wire wheels I have for it. It is an unusual car to do all that with but will be fun.

I want to help an older man than me finally drive the truck again. It is not about the money-never was. someday that older man may be me needing help. he is ,after all, only around 25 yrs older than me.
Enough said.

jxnslotcar · 06-23-2013, 12:40 AM

BTW,I guess you missed where I said that we are going to get together on Monday to order the original parts list that I came up with and also to discuss this paint job. I did not say I was going to do the paint job within the constraints . I did look at the truck, came up with a plan of action, talked with the paint supplier about a couple of options, ect. I wanted to get some good advice from here. I normally do these things before I sit down with a customer about a job like this. Regardless of whether the paint gets done by me or someone else, I will be doing the other so that he can at least drive it on the road this year. Your comments about me are kinda insulting. This thread will probably be locked by the mods now and with it being my 1st thread......

Not Cool

James Rogers · 06-23-2013, 06:36 AM

First, all the advice is good and exactly what you are asking for. The mods are not going to lock this unless it gets out of hand and from here I don't see that. Second, why would any successful shop let a customer dictate price? Customers would be trying to get all the work free if possible so, you need to just tell them the price and like Brent said, let them walk if they don't like the price. Low prices may get you work but, it won't pay your bills.

As for the firewall, this might help. http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com...allRepair.html
Looks like someone made those holes with a pick. It will take some time and money to repair correctly.

QGolden · 06-23-2013, 07:39 AM

Jxnslotcar,
Don't get uptight. You asked for thoughts and advice, and you got it. You got it honest and heartfelt.

We don't always hear what we want to, or are expecting to hear when we seek advice. Terry, James, Mitch and others here do nothing but eat, sleep, and drink these cars. They have forgotten more about Model A's than most of us will Learn in our lifetimes. These three who have responded to you have shops, and work on these cars for their livelihood. They are accountable to many customers for the quality of their work. Personally, I hang on every nugget they are willing to share because I am getting priceless "free" information, they freely share from 10's of 1000's of hours of experience, and ask me for nothing in return.

If you wish to infer an insult from any of the comments that have been here, then I think you are alone, and will be. We would all love to see this truck get on the road and bring a little joy to an old mans heart, that is what it is all about.

If you ask for advice, take it, process it, gleen off what applies to your plan, and move on. That is my advice, but you did not ask for it, so do with it what you will.

Mitch//pa · 06-23-2013, 08:18 AM

i am truly sorry if i offended you, maybe when i read into post #32 and you were putting dollars to labor time , parts and total costs, plus on the post where you stated that you have other employees to work on the truck, and that you cant afford to let customers slip away, that it was more of a shop job than a charity case. i have a big heart also and do things to help people out at times also. maybe with my own labor but definetly not paying employees also to work on it. so that being said maybe i got off track a little on your intentions. enjoy working on the mans truck keep us updated on the progress, and just make sure the owners know that they will need to shell out more than 3500 for parts and materials to do a frame off even if its not a nut & bolt. your a good guy to donate your time the owner will be truly estatic when he see's the truck finished.

06-21-2013, 06:33 PM	#23
d. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 510	Re: "New" project in my shop Brattons, Snyders or Berts would be the first choices. MACS is known for quality problems, out-of-stock, and general customer service issues (do a search). Pricing is very comparable between the vendors, so why pay to sign up for a hassle? The final work delivered to the customer will all come back to your choices on the best quality parts that are used for the project.

06-22-2013, 07:58 AM	#24
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop pictures All steel except for the rear fenders. The rear tail light is attached to a cross plate which was bolted in. As far as I can tell that is not original and the light should be bolted to either the left rear fender or the left side of the bed. This is a late 1931 and the reason I say that is it has a wide metal over wood bed. I suppose it was a running change in parts when Ford went to the wide bed in 1932. Last edited by jxnslotcar; 06-22-2013 at 08:17 AM.

06-22-2013, 08:00 AM	#25
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop

06-22-2013, 08:02 AM	#26
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) This is the original color which is green tho on here is looks kinda blueish to me. There are also 4 holes that the previous owner put in the firewall for a heater that he later took out because it was not original. This is a better picture of the color. Take a look at the glass bowl. Thankfully the tank has none of that substance in it. I have cleaned out the bowl and the petcock which would not move. I am looking forward to getting the engine running. We have to do some welding on the firewall so I am not going to put gas in the tank but use an external fuel tank. Last edited by jxnslotcar; 06-22-2013 at 08:09 AM.

06-22-2013, 08:38 AM	#27
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop The wheels are not correct for the year as the fronts are 17's and the rears are 19 inch. I was going through Mac's site and had to go to a newer year to find the same size as what is on the truck. I think they are going to stay with what wheels are on it. This is not going to be a "show" truck sitting on a trailer but a "driver". It has sat in a garage long enough and it is time it gets back on the open road. This is not a rust bucket and has very little filler. I have gone over the whole truck with a magnet and paint thickness gauge. I have only found a couple of dollops of filler on one bottom corner of a door and another on the bottom edge of the cab-both on the left side. The paint is bubbling in those areas. Whomever painted it used a blue metallic paint that has some flip flop in it. I have seen a green tinge in it Depends on the light and how it is reflecting on the paint. Even though it was not original, it was probably a good looking "custom" paint job when it was done. So what do you think of it? It should be real easy to get it back in shape and that is why I am thinking 4-6 weeks to get it done so that he will have time to drive it this year. We are going to discuss painting it on Monday. They asked me if I would like to do it and I really want to be involved in painting it. We are going to be doing what we were going to do which is finish it up but before we do that, it would need to come back apart to drive it. If they go through with the repaint, I have already told Steve that the only way I want to do it is if we take the time to disassemble the truck. That would entail taking the radiator and surround out (headlights, horn, ect), fenders and running boards off as well as the bed. And maybe even taking the cab off of it. That way the frame could be cleaned up and coated. I am not looking to a complete teardown and a total nuts and bolts restoration. I am not sure what I would call but it would not be that.

06-22-2013, 09:02 AM	#28
TinCup Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok. Posts: 1,977	Re: "New" project in my shop Looks like a great project. Take your time and start a punch list of what you want to do. Too many folks are overwhelmed by projects like this. But make a plan and you will get there. __________________ Oklahoma City Model A Restorers Group.

06-22-2013, 02:49 PM	#29
spike Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jackson Michigan Posts: 245	Re: "New" project in my shop Send that 2000.00 for parts to snyders or bratons and get quality instead of junk.You are the one that has to fit these parts and live with them...goood luck and looking to see the progress in the furture.....

06-22-2013, 03:27 PM	#30
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,520	Re: "New" project in my shop Couple of things... 4-6 weeks seems pretty optimistic. Generally I think you are going to find more to slow you down as you progress. Best wishes to you none-the-less!! I don't believe it has 19' wheels on the back. Are you certain it does? As far as welding on the firewall, the backside of the tank does not touch the firewall except at the very top so you really do not have any worries there HOWEVER, might I suggest that you should be flushing the gas tank anyway, so while you are doing that, consider on the last flush or so to fill the tank with 10 gallons of water, and then do your firewall welding if that is in your plan. (Personally based on what I see of the truck I would not bother with the firewall until a full frame-up is being done, For now just cut two circles of sheetmetal and place them on each side of the cowl with a screw through the center of the two circles. That will close the hole and be much faster) One other question, if you did talk Steve into a total repaint, how do you propose of getting both layers of paint (both paint jobs) off, --and what paint to you propose to go back with? __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

06-22-2013, 06:57 PM	#32
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,520	Re: "New" project in my shop Where you gonna buy the lacquer? Most lacquer is either real cheap, --or REAL expensive. Any urethane over the top of lacquer is going to cause all kinds of lifting issues even if you use a sealer. I guess my position if it were in my shop is I would not do any paint, OR it would be come apart and totally be stripped using media or chemical immersion. What you need to figure out is where do you stop on a 82 y.o. project? Are you gonna take the roof material off when you paint it? What about the visor? What about the rear fender not fitting? What about the condition of that tailgate? Maybe it is the pictures but to me the back of the cab looks pretty wavy. So does the radiator apron. Maybe your customer doesn't care about fixing that stuff?? If you are serious about hitting your 4-6 week window, I would probably suggest forgoing the repaint and suggest cleaning & polishing what is there. As you are, you a figuring approximately 200 hours of work. I don't know your shop rate but at just $20 an hour, that comes in at $4,000.00 + parts. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

06-22-2013, 10:01 PM	#34
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,520	Re: "New" project in my shop From where I am sitting, if you have spent the last 3 days plotting a plan, then your time is already at the 25 hours they wanted to spend. Now what do you do? Are you going to charge the customer for your time spent? If not, how will you ever amortize those costs into the future labor? This is probably the last that we should be talking of this publicly but let me make a few observations. If your reputation can stand sending out a $2,500 paint job, then by all means do it. From my perspective, very few shops could even do that job for anything less than double the amount your customer is wanting to spend, ...and that is NOT pricing a show paint job either. All too well I know of folks who want to spend way less than what some things costs but sometimes reality must be recognized. While it is easy to say you cannot afford to turn away work, the brutal truth is you cannot afford to do it in a substandard manner either. I would venture a guess that you are underestimating your labor time on this project because you are excited to have it in your shop to work on. From my vantage point, this is a dangerous position for a businessman to be in if he needs to be profitable. If they were at a $3,500 budget, and you had figured $2k in parts and 25 hours of labor, then you had better hope all goes extremely well or you will likely be working for free. While you may consider it an honor to be working on that truck, just remember that "honor" does not pay employee wages or business overhead. Again, I do wish you well and am more than willing to assist you any way I can with your project either off-line or by telephone. . __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

06-22-2013, 11:47 PM	#35
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: "New" project in my shop i agree with brent your in over your head on this job. no way your doing a frame off paint job for 3500 parts and labor. your labor rate on project 1 is 60.00 per hr if you earning 1500. @25 hrs labor. how many hours labor do you think youll have into the body and paint? then figure materials and not just paint materials but mechanical materials needed to do this. if you cant afford to turn work away can you afford to work weeks for free??? sorry but am i missing something here

06-23-2013, 12:22 AM	#36
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop I truly appreciate what you are saying and thank you for your offer to help. Please let me say you are misunderstanding where I am at with this job. You must think I am a total idiot for you guys to say something like that. I have spent the last 3 days (not all day long) looking at this truck, reading threads, ect and I believe this is something that I can not charge for. It did not interfere with what else I had going on. I was learning about a Model A truck-kinda hard to explain but I can not charge a customer for time for me to learn-whatever the reason is. I really hate typing on a computer rather than talking face to face as straight words do not always come across as they were meant. I say this because when I read your wods my first reaction is to take offense because it seems like even tho you may have read what I have typed, you really did not understand what I have said. I thought I had made myself clear as to why I want to do this truck. I have been in this business for a long time. I really don't get "excited" by much any more. I could see a younger guy getting excited because it might be a chance for him to get recognized or to prove something. I don't feel like I have anything to prove other than I would like to learn something "new" to me That was the gist of this thread to begin with. Not anything other than that. I am not looking for more customers on here nor am I trying to prove anything. I just wanted to learn about something new which just happens to be something old. Believe it or not, I AM an expert in a lot of different types of cars just not Model A's. For instance if your fuel injected computer controlled engine needs help, then feel free to give me a call. You should try estimating an electrical driveability problem in a flood vehicle. Especially when you have to factor in the costs of the diagnostic equipment needed to work on todays vehicles. The oldest vehicle I have in the shop is a 1954 Chrysler New Yorker. I just coluld not help myself with that car as I installed an entirely new fuel system and electrical system so that I could then install the fuel injected drivetrain in it. I still need to do some odds and ends to it so that it can be driven and then I will need to paint it as well. After the metal mods are done on it.I have not yet decided what colors yet but thinking a medium dark silver metallic with deep metallic red accents. I am thinking it would look good with the chrome wire wheels I have for it. It is an unusual car to do all that with but will be fun. I want to help an older man than me finally drive the truck again. It is not about the money-never was. someday that older man may be me needing help. he is ,after all, only around 25 yrs older than me. Enough said. Last edited by jxnslotcar; 06-23-2013 at 12:28 AM.

06-23-2013, 12:40 AM	#37
jxnslotcar Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Jackson,Michigan Posts: 26	Re: "New" project in my shop BTW,I guess you missed where I said that we are going to get together on Monday to order the original parts list that I came up with and also to discuss this paint job. I did not say I was going to do the paint job within the constraints . I did look at the truck, came up with a plan of action, talked with the paint supplier about a couple of options, ect. I wanted to get some good advice from here. I normally do these things before I sit down with a customer about a job like this. Regardless of whether the paint gets done by me or someone else, I will be doing the other so that he can at least drive it on the road this year. Your comments about me are kinda insulting. This thread will probably be locked by the mods now and with it being my 1st thread...... Not Cool

06-23-2013, 06:36 AM	#38
James Rogers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Asheville,NC Posts: 3,104	Re: "New" project in my shop First, all the advice is good and exactly what you are asking for. The mods are not going to lock this unless it gets out of hand and from here I don't see that. Second, why would any successful shop let a customer dictate price? Customers would be trying to get all the work free if possible so, you need to just tell them the price and like Brent said, let them walk if they don't like the price. Low prices may get you work but, it won't pay your bills. As for the firewall, this might help. http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com...allRepair.html Looks like someone made those holes with a pick. It will take some time and money to repair correctly. __________________ http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

06-23-2013, 07:39 AM	#39
QGolden Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alton, NH Posts: 1,231	Re: "New" project in my shop Jxnslotcar, Don't get uptight. You asked for thoughts and advice, and you got it. You got it honest and heartfelt. We don't always hear what we want to, or are expecting to hear when we seek advice. Terry, James, Mitch and others here do nothing but eat, sleep, and drink these cars. They have forgotten more about Model A's than most of us will Learn in our lifetimes. These three who have responded to you have shops, and work on these cars for their livelihood. They are accountable to many customers for the quality of their work. Personally, I hang on every nugget they are willing to share because I am getting priceless "free" information, they freely share from 10's of 1000's of hours of experience, and ask me for nothing in return. If you wish to infer an insult from any of the comments that have been here, then I think you are alone, and will be. We would all love to see this truck get on the road and bring a little joy to an old mans heart, that is what it is all about. If you ask for advice, take it, process it, gleen off what applies to your plan, and move on. That is my advice, but you did not ask for it, so do with it what you will. __________________ It's not what people think they know that will hurt them, it is what they think they know that aint so! -Mark Twain. It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.- Unknown

06-23-2013, 08:18 AM	#40
Mitch//pa BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks County, PA Posts: 11,454	Re: "New" project in my shop i am truly sorry if i offended you, maybe when i read into post #32 and you were putting dollars to labor time , parts and total costs, plus on the post where you stated that you have other employees to work on the truck, and that you cant afford to let customers slip away, that it was more of a shop job than a charity case. i have a big heart also and do things to help people out at times also. maybe with my own labor but definetly not paying employees also to work on it. so that being said maybe i got off track a little on your intentions. enjoy working on the mans truck keep us updated on the progress, and just make sure the owners know that they will need to shell out more than 3500 for parts and materials to do a frame off even if its not a nut & bolt. your a good guy to donate your time the owner will be truly estatic when he see's the truck finished.