no numbers now what?

[silversink]

Lifted the body on the 29 coup today to show the state of Oregon the thing belongs to me and get plates so I can drive it. Low and behold the numbers left the top of the frame 550 years ago or so. The top of the frame is pitted real bad where they were supposed to be, I cleaned the top off really good and couldn't find anything. Ready to sell this thing and forget it ever was here.

[Steve Plucker]

If the frame is that pitted, it might not be any good! Did not the officer provide to you a way to raise the numbers off of a frame in that condition? Seems to me there is a way to do it.

Pluck

[clo2jim]

If this is a Canadian built Model A, the Serial numbers were not stamped on the frame starting mid-1929

[Mitch//pa]

they made you do that in oregon? thats insane
stamp your own

[eagle]

When the state cannot be reasonable, its time to take matters into your own hands. Get a set of stamps from Harbor Freight and restamp it.

[Steve Wastler]

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As Mitch says, stamp your own, stamp sets run about 160, get the correct font, stamp them light near where you and the officer were looking, smear some paint over it so it stands out/disguise it. I have read the number has been seen on the outside or inside the rail on a few frames.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd also do as Mitch said.

[C26Pinelake]

I would never stamp your own. It is illegal and you could be prosecuted. Do it the proper way and you will have nothing to worry about! Wayne

[PC/SR]

I agree, don't stamp your own. Those guys will spot it, and it is a crap shoot that the number you stamp is already in use. Go the DMV, or the highway patrol up, humbly, asking for help and what can be done, with your hat in one hand and check book in the other. Show them the money and somebody will get things moving.

[silversink]

is there any way to trace the point of sale. The coup did spend most of its life near the border in northern Washington----maybe it is a Canadian born A. The title number shows April for a date

[Tom Wesenberg]

Is a new title being generated?
Or is the good title being transferred?
If you have a title with matching engine number, then you are restoring the frame number. Just another step in the restoration process.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by clo2jim

If this is a Canadian built Model A, the Serial numbers were not stamped on the frame starting mid-1929

Question. Don't you mean before mid 29?

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Is a new title being generated?
Or is the good title being transferred?
If you have a title with matching engine number, then you are restoring the frame number. Just another step in the restoration process.

yep and i dont think the engine number even matters.. as long as you have a title with a vin
most engines have been swapped out anyways

[Rowdy]

That may be true where you are, but here all that matters pre-1948 is the engine number. Dumb law as written. Luckily it is widely ignored or unknown by the deputy's that do the inspecting and most will inspect whatever numbers you present them. Rod

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

If you are really interested in this car in lieu of selling it or getting rid of it , I think if you continue to explain and give:

1. More details on the partly known history of your vehicle; and,

2. Prior known title transfers of your vehicle; and,

3. More information and details about your written title; and,

4. Answers to your questions thus far from OMV/DMV and/or others,

you may get some positive helpful suggestions on "who" to ask, and "what" to ask to get your project moving in a positive direction.

[Steve Wastler]

Give them too much info and you're going to screw yourself. If you had to remove the body
To 'prove' ts yours you must already have a title. What else would they compare a number to? Stamp away, they are looking at a car 85 years old, as long as the number matches they won't know the difference

[Mitch//pa]

use a dead blow hammer

[silversink]

I am the third owner, I have a title that is with the car, I have the original matching numbers engine (not in the car), I have paperwork from the late 30s that covers oil changes, registrations, plus after the car was parked in 1972 the owner bought tags and never put them on the car up until 1984, I was told by the State Police the number would have to be inspected before the Washington title could be changed to an Oregon title( same story at DMV), I tried to explain the eng. no. was the dominate no. and the frame was nothing but a number matching what ever number was on the eng. Been trying to do this on the up and up but now maybe its going to get a little shady. The title I got with the car is a legal not a bought title I'm thinking of putting the original eng. back in even though it doesn't run and call out the state poice again for one last try at doing it the right way.

[C26Pinelake]

Certainly a better idea Than stamping your own numbers. If you stamp your own you could be charged criminally with fraud and have your vehicle confiscated. Stamping your own numbers would be very, very foolish ! Wayne

[clo2jim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by clo2jim
If this is a Canadian built Model A, the Serial numbers were not stamped on the frame starting mid-1929

Question. Don't you mean before mid 29?

Actually from the Canadian A's Section in the Judging Standards:
"The manufacturing date was usually on the left side until approximately September 1928.

From late 1928 through 1931 patent data plates were not used, even though holes were drilled in the firewall."

[Brentwood Bob]

This has worked for me on several pitted frames:
Take a no. 2 lead pencil and some tracing paper(loose leaf notebook paper works) and do a rubbing.
If there are numbers you will see them materialize, wire brush the area first.
Did this on a frame that had been in the barn with rams(sheep). The other frame unknown but to the naked eye no legible numbers could be seen.
I repeated this for the local police officer who filled out the dmv forms.
Bob

[Steve Plucker]

What is the assembly plant code?

Pluck

[Willie Krash]

Go to a different DMV. I have never found the Oregon DMV to be unreasonable.
Contact your state rep too.
A friend sent a letter of concern to the Oregon gov, the gov (kate Brown) sent him a handwritten letter, signed and mailed, just last week.
Restamping? If they give no choice and as far as I know the state police do not install Vin tags.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Serious Suggestion if you have "any" doubts:

1. Appears you have the proper legal paper work .... which is only a part of your battle plan ....... been there ..... done that ..... and after forwarding same to DMV as requested, I received a love letter from DMV's Nikita Khruschev top mad dog in a dress who would not budge for years.

2. Just stay calm, and remember that the title will never come from the local policeman ...... or from the local lady to whom you present your paper work ....... it has to be reviewed and approved by some individual at DMV headquarters, and hopefully a special knowledgeable supervisor who may be familiar with the legalities.

3. DMV "may" have one or two technicians who are somewhat familiar with vintage vehicle motor number title transfers; however, in 2015, many will not know what you are talking about and may be reluctant to act on same at local level.

4. Prior to calling for an actual vehicle inspection, and prior to sending "any" paperwork whatsoever, I would try Step 1:

A. Call DMV again and ask for a DMV representative at State Headquarters level who is familiar with transferring titles "without" modern VIN numbers and ask what procedures and what paperwork is needed when no VIN number is available ....... do "not" mention your not having a frame number or that a frame number may or may not be available ..... just "listen" and take notes.

B. If it sounds positive, say nothing after "listening" ..... get the person's name and telephone number and get ready for Step 2.

5. For the past 53 years, every time I had to have a Government Official's approval, it always depended on "who" does the reviewing ..... stay professional.

6. Also bought a Model A Town Sedan in Texas which came from New York with no title ...... only a New York registration number and no Texas title ...... contacted one nice DMV official .... it was easy-peasy .... piece of cake ..... just had talked to a different DMV Headquarters' Official with a "can do" personality.

7. Let us know what they recommend.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Might add to response #24 I had to go to Step 5 with my difficult 1930 Coupe title and did not have to use my military 533 MOS or my supervisory amphibious 1331 MOS.

After the dust settled, the DMV Headquarters Supervisor instructed me to "please" stamp my Model A title's engine/frame number somewhere on my coupe's chassis where it could be easily seen next time by any future deputy inspector so the body would not have to be lifted to verify said number.

You can bet I will personally stamp this original legal number where directed, on the center of the cross member near the seat, under the floor board.

[Charlie Stephens]

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Originally Posted by silversink

I am the third owner, I have a title that is with the car, I have the original matching numbers engine (not in the car), I have paperwork from the late 30s that covers oil changes, registrations, plus after the car was parked in 1972 the owner bought tags and never put them on the car up until 1984, I was told by the State Police the number would have to be inspected before the Washington title could be changed to an Oregon title( same story at DMV), I tried to explain the eng. no. was the dominate no. and the frame was nothing but a number matching what ever number was on the eng. Been trying to do this on the up and up but now maybe its going to get a little shady. The title I got with the car is a legal not a bought title I'm thinking of putting the original eng. back in even though it doesn't run and call out the state poice again for one last try at doing it the right way.

Sounds like it is time to put the original engine back in the car and try again.

Charlie Stephens

[Charlville]

When I imported my car it had the engine number as the VIN on the PA title (legal) So I fitted a new chassis plate with the engine number and all was well. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the engine number is king for early cars. I don't see anything illegal in this method as opposed to stamping which I think could get you in a world of pain? But then what do I know

[H. L. Chauvin]

The outcome of "every" single legal decision experienced by an individual Government Employee interpreting a rule and rendering a legal decision will "always" be pure conjecture regardless of any State's written laws.

Today's members of our U. S. Supreme Court, (also Government Employees), cannot even render a 100% ruling on whether or not John Doe can marry his loving mule ........ whether it is male or female ..... Model A titles are no different.

Anyone in their right mind can only guess at the unknown differences of opinions and interpretations of individual Government Employees rendering a decision on obtaining a Model A title with correct legal paper work, with no number on the chassis, and with the "original" motor not installed.

Just very calmly try this Government Slot Machine, call DMV, "listen", offer nothing, and let us know ..... and please never give up.

[Steve Wastler]

Since you already have the ball rolling and they have asked you to pull the body to see the 'stamped' number in the frame, dropping the engine in, original to the car or not, ain't gonna help you.

If they want to see a frame number, give them one to see, it's not shady, nor underhanded, everything you have is legit, you just can't see the 'stamped' number. There is no box on the frame to have a pinpoint location. Get the correct font stamp set, not from HF and lightly stamp it. They just want to see the number. It ain't like you're covering up a murder!

Here is s pic of one of my frames, not too pitted, but the only number visible is an 8. You can bet your a** when time comes this frame will have the correct font serial stamped in it!

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

As Mitch says, stamp your own, stamp sets run about 160, get the correct font, stamp them light near where you and the officer were looking, smear some paint over it so it stands out/disguise it. I have read the number has been seen on the outside or inside the rail on a few frames.

And unfortunately what you are suggesting is very much illegal.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

And unfortunately what you are suggesting is very much illegal.

Thank you, of course it is illegal ! It is like telling someone how to make moonshine! You have no risk because when they are caught they pay the penalty ! Do it right and you don't have any worries! Wayne

[Steve Wastler]

This is just too funny!!

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

yep and i dont think the engine number even matters.. as long as you have a title with a vin
most engines have been swapped out anyways

Generally true if you buy within the same state. In Ohio, if you buy an out Ohio vehicle, you have to have an "Out of State inspection" of the VIN. My car was title in PA, and so they had to see the VIN (Block number). Ohio permits car dealers to perform the inspect and depending upon their mood may actually do it... In the end, a little greasing of the gears in this arena helps

[Skeezixx]

My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.

[ursus]

H.L. Chauvin has some great advice here for dealing with the DMV that is applicable here in Oregon as well. My experience is that you will find a DMV office located in a rural area to be easier to deal with than one in Portland, Eugene, or (gasp!) Salem. If they give you a hard time, go to another DMV office. Unfortunately, your situation is complicated by the transfer of title from another state, which can raise questions in the mind of the DMV official. Having an engine number that matches the Washington title is very helpful.

I spoke with a guy that has restored several Model-A's that were pulled from barns or assembled from parts. Two cars had no title or currently traceable Oregon registration but he did have a bill of sale on both. The first time he went to the DMV and the official noted in a book that Ford stamped numbers on the frame and engine. Because the car was assembled from parts and had no engine number (it had a Model-B engine), he assigned a new DMV registration number and attached an adhesive backed metallic tag to the driver's side motor mount and issued a new title. This was back in the 1990's so that may not be the practice any more.

With the second car he took the DMV's lead on the matter and stamped the engine number into a visible part of the driver's side motor mount . At the DMV he pointed out this number as the frame number which was good enough for the DMV. Again, this was in a small town where the DMV office was easier to work with. The current reality is that restorers these days are having to deal more often with cars having no matching frame and engine numbers and may end up with a only a salvage title on an otherwise well-restored vehicle.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Skeezixx

My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.

Guess we'll be seeing you behind bars, where you will be stamping out our new license plates.

[1930artdeco]

When I registered my car in Oregon years ago they just used the engine number and gave us a sticker for the door jamb. Not sure what dad said to DMV but when moved her to Ca. I told them that is what Or. gave me and they took it.

Mike

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Skeezixx

My number is stamped on the firewall just where any contemporary inspector might expect it to be. Unless they are armed with a copy of The Judging Standards I should be able to open my hood and point to it to everyone's satisfaction.

i'll be a model A buddy and drop you off some VAS..

[ronn]

just for the record-HF has a set of stamps for 15 buckaroos.........................

[ronn]

PS looks like half of us are going to Sing Sing and the other half to heaven..............


hahahahahahaha!

[Rowdy]

I agree. If it were mine the number would already be restamped without hesitation or conversation. Rod

[H. L. Chauvin]

No doubt many things may have worked many times in the past for some vintage vehicle owners to try stamping engines and stamping frames with made up body numbers to get by; but if one has proper legal documents, trying to do this honestly and professionally can never ever hurt.

In my particular rare case, (because of a very gross error years back by an uninformed DMV Supervisor Official), once DMV Headquarters was subsequently legally convinced beyond any reasonable doubt, both the State Trooper & a subsequent DMV Supervisor requested that I stamp the original legal title/chassis/motor number in plain view on my frame so the body would never have to be removed again if this car is sold.

[BlueSunoco]

[QUOTE=H. L. Chauvin;1112861]Serious Suggestion if you have "any" doubts:

1. Appears you have the proper legal paper work .... which is only a part of your battle plan ....... been there ..... done that ..... and after forwarding same to DMV as requested, I received a love letter from DMV's Nikita Khruschev top mad dog in a dress who would not budge for years.


H.L. you crack me up!!!!! I'm still laughing at the thought of this image! And, you are spot-on in describing these people

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

I went to DMV exactly one week sago and calmly sat eye to eye with a DMV Supervisor lady.

After this meeting last week, I knew my long awaited title was coming soon.

Received my March 1930 Coupe Registration Certificate today in the mail.

The extremely alert, brilliant, nice, lovely, affectionate, wonderful, beautiful, intelligent, compassionate DMV lady called to tell me my title will be coming shortly in a few days.

The official Date of title transfer indicated: December 30, 1984 ..... 31 years ago.

Purchase Price On Registration: $25.00

Long and very complicated title story ...... this March 1930 Coupe has been in my possession since February 1958 ..... 57 years.

DMV 101: Never give up no matter what happens.

[Model A Man]

Two years as go I moved to Oregon from California and drove in one at a time three model A's and a 1930 Chrysler and had no problems. They used the motor number on all 4 cars.

[PepeLoco]

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Silversink. Since you are from Oregon and we all want you to follow all laws, here are some other state laws still no the books in your state you may not be familiar with:

Drivers must yield to pedestrians who are standing on the sidewalk.
One may not test their physical endurance while driving a car on a highway.
It is illegal to place a container filled with human fecal matter on the side of any highway.
Babies may not be carried on the running boards of a car.
Drivers may not pump their own gas.
A door on a car may not be left open longer than is necessary.
An adult may not show a minor any piece of classical artwork which depicts sexual excitement.
Dishes must drip dry.
The “Peer Review Statute” prohibits you from finding out details of any written or oral discussion about your medical treatment.
It is illegal to whisper “dirty” things in your lover’s ear during sex.
Ice cream may not be eaten on Sundays.
It is illegal to buy or sell marijuana, but it is legal to smoke it on your own property.
One may not bathe without wearing “suitable clothing,” i.
Canned corn is not to be used as bait for fishing.

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/oregon

[Tinbasher]

This is just a test of patience. I just went through this in Ontario Cdn. I went in to the DOT. office and got them to give me the information they required. Then over about 4 visits, I was able to get them all of the info they required. Even though I had the original invoice from when I bought the car I had to get an appraisal. (And a letter from my lawyer. Visit 3) Of course this was of a greater value so now the Tax was 4 times what it should have been. Visit 4 paid them there tax plus there tax on the tax and the fee for the ownership and all was good.
Go Figure Eh!

John Poole

[theHIGHLANDER]

I would never stamp my real serial/title number on the frame of the car/truck...































































as far any of you know...

[bobusnick104]

I stamped my own numbers on the bottom side of the frame. No way was I going to lift the body and find out there were no numbers or not matching ones. I bought the car in New Hampshire and there wasn't a title in that state. PA needed an inspection mechanic to verify the numbers. I made the numbers look like they were there forever and took a picture.

[Simonpie]

I recently transferred a Washington A into Oregon. It had no numbers anywhere. The number on the title was obviously one created by the Washington DMV. The State Patrol created a new number and put a sticker on the frame. They told me I should stamp the number, because the stickers eventually fall off.

I also once had a trailer that had sat in the sun too long and the VIN sticker faded to nothing. The DMV told me to steel stamp the number near the sticker.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Simonpie

I recently transferred a Washington A into Oregon. It had no numbers anywhere. The number on the title was obviously one created by the Washington DMV. The State Patrol created a new number and put a sticker on the frame. They told me I should stamp the number, because the stickers eventually fall off.

I also once had a trailer that had sat in the sun too long and the VIN sticker faded to nothing. The DMV told me to steel stamp the number near the sticker.

Stamping on instruction by a government official is different than what was suggested above. Wayne

[30Ford]

Same S... here in Canada Just went to a different DMV and not a problem

[bobpo1]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

FWIW:

I went to DMV exactly one week sago and calmly sat eye to eye with a DMV Supervisor lady.

After this meeting last week, I knew my long awaited title was coming soon.

Received my March 1930 Coupe Registration Certificate today in the mail.

The extremely alert, brilliant, nice, lovely, affectionate, wonderful, beautiful, intelligent, compassionate DMV lady called to tell me my title will be coming shortly in a few days.

The official Date of title transfer indicated: December 30, 1984 ..... 31 years ago.

Purchase Price On Registration: $25.00

Long and very complicated title story ...... this March 1930 Coupe has been in my possession since February 1958 ..... 57 years.

DMV 101: Never give up no matter what happens.

First of all, are you sure that was a "lady" ? Today you can't be sure at all.....!

[bobpo1]

When I was in the Homicide Squad, the Auto Squad was next door and they used a chemical (don't know the name), that lifts the stamped numbers after they've been ground off. It picks up on the compressed metal below the surface. They can do the same thing with ground-off serial numbers on firearms. I've seen it done and it is impressive. Check with a PD that has an Auto Squad.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi,

I agree with the caution warnings implied in Wayne's reply no. 51 and others he entered above about concerns and risks with casually stamping frames with "any" valid or invalid motor numbers whether made up, or even officially indicated on one's legal title.

Today, vin numbers, gun registration numbers, etc., etc., are being shared in different data bases by state officials, federal officials, & local officials.

If and when OMV/DMV officials instruct owners to or gives permission to "stamp" registration/title numbers on vehicles, they do so "after" a person's title number is unique, has been cleared by them, and no other such number pops up in their data base.

One can only imagine what happens if and when a "NEW" number appears in "any" data base indicating that two (2) people share the same vehicle registration number, gun registration number, social security number, or "WOW" an income tax Federal I.D. number.

Pawn shops now have had gun numbers for years ..... a friend had his gun stolen over 25 years ago .... it showed up in a pawn shop 25 years later miles away and it was reported to Federal Officials .... the guy who brought it in, we hear was later handcuffed, and was gasping for air in the middle of a pile of deep do-do.

If one wants to read his Model A magazines behind bars, just buy some stencils and open a new shady business entitled: "Joe's Vehicle Vin Number Stamping and Title Shop."

[BlueSunoco]

Originally Posted by bobpo1

When I was in the Homicide Squad, the Auto Squad was next door and they used a chemical (don't know the name), that lifts the stamped numbers after they've been ground off. It picks up on the compressed metal below the surface. They can do the same thing with ground-off serial numbers on firearms. I've seen it done and it is impressive. Check with a PD that has an Auto Squad.

Never thought of this, good idea worth a try.

[H. L. Chauvin]

This compressed metal numerical verification method mentioned in reply #54 has been around for at least over 25 years ..... not all local Government agencies have had this numerical identification capability in the past ....... have no idea if locals have it at present .... just heard it can work in "some" situations.

[Mike V. Florida]

Anyone ever heard of a model A'er getting busted for stamping his own numbers, or is it just that no one would ever do that?

[leakers]

If it were me I would take it back to Washington, I am 7000 miles away in New Zealand, but from memory Dayton, OR is only about an hour from Vancouver Washington. If you have to have a confirmed address there, surely you must know someone who can get the title sorted in Washington with suitable paperwork and a title listing the visible numbers.
Then you can "buy" it from that person with a title and a bill of Sale!!
Or you can just keep it stored until October and I will give you $500 bucks for the , vin less , title less , useless, un registerable, uninsureable piece of junk!
I need a few fillers for the containers I am sending home to NZ.

[30ccpickup]

So what many of you are saying, with a title and a matching engine, it would be easy to steal and plate a Model A and claim it as your own. You just need a set of stamps, an unknowing to vintage car cop and a ditsy young lady at the DMV.

No wonder we have posts "Car was stolen"

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Anyone ever heard of a model A'er getting busted for stamping his own numbers, or is it just that no one would ever do that?

No there are quite a few people in this thread suggestion to perform illegal activities, and find it amusing when people disagree with them.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Franchise_24

No there are quite a few people in this thread suggestion to perform illegal activities, and find it amusing when people disagree with them.

I'm restoring the original numbers. I'm not changing numbers to commit fraud.

How about a frame change? A person then has a frame that may have numbers registered to another car on the road. The same goes for an engine change. Many engine numbers are ground off and changed during an engine rebuild.

[mshmodela]

Heck if there are no longer numbers on the frame then that's a problem as well... Odds of that number registered in your state or another is low.. even if so, it will match the block...

[Steve Wastler]

The funny thing is how you make nothing into something! Speeding, jaywalking, crossing a double yellow line, all illegal, and I'm sure none of you have ever done these! Get over it and let this guy do what he's got to do to get another A on the road.

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

The funny thing is how you make nothing into something! Speeding, jaywalking, crossing a double yellow line, all illegal, and I'm sure none of you have ever done these! Get over it and let this guy do what he's got to do to get another A on the road.

When you jaywalk they don't take or confiscate your car when you are caught. You also don't end up with a criminal record. To suggest that someone should commit a criminal offense is absolutely ludicrous ! Wayne

[Steve Plucker]

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I can see that this thread is going to be deleted real quick.

Pluck

[caboose]

Originally Posted by bobpo1

When I was in the Homicide Squad, the Auto Squad was next door and they used a chemical (don't know the name), that lifts the stamped numbers after they've been ground off. It picks up on the compressed metal below the surface. They can do the same thing with ground-off serial numbers on firearms. I've seen it done and it is impressive. Check with a PD that has an Auto Squad.

Haven't read all the responses to see if this was already mentioned: coin collectors use some chemical concoction to get the dates on coins legible.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

When you jaywalk they don't take or confiscate your car when you are caught. You also don't end up with a criminal record. To suggest that someone should commit a criminal offense is absolutely ludicrous ! Wayne

Illegal is illegal, nice double standard!

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Illegal is illegal, nice double standard!

It is not a double standard, it is an exercise in common sense which seems to be lacking! If his car is confiscated will you replace it for him ! Wayne

[LopezCarguy]

The frame numbers are not visable because the frame welting, splash aprons and body are over them, if you take these off and can see frame where body sat the numbers can be recovered with a acid/electrolysis process the state patrol uses in Washington state..I have had them do it in past..

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by C26Pinelake

It is not a double standard, it is an exercise in common sense which seems to be lacking! If his car is confiscated will you replace it for him ! Wayne

So you're saying it's better to cause an accident or get run over by a car than to show the MVA what they want to see?

[Franchise_24]

I think this thread just needs to be put to rest and shut down. Not everyone is going to agree on the methods and it should not be left up promoting illegal activities.

[mngrant]

It appears from the postings the only thing you have not done is inquire about help from a local club. There is probably a member who has dealt with this before. Just another suggestion, I hope it all works out.

[silversink]

I am in a club and know all the shady illegal ways to get a title through the DMV, I was trying to do it on the up and up. I have a legal title, Bills of sale from the last three owners, registrations from the same, it's just crazy the hoops you have to go through to get a legitimate title. I could buy n Ore. title, change numbers, and be on my way in an hour ,but would be looking over my shoulder when ever I took it out on the road, all of which it may come to in the end. I will try for a couple more months to get it done right including putting it on a trailer and hitting DMVs all over the country until I get the job done . An other option is title it to a Washington at a relative's add. I truly do appreciate the help on here and suggestions that were suggested. I have ordered a set of stamps( just to have because of the price) and made an appt. with DMV to see what the options are at this point. I will keep you posted as to what had to be done so no one has to go through this blindly.

[Mitch//pa]

i like the titling it in other state idea then transfer back if the body was not already removed.
but now your beyond that...

in PA if you have a reconstructed branded title all it takes to get a clean one is transfer it to NJ then back to PA and its clean...

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Silversink,

FWIW: Additional advice and humble opinion:

Your title request is far different from mine mentioned above, however, often when seeking questionable permission from any Government agency, (like no VIN number), be prepared for the first answer of NO".

Rather than create a fuss, stay very calm and please ask, "who" can help.

Within DMV higher headquarters there will be at least one person with integrity who will admire your honesty and unyielding determination to correctly obtain your title.

This World is known to have lots of shady characters trying to jump in bed with their neighbor's wife while the neighbor's husband is away ..... but we will always have a few good people with profound respect for their neighbors.

I much later learned that some DMV's have a section known as "Special Permits Section" with hired employees who encounter extremely difficult title applications everyday.

If your state has such a DMV Section, ask for an appointment to visit "in person" because phone deals are usually never as productive to convey your honesty and integrity ..... we all have gifts to read faces, eyes and emotions.

Then, stay calm, stay professional, bring "copies" of all of your paperwork ...... one
favorable first comment with any "compassionate" Government employee is "I need Help."

Per your sincere positive replies thus far, and the documents that you have in hand, an analysis of your character tells me to advise you to do it "your" way ...... your Model A title at DMV is waiting for you ....... just kindly ask.

[Rowdy]

As advised by a Nebraska State Patrolman all you need to do is satisfy the minimum of paperwork. Too much info will only complicate the process. I was fortunate to have a numbers matching chassis from a fordor that was titled to the Briggs body tag number. So the engine and frame number were never in the system. Using this chassis for the Delivery was a no brainer and easy to get a bonded title. The three years on the bonding fell off last year so now I can get a title that will read as original. Not bad for the $225 it cost. The hard part was getting it all assembled for an inspection and a picture showing one side and the front. Rod

[H. L. Chauvin]

Appears any clear photograph showing and identifying one's Model A always helps.

One can always expect every Model A title situation to be different ..... different State laws, different DMV personnel.

While getting my title last week, my Coupe's engine, transmission, and body was, and still is ............. totally disassembled.

I only had one photo of my Coupe taken 46 years ago in 1969.

My wife told me this photo alone will get a title ...... she was right.

Picture of me, my two rabbit dogs, two shotguns, (one of which was an 84 year old 1931, Model 31 pump Remington that I still use), and 10 dead swamp rabbits displayed out front from a short morning's hunt.

FWIW: As predicted by my wife, this nice DMV lady told me she "definitely" wanted a copy of my 1969 8-1/2" x 11" photo. LOL

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Illegal is illegal, nice double standard!

Welcome Back Steve You Did'nt Miss A Thing

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Silversink,

Just thanks for your sincere last sentence in your very straightforward reply #75,

"I will keep you posted as to what had to be done so no one has to go through this blindly."

No doubt your overall positive attitude and your willingness to help others by offering to share your title acquisition experience with "no numbers" will be greatly appreciated more than one can ever imagine for years to come for many Model A owners today and in the future.

[silversink]

Update-----I got a body tag from the suppliers and had the number engraved on it, riveted it to the firewall, Went to the DMV and played stupid and let the professional locate the numbers. He searched for a min. and located the tag on the firewall next to the stock tag , he proudly said I Located it , wrote the numbers down and it was done.

Thanks for all your help ---I hope this helps someone else( I forgot to say I painted over the tag so it looked like the rest of the firewall).

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by silversink

i am the third owner, i have a title that is with the car, i have the original matching numbers engine (not in the car), i have paperwork from the late 30s that covers oil changes, registrations, plus after the car was parked in 1972 the owner bought tags and never put them on the car up until 1984, i was told by the state police the number would have to be inspected before the washington title could be changed to an oregon title( same story at dmv), i tried to explain the eng. No. Was the dominate no. And the frame was nothing but a number matching what ever number was on the eng. Been trying to do this on the up and up but now maybe its going to get a little shady. The title i got with the car is a legal not a bought title i'm thinking of putting the original eng. Back in even though it doesn't run and call out the state poice again for one last try at doing it the right way.

that might be your best bet. We have the same problem in nc.
I have had good luck putting white chak on the frame then wiping it off that will help to read the number.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by silversink

Update-----I got a body tag from the suppliers and had the number engraved on it, riveted it to the firewall, Went to the DMV and played stupid and let the professional locate the numbers. He searched for a min. and located the tag on the firewall next to the stock tag , he proudly said I Located it , wrote the numbers down and it was done.

Thanks for all your help ---I hope this helps someone else( I forgot to say I painted over the tag so it looked like the rest of the firewall).

I love it when its all legal and certified by the government expert.
Good for you!

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by eagle

When the state cannot be reasonable, its time to take matters into your own hands. Get a set of stamps from Harbor Freight and restamp it.

Where I come from, that might be considered fraud. Please proceed carefully.

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by bobpo1

When I was in the Homicide Squad, the Auto Squad was next door and they used a chemical (don't know the name), that lifts the stamped numbers after they've been ground off. It picks up on the compressed metal below the surface. They can do the same thing with ground-off serial numbers on firearms. I've seen it done and it is impressive. Check with a PD that has an Auto Squad.

I think either hydrochloric or sulphuric acid will reveal the numbers.

[ian Simpson]

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Originally Posted by bobpo1

When I was in the Homicide Squad, the Auto Squad was next door and they used a chemical (don't know the name), that lifts the stamped numbers after they've been ground off. It picks up on the compressed metal below the surface. They can do the same thing with ground-off serial numbers on firearms. I've seen it done and it is impressive. Check with a PD that has an Auto Squad.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I'm restoring the original numbers. I'm not changing numbers to commit fraud.

How about a frame change? A person then has a frame that may have numbers registered to another car on the road. The same goes for an engine change. Many engine numbers are ground off and changed during an engine rebuild.

Tom, I do not know about your jurisdiction, but here there are definite protocols dealing with this type of situation. Some years ago, my son and I changed the body on his jeep CJ5. The vin was recorded on the dash of both bodies. The DOT had a protocol that dealt with the issue (details no longer remembered) that allowed him to sell the vehicle shortly thereafter.

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by silversink

Update-----I got a body tag from the suppliers and had the number engraved on it, riveted it to the firewall, Went to the DMV and played stupid and let the professional locate the numbers. He searched for a min. and located the tag on the firewall next to the stock tag , he proudly said I Located it , wrote the numbers down and it was done.

Thanks for all your help ---I hope this helps someone else( I forgot to say I painted over the tag so it looked like the rest of the firewall).

I think I will do this using the numbers from my current registration (Title). Great idea.

[lloyde]

You have a title to the car and an engine that matches the title. What you need is to have them inspect the old engine and change the number to the new engine. I have done this before in Montana. If you put in the old engine and then change it out you will be back to your title not matching the number on your car. Not good!