Miller / Cragar Date Code? Help

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by forever4

Bell Auto Parts! That got my attention!
I've got the NOS Victor head gaskets for that head.

Hey Vince,
Nice !
I've got the nos HEAD for that gasket set !

You are amazing , in coming up with this stuff constantly.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

I have a miller head with the NICR marking. It has a miller carburetor and intake manifold. The rocker box has Miller Hi Speed head Los Angeles This head designed for Anti Knock Fuel and High Compression Plugs. The updraft intake is aluminum and the Miller Carburetor has a 4 or 5 jet system and a rotating venturi. Does anyone else have such a carb, or information on adjusting it? I also picked up a plain rocker box cover on EBay some years ago.

Not to step on Stokers thread, as I think that he has his answer, i.e.- not a miller/scholfield/cragar. My best guess is Denver OHV Head..

Does your Miller have any other markings on top of head ..outside ..of rocker box ?
Yeah, if you compare your rocker box to my pictures box, you can see where the name Miller should have/would have been prior to parting of ways.
Can you show us any pictures of your setup ?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Stoker32

There were no NI CR casted in that location.

Hey Stoker,
Nonetheless, very NICE setup ! Hope that it runs well for you.. Do you have inserts or original babbitted rods/mains. Stock oil setup or full flow/filtered.

[Stoker32]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Stoker,
Nonetheless, very NICE setup ! Hope that it runs well for you.. Do you have inserts or original babbitted rods/mains. Stock oil setup or full flow/filtered.

It's got inserts in it. The story on the engine is it was last re-built in 1954 in Pomona by a guy named Ralph McVay. The engine was never fired after that.

Here's a pic of how we got it.

[midgetracer]

Hardtimes,
I will try to post pictures. It does have some other markings...a part number? ending in -E. Miller is before the High Speed on your box.

[midgetracer]

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One more picture.

[denis4x4]

I bought an original CRAGAR from Steve at Bert's in Denver. He has a lot of info. Mine is 1935

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Stoker32

It's got inserts in it. The story on the engine is it was last re-built in 1954 in Pomona by a guy named Ralph McVay. The engine was never fired after that.

Here's a pic of how we got it.

Hey Stoker,
You have done a very nice job with this equipment, evidenced by before/after pics ! Do you have a Cragar intake to go with the engine or is that a Zepher 2x2 ?
Interesting that you've got an engine 're-built' many decades ago and not run. Have you taken it down for inspection or just let her rip !
Lately , I've seen some real high asking prices on several such (not run) engines said to be re built in the past. Guess I'm just a chicken when it comes to the expenses , in todays money, to do a good job....just to take a guys word. Tear it down for inspection, I say..ha !

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

Hardtimes,
I will try to post pictures. It does have some other markings...a part number? ending in -E. Miller is before the High Speed on your box.

Hey midgetracer,
Great pics, thanks for sharing !
Looks like you've got it near running, eh ?
I notice that you've got BOLTS , is that what you use to fasten head down ? I've talked to several guys who have used bolts also. Something to do with how close these heads , when assembled, come too close to firewall for stud use ?
Yes, your rocker box with Miller name juxtaposed to my same rocker box without miller name, are examples of what I was saying about time table of events of ownership shifts.
It's an interesting subject (rocker box development with these heads/ownership). A story by itself. I've seen where guys have actually carved off name(s) off of these covers. Probably as many reasons for doing so, back in the day, as there were guys. Also heard that miller name was ground off prior to sale, to use up existing stock...evidenced by faint tool marking where miller was on box. As these developed, at one time, BOTH miller and schofield names appeared same rocker box.
There must be a dozen or more varieties. Don't know what Denver head used, plain or what ? The neatest one that I've seen, is the huge MILLER word/name on a first slope head...rare. The best looking, IMO, is the Cragar /Hollywood version. They ALL fit each head, just interesting history of speed.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by midgetracer

One more picture.

'some other markings'...
Is there an (large) A on corner, outside of rocker box ?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Ray Young

Maybe from your angle down there.

All I can see is the sump!!

[Stoker32]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Stoker,
You have done a very nice job with this equipment, evidenced by before/after pics ! Do you have a Cragar intake to go with the engine or is that a Zepher 2x2 ?
Interesting that you've got an engine 're-built' many decades ago and not run. Have you taken it down for inspection or just let her rip !
Lately , I've seen some real high asking prices on several such (not run) engines said to be re built in the past. Guess I'm just a chicken when it comes to the expenses , in todays money, to do a good job....just to take a guys word. Tear it down for inspection, I say..ha !

It's got the zepher intake. We did tear it down and go over it. Had a couple minor things we had to fix, but it's all taken care of now.

[C26Pinelake]

By the way, did you try HAMB ? Wayne

[Jim Brierley]

Your head does have the original type rocker arms and wing nuts to hold the cover on. Both are from early Buick, 6-cyl. engines, 1928 or so. Denver Millers had Denver, CO cast on their covers. Don't think there were 'many other copies' of heads although every body and his brother did make covers. Also, most Cook (Cyclone) OHV heads had Cragar covers because Ledington could buy them from Bell Auto Parts cheaper than he could make them. Interesting discussion!

[mngreen]

In addition to the casting marks in your picture below, my original Cragar has an large embossed 'A' to the left of the section with the 50079-E outside of the rocker cover. It also has a Cragar rocker cover with vintage Buick rocker arms.

This 'B' engine was one of Wes Cooper's and has been in our '31 cabriolet for over 40 years. I am also interested if there is any way to date the head.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by mngreen

In addition to the casting marks in your picture below, my original Cragar has an large embossed 'A' to the left of the section with the 50079-E outside of the rocker cover. It also has a Cragar rocker cover with vintage Buick rocker arms.

This 'B' engine was one of Wes Cooper's and has been in our '31 cabriolet for over 40 years. I am also interested if there is any way to date the head.

Hey mngreen,
Thanks for sharing your engine pic !
That LARGE ...A...is the indicator that yours is a 1930(or so) CRAGAR !
As said, Craney must have either wanted to or had to (legally) add the A to his casting, to show differentiation from Scholfield original 'square shoulder' head...both heads duplicates, except for the Cragar A.
I say '1930 or so'....because contrary to rumors...I was NOT there !
But, if you study the history of EACH of these businessmen , especially head making longevity of involvement of Miller, Scholfield and Craney Gartz, it was astounding ,IMO, how short a time these three were directly associated with making this cast iron head.
It appears that MONEY , foundry and legal problems plagued these guys involvement.

It's interesting to me, to note the rocker arm strategy /use also. As Jim B says, they (probably the 'brain' Goosen) figured out that the head could be built using already available rocker arm assemblies from the Buick. Some say that they scavenged junked Buicks for rocker assemblies. Frugal, I say, as one Buick assembly would make 11/2 heads !
BTW...don't know about Denver head, but All others mentioned here used the same casting # as on your head, i.e.- 50079-E

Could you tell me , if you are using studs or bolts to fasten your head ?
And, did you purchase engine from Wes Cooper...good story.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Your head does have the original type rocker arms and wing nuts to hold the cover on. Both are from early Buick, 6-cyl. engines, 1928 or so. Denver Millers had Denver, CO cast on their covers. Don't think there were 'many other copies' of heads although every body and his brother did make covers. Also, most Cook (Cyclone) OHV heads had Cragar covers because Ledington could buy them from Bell Auto Parts cheaper than he could make them. Interesting discussion!

Hey Jim,
Wonder if anyone has and can show a Denver, Co cover ?
I understand that this head maker had terrible results with getting any good Foundry castings and that not many made it to use even with welding up defects, etc.
I hear that HE died as a pauper and that no one even knew of his death. And , that by sheer happenstance, a guy who owns/operated Model A parts business, came upon yard sale and 'rescued' head stuff (tooling/parts ?).
Sad story , indeed, if true.

[hardtimes]

Hey Stoker,
You do nice work !
I have couple single alum Cragar downdraft intakes. They both have/need one ear repair. Just saying, if you are looking. These Cragar parts are still out there and appear from time/time...and are worn, eh .

[mngreen]

It has bolts attaching the Cragar head.

The 'B' engine was acquired as-is from Wes Cooper at his rod shop in Burbank/Glendale area by the second owner in the early 1970's (we are the third). I am told it was one of his old racing engines that he retired. It also has pressure oiling to the mains, inserts, counter-balanced crank, possibly an iskendarian cam (?), lightened flywheel, V-8 clutch, Stromberg 97 carb, Burns intake and ceramic headers. Everything else (other than the engine) is completely stock Model A.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by mngreen

It has bolts attaching the Cragar head.

The 'B' engine was acquired as-is from Wes Cooper at his rod shop in Burbank/Glendale area by the second owner in the early 1970's (we are the third). I am told it was one of his old racing engines that he retired. It also has pressure oiling to the mains, inserts, counter-balanced crank, possibly an iskendarian cam (?), lightened flywheel, V-8 clutch, Stromberg 97 carb, Burns intake and ceramic headers. Everything else (other than the engine) is completely stock Model A.

Sounds like WE owe guys like Cooper/Brierley/Winfield, et. al,. a debt of gratitude for their pioneering and passing on banger improvements for our touring engines, as well as race engine, eh !
I just fired off and runin a B that is a combo of all those guys contributions. It runs like a cat does from a greyhound

Be careful that it doesn't twist something stock... off ! Do you know bore/stroke #s ?