oil pan rear seal

[Don S]

Just changed the gaskets and seals on my pan. The rear seal leaks in the middle just enough to be annoying. Has any one out there put a thin spacer under the seal to make it thicker,I have the right ones from Snyders.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Don,

Not really, but I always set this seal with both block & seal coated with non-hardening "Permatex No,2" which I was told years ago by vintage mechanics that "Permatex No. 2" has always been successfully used since Model T days.

Remember gravity, in that the oil may be exiting from up higher & dripping to the bottom of this seal.

Other causes of leaks in this area, (only to list a few), have been reported & can be further researched under both Forum "Searches":

a. The too long rear seal was not trimmed flush; hence, not allowing oil pan gasket to compress.

b. Oil pan gasket compressed too much.

c. Rear oil pan return pipe not installed.

d. Rear main loose enough to allow oil to exit.

e. Oil pan gasket interference with rear main shims.

Usually the thin edge of the pan compresses the seal at least 1/8" deep approximately in the center of the seal.

While it is leaking, try removing all excess oil first. Immediately afterwards, many times in carefully searching this area with a flashing light in the dark, one can sometimes see & detect the source of this oil leak.

If you remove the pan again, just carefully investigate this entire area.

Others may report & share other past oil leak experiences.

[Don S]

Thanks,I watched with engine running but it was very hard to see where the oil originated from, except that it ran down the back of the pan at the middle, will try again before pan removal.

[Joe K]

The cork seal wants to be landed "on top of" the either side pan flange seal gaskets. In fact, I believe the either side gaskets have a 'square' that engages the square slot in the rear main bearing cap - the same slot that the square cork is placed.

You want to butter this area up pretty well with Perm No. 2 once you trim that cork length so that it doesn't "hump" over the rear main cap.

Starting at the square, butter up and over the cork retaining slot - then place the cork. THEN place the oil pan without any Perm No. 2 on what becomes effectively a "knife edge" seal where the oil pan meets and compresses the square cork. (If you use Permatex on the knife edge area, it may act as grease to allow the cork to "squirm" out of the groove and end up either in your oil pan or dangling in the air as a cork strap in the groove between oil pan and flywheel housing.)

Well, this my thought. Others may describe their thoughts better - or have better thoughts.

I confess my preferred way to do this is with the engine removed and upended in an engine stand. I have done it laying on my back underneath though. Not fun.

Joe K

[Don S]

I was out on a garage tour today,of course trying to pick the brains of car owners like myself,one suggested blowing white powder on the seal area. Maybe the white will show where the oil is leaking from. No matter, the pan will have to come off to replace the seals.I must be more careful,old age and glasses,and lying on ones back don't help. I will post how things turn out.

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Don,

Not really, but I always set this seal with both block & seal coated with non-hardening "Permatex No,2" which I was told years ago by vintage mechanics that "Permatex No. 2" has always been successfully used since Model T days.

Remember gravity, in that the oil may be exiting from up higher & dripping to the bottom of this seal.

Other causes of leaks in this area, (only to list a few), have been reported & can be further researched under both Forum "Searches":

a. The too long rear seal was not trimmed flush; hence, not allowing oil pan gasket to compress.

b. Oil pan gasket compressed too much.

c. Rear oil pan return pipe not installed.

d. Rear main loose enough to allow oil to exit.

e. Oil pan gasket interference with rear main shims.

Usually the thin edge of the pan compresses the seal at least 1/8" deep approximately in the center of the seal.

While it is leaking, try removing all excess oil first. Immediately afterwards, many times in carefully searching this area with a flashing light in the dark, one can sometimes see & detect the source of this oil leak.

If you remove the pan again, just carefully investigate this entire area.

Others may report & share other past oil leak experiences.

Is Permatex 2 better than permatex ultra black?
I am new to this and someone told me ultra black, should I switch to permatex 2?
I have my oil pan out and want to be sure when I put it back in.
Thanks

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Frank,

Permatex No. 1 will harden with time -- I never use it.

Permatex No. 2 is non-hardening & will remain soft -- I use it often for automotive gaskets.

Permatex Ultra Black is a newer silicone sealer used to make gaskets & is a different material from Permatex No.2. -- like the many silicone sealers that came out in the very early 1970's under Federal Specification No. FS TT-S-00230C, it probably works very well, but I never use it for automotive work because I have lots of tubes of the old standby Permatex No. 2.

[FrankWest]

My real cork gasket seems in good shape. Because this is a difficult gasket to shape should I just reuse the old gasket?

[1931 flamingo]

Remember how hard it was to drop the pan Frank. I think I would use a new gasket.....

paul in CT

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Remember how hard it was to drop the pan Frank. I think I would use a new gasket.....

paul in CT

what Paul said
and even if it was easy to pull the pan i wouldn't reuse it

[Y-Blockhead]

Good Morning, Don. Altho I have never used this UV Light on my Model A (yet) I have used it on other cars with great success. You put a fluorescent Dye in your oil to detect where the oil is leaking from.

http://www.amazon.com/Uview-413010-B...xgy_auto_img_y

http://www.amazon.com/Tracer-Product...pr_product_top

[hardtimes]

Y-Blockhead,
Thanks for your input, learn something good every day. Hm, wonder if any here have tried this detection method ? Can the dye cause trouble with oil ?

Hey Frank,
Reuse of old used gasket may be acceptable, it a guy would have NO other recourse, IMO. But, as you have various options, just think of doing the SAME work again/again, because you used a cheap used gasket again...yikes !

[Mitch//pa]

the dye does not effect the oil properties. it works in rears, trannys, engines and a/c systems.
a while back someone put it in the trans to see if the fluid was leaking into the torque tube and diff
at the shop we mainly use it in a/c systems, it works great for even the slowest seeps

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Y-Blockhead,
Thanks for your input, learn something good every day. Hm, wonder if any here have tried this detection method ? Can the dye cause trouble with oil

I have used it, just not in my A. I used it in my Y-Block, noted for rear main seal leaks. Turned out it was the plug in the rear of the cam. I could have pulled the engine, replaced the rear main seal and re-installed the engine only to still have a "rear main seal leak".

Saved me a ton of work and time.

Does not hurt oil, ATF, power steering, freon, etc.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

The UV dye works in the cooling system, also.
Bill W.

[dlfrisch]

DonS and
y-blockhead
Neat idea with the UV trace. I put my pan off and on a couple of times to stop the rear leak (I think- rear leak). I guess I got the problem solved. It still left a small amount, but like everyone states " all "A's" leave a territory spot" .

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Y-Blockhead,
Thanks for your input, learn something good every day. Hm, wonder if any here have tried this detection method ? Can the dye cause trouble with oil ?

Hey Frank,
Reuse of old used gasket may be acceptable, it a guy would have NO other recourse, IMO. But, as you have various options, just think of doing the SAME work again/again, because you used a cheap used gasket again...yikes !

I have the new gasket that came in the set, I was only worried about forming it around the edge of the rear portion of the pan.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Remember how hard it was to drop the pan Frank. I think I would use a new gasket.....

paul in CT

Your right, I got an instant education in things that I thought would take much longer to learn with the help you you guys, and
The pan was not that dirty, only and inch of almost non oily grit in the bottom, maybe that could have hurt the engine if I let it circulate through the engine. it was almost like black sediment sand, not oily at all.
I will add the new gasket and buy some permatex 2, rather than use the ultra.

[Don S]

I cleaned up the rear seal area nice and dry,started the engine,and with good light ,could see the oil seeping from where the cork seal and pan rails butt together, on the drivers side only. The pan will come off and a new cork seal installed,with more attention to a little extra sealant in those tough to seal corners.

[RHD]

I never trim the long cork seal. Seat it at both ends and fit the pan watching the gasket does not slip from either side of the seal while compressing with the pan. (Easier said than done). It will compress and when fitted properly they very seldom leak. I have used this method for 49 years with good results.This suggestion was told to me by a Model 'A' mechanic of the day. He died some 35 years ago and he told me the cork seals were made that length for a purpose. He said that Ford never gave anything away. Use a good (expensive) gasket cement. Never use RTV.
Re tighten pan bolts after a short time.