Ethanol 101

[BillCNC]

Originally Posted by Big hammer

Never buy gasoline if there’s a tanker dumping fresh gasoline, it will stir up the water setting in the station’s tanks

Along with the sediment on the bottom as well.

Originally Posted by GPierce

Modern cars don’t suffer from this problem because the fuel tank is sealed.

Even though they call them sealed system's, they are not. The tank cannot run on a negative pressure and needs to vent due to expansion and contraction of the fuel in the tank. Instead of directly venting to open air, it goes through a charcoal canister to remove fuel vapors and it's brought back into the throttle body to burn. Moisture can and does still get in the tank. Maybe not as easily as open venting, but it still get's in there.

Regards
Bill

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

I’ve had non ethanol delivered to the house for years. Use it in small engines, outboards and old cars. Also put it in my wife’s 2020 Pacifica. The Pacifica had to be towed to the dealer a couple of months ago with symptoms of a bad fuel pump. Pump and filter replaced under warranty. Work order said failure was caused by non-ethanol gas! Seems that late model fuel systems are designed specially for ethanol.

There is no way a dealer would have known it was real gas unless you told them. Sounds like a b.s. excuse the dealer came up with so as to blame anything but junk parts. They're all crooks.

[Banditorama]

Seth is right, the "techs" that worked on your car made the part about E0 causing fuel pump failure up. Either that or whatever training program they took was funded by the big corn lobby.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

There is no way a dealer would have known it was real gas unless you told them. Sounds like a b.s. excuse the dealer came up with so as to blame anything but junk parts. They're all crooks.

I believe it, 100%.

Go talk to a real and active automotive engineer that works for Ford or GM and deals with engine systems, fuel, emissions, timing and so on. You'd be amazed at what they test and account for. And yes, there are actual myths and urban legends, some of the things the government said would never work, actually do.

Run your A on E85, and ethanol free fuel back to back, and you'll notice a seat of the pants difference. Go talk to the tuner guys that run E85 in their cars and make tons more power than on straight gas. Go play with alcohol / ethanol toys (sand cars, drag cars), and there are components designed to run on these fuels. Carb jets, injectors, pumps and other things are different for cars that are designed to run "flex" fuels, over cars that run straight gas.

I'm sure the dealer received their intel on pump failures tied to people running ethanol free fuel.

The diesel guys are going through the same thing with current emissions relating to sulfur content, DEF and other things.

It's completely believable.

[Banditorama]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I believe it, 100%.

Go talk to a real and active automotive engineer that works for Ford or GM and deals with engine systems, fuel, emissions, timing and so on. You'd be amazed at what they test and account for. And yes, there are actual myths and urban legends, some of the things the government said would never work, actually do.

Run your A on E85, and ethanol free fuel back to back, and you'll notice a seat of the pants difference. Go talk to the tuner guys that run E85 in their cars and make tons more power than on straight gas. Go play with alcohol / ethanol toys (sand cars, drag cars), and there are components designed to run on these fuels. Carb jets, injectors, pumps and other things are different for cars that are designed to run "flex" fuels, over cars that run straight gas.

I'm sure the dealer received their intel on pump failures tied to people running ethanol free fuel.

The diesel guys are going through the same thing with current emissions relating to sulfur content, DEF and other things.

It's completely believable.

The Chrysler Pacifica isn't a flex fuel vehicle. These cars are designed to run on fuels from a wide range of countries. A lot of EU countries are 5% ethanol, Japan's standard is 3% ethanol, and there's plenty of countries where E0 is still the standard.

Ethanol free fuel won't cause issues with automotive fuel system components designed to run on ethanol fuel. But ethanol fuel will cause problems on older automotive fuel system components that weren't designed to run ethanol.

The diesel fuel issue is related to modern diesel fuel's lower lubricity rating. Which is a completely separate issue from ethanol in gasoline

[BillCNC]

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Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

There is no way a dealer would have known it was real gas unless you told them. Sounds like a b.s. excuse the dealer came up with so as to blame anything but junk parts. They're all crooks.

They could have sampled the fuel in the tank, add a little water and then shake it for a few seconds and 10 minutes later, there is your alcohol, or lack of.

Regards
Bill

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by Banditorama

The Chrysler Pacifica isn't a flex fuel vehicle. These cars are designed to run on fuels from a wide range of countries. A lot of EU countries are 5% ethanol, Japan's standard is 3% ethanol, and there's plenty of countries where E0 is still the standard.

Ethanol free fuel won't cause issues with automotive fuel system components designed to run on ethanol fuel. But ethanol fuel will cause problems on older automotive fuel system components that weren't designed to run ethanol.

The diesel fuel issue is related to modern diesel fuel's lower lubricity rating. Which is a completely separate issue from ethanol in gasoline

I thought it was implied that my comments were overly general regarding fuel issues in new vehicles, gas or diesel. Hence my use of "" around "flex" fuel; I wasn't calling the Pacifica a flex fuel vehicle. My high level comments were relative to gas and diesel fuels changing for emissions reasons (vapor, particulate, liquid), and how the change in the make up of fuels over the past couple of decades has drastically impacted the design of vehicles, to the point that using the old fuel formulations for a period of time will affect the performance and longevity of powertrain parts.

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by Dave in MN

Our local Club (Twin Cities Model A Ford Club) invited a fuel expert to one of our winter clinics to speak about fuel and oil for our cars. For winter storage of our cars and small engine equipment, he suggested filling the gas tank fully and then placing a plastic bag or similar plastic over the threaded filler pipe and screwing the cap over the plastic tightly. This process creates a sealed tank with very little air in the system. I have tried it and the fuel stays fresh over winter. Good Day!

PS: In our northern area…Please check your coolant to see if it is properly mixed with antifreeze or fully drain the system. You are on borrowed time already.

Nice tip. Too bad I can't use that on my cars with a vented talk.

[Gene F]

OK, so winter blend vs summer blend? Sorry, but I have always wondered.

[Banditorama]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I thought it was implied that my comments were overly general regarding fuel issues in new vehicles, gas or diesel. Hence my use of "" around "flex" fuel; I wasn't calling the Pacifica a flex fuel vehicle. My high level comments were relative to gas and diesel fuels changing for emissions reasons (vapor, particulate, liquid), and how the change in the make up of fuels over the past couple of decades has drastically impacted the design of vehicles, to the point that using the old fuel formulations for a period of time will affect the performance and longevity of powertrain parts.

Ethanol free gas is not an "old formulation"

It's modern gas, that adheres to modern gasoline standards but minus the corn alcohol. It has the same detergent additives as E10 gasoline does. Any fuel system components designed to run E10 will not be affected by running name brand ethanol free gasoline.

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by Banditorama

Ethanol free gas is not an "old formulation"

It's modern gas, that adheres to modern gasoline standards but minus the corn alcohol. It has the same detergent additives as E10 gasoline does. Any fuel system components designed to run E10 will not be affected by running name brand ethanol free gasoline.

See post #2

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

They could have sampled the fuel in the tank, add a little water and then shake it for a few seconds and 10 minutes later, there is your alcohol, or lack of.

Regards
Bill

Yep, 10oz of e-10 + 1oz of water = 9oz of gas? + 2oz of shmeg.

[Banditorama]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

See post #2

I have ran E0 in every gasoline powered vehicle and engine I have ever owned. Like I said in my previous comment, the only difference between E0 and E10 is that E10 has 10% anhydrous ethanol blended into it. Otherwise, they are the same base gasoline, detergent, and additive mixture. Never once had an issue. I've found that all my cars run smoother, get consistently better MPG, and a small but noticeable increase in power.

You said in your previous post you have it delivered to your house. The only thing that could have caused your issues is either the tank you're storing it in is filled with debris or you've got very old gas sitting in the tank you store it in. That, or more likely IMO, the "tech" that "diagnosed" your car just made that up because he heard you put E0 in it and didn't feel like coming up with a proper answer as to why your fuel pump/filter kicked the bucket.

All the components of a fuel system designed to handle ethanol fuel are more robust than the components of older model cars not designed to handle ethanol. A fuel system designed to run ethanol will not be affected whatsoever by running pure gas. They are designed to handle the corrosive nature of ethanol.