Just when I thought I understood A timing...

[Art Newland]

I was about to button-up my engine project when I thought I'd take a look at how the timing pin mark in the cover and the timing alignment marks on the crank and cam gear equate to the position of the piston/valves. While the timing marks are aligned, the #1 piston is at TDC and the exhaust valve is wide open. Is this correct?

[Art Newland]

With the timing pin engaged in the cam gear through the cover, the valves are closed and the piston is headed down the bore, considerably ATDC. I thought while the pin is engaged #1 is supposed to be at TDC?

[Art Newland]

I though maybe I have a weird-o timing cover, but looks like pretty standard fare?

[Art Newland]

In the red book, the pictures of the gears show the position of the crank gear key-way in a different place than my engine, which is correct?

[Art Newland]

Any other engine I've worked on, while the timing marks were aligned, #1 piston was at TDC. Obviously that can't be the case on the A motor if TDC is supposed to happen with the cam timing pin moved way over to where the timing pin is located.

[1955cj5]

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Your's is very different from mine......

Seems to me I've read here that there were some crank gears that were improperly marked....

Others will respond!

[frank55a]

I can not tell clearly from your pictures, however remember the crank makes 2 revolutions to 1 of the timing gear. Your crank might be 1 revolution off. What is the position of the number 4 piston and the valves for cylinder #4? 1 and 4 should be at TDC with the indent in the timing gear lined up for the pin however the exhaust valve for #4 should be open and all valves for #1 closed.

I think if you took the timing gear off, rotated the crank 1 full turn so your marks line up again I think you will be fine.

[Art Newland]

somethings goofy... might just be me. 8^)

[1955cj5]

Look at post #3....and then continue reading!

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ght=crank+gear

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

Look at post #3....and then continue reading!

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ght=crank+gear

I think you nailed it CJ5, my timing mark on the crank gear is 4-5 teeth left of the one in the picture.

[Art Newland]

Looks like the correct position for the mark is just right of the key-way...

[Synchro909]

If you turn the motor till the valves are rocking on No 4, No 1 will be at TDC and ready to time it. It's easy to see when that happens since you have the head off. I bet the dimple in the timing gear lines up with the pin when you do that. That is, unless the crank is one turn off, in which case the dimple will be directly opposite the pin.

[PC/SR]

The location of the timing indent in your pics is not where it will be when the timing pin is used for timing. Place the cover on loosely with a bolt or two, rotate the engine so the pin falls in place, then remove the cover and see if the valves are closed then and if the piston is at TDC. They will be, but do not take our word of it. Check it yourself.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by frank55a

I can not tell clearly from your pictures, however remember the crank makes 2 revolutions to 1 of the timing gear. Your crank might be 1 revolution off. What is the position of the number 4 piston and the valves for cylinder #4? 1 and 4 should be at TDC with the indent in the timing gear lined up for the pin however the exhaust valve for #4 should be open and all valves for #1 closed.

I think if you took the timing gear off, rotated the crank 1 full turn so your marks line up again I think you will be fine.

TDC is TDC, if I rotated the crank one turn, it would be right back in the same spot.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

The location of the timing indent in your pics is not where it will be when the timing pin is used for timing. Place the cover on loosely with a bolt or two, rotate the engine so the pin falls in place, then remove the cover and see if the valves are open then and if the piston is at TDC. It will be, but do not take our word of it. Check it yourself.

But you have to initially "time" the gears by aligning the crank and cam gears, they both can't be TDC...

[Art Newland]

I think the crank gear is just marked in the incorrect spot, weird but just my luck...

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by forever4

The gear ratio is 3:1, not 1:1

There is only one possible correct gear mesh, but two possible cam positions per cam/valve positions.

the gear ratio is 2:1, there is only one way to align the timing marks.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Henry liked to be different, so he timed the cam to the crank without caring where the ignition timing was at that time.

So they are two completely different operations, and NOT done at the same time.

[1955cj5]

Well, try it with the cam gear mark aligned to the crank gear on that tooth just to the right of the key way. Then fit the timing cover, insert the timing pin in the dimple and see where the #1 piston is and which way the distributor rotor points....

Then write a note for the next guy that rebuilds that engine!

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

If you turn the motor till the valves are rocking on No 1, the piston will be at TDC and ready to time it. It's easy to see when that happens since you have the head off. I bet the dimple in the timing gear lines up with the pin when you do that. That is, unless the crank is one turn off, in which case the dimple will be directly opposite the pin.

Originally Posted by PC/SR

The location of the timing indent in your pics is not where it will be when the timing pin is used for timing. Place the cover on loosely with a bolt or two, rotate the engine so the pin falls in place, then remove the cover and see if the valves are closed then and if the piston is at TDC. They will be, but do not take our word of it. Check it yourself.

See post #2

[Art Newland]

Here's a picture of a crank gear from Brattons, look at my picture. the timing mark on my gear is four teeth to the left of the key, on Brattons it's just to the right of the key

[PC/SR]

'TDC is TDC, if I rotated the crank one turn, it would be right back in the same spot.'

The piston will be "back in the same spot" but the valves will not be in the same spot. See Vince above. Thanks Vince. Rotate it and view it visually and you will get it. The marks are fine, don't worry about them being in the wrong place.

[Mitch//pa]

Art your picture sucks. Remove the slinger and take a better one

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

I think the crank gear is just marked in the incorrect spot, weird but just my luck...

I think so too. On the following 3 pictures, check the position of the mark on the crank gear relative to the key.

Here's Art's...



Here's the red book...



Here's a pic Tom posted on another thread...




The red book and Tom show the crank gear timing mark about 1 tooth to the RIGHT of the key. Art's is about 3 teeth to the LEFT of the key.

[Art Newland]

I actually checked this before I pulled the crank out, who-ever put the engine together before me aligned it the same way... which would only be natural I guess. The mark is very small, I'll make a bigger and better one where it's really supposed to go.

[Synchro909]

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Originally Posted by forever4

What does that mean, the valves are rocking?

The valves are closed at #1 TDC timing position, not open or "rocking"

Valves are said to be rocking when the piston is at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke and you move the crank shaft back and forward a little. Forward and the inlet starts to open, back and the exhaust starts to open. It takes very little movement of the crank shaft to get them rocking. As I said, this is at the top of the exhaust stroke, which is exactly one revolution from compression stroke. While No 4 is at the top of the exhaust, number one is at the top of the compression stroke which is where you want it to be for timing. That is, with the Model A firing order of 1,2,4,3, get the valves rocking on No 4 and you're good to time it - No 1 is at TDC on the compression stroke.
Sounds to me like you have confused yourself with the two dimples in the timing gear. Barring you being super unlucky and having a gear that has been marked incorrectly, you can't go wrong. The crank gear AND the camshaft gear can only go on one way. It's only the relationship between the two that we have to get right.

[PC/SR]

Good catch by Vince and Dick re the crank mark being off. I missed it. Where did it come from?
As my guru says, assume nothing is right. Check and measure everything.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Henry liked to be different, so he timed the cam to the crank without caring where the ignition timing was at that time.

So they are two completely different operations, and NOT done at the same time.

With the Model A ignition timing as flexible as it is (you can move it where ever you want) I guess it really doesn't matter what method Ford used to time the cam.

[Synchro909]

I agree with those saying the mark on the crank gear is off by 4 teeth. Art, your kind of luck is very familiar to me.
I also agree with marking the correct tooth on the crank gear (go 4 teeth clockwise) and meshing them again. I think you'll find things are right then.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

Good catch by Vince and Dick re the crank mark being off. I missed it. Where did it come from?
As my guru says, assume nothing is right. Check and measure everything.

Actually 1955CJ5 caught it way back in post #9

assume nothing is right

this is exactly why I was checking it in the first place.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Actually he needs to move over 3 teeth.

[Mitch//pa]

I still cant see the pic good on my ipad. Blaaah

[Art Newland]

Thanks for everyone's input, I know what I need to do now.
Mitch... get a bigger screen. 8^) The mark looks like a punch mark and is hard to see in the picture.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by forever4

Unfortunately your comments above have nothing to do with a Model A Ford engine and are all wrong/misleading in this context and in this thread.

Now you are injecting discussion of valve position on number 4 cylinder to inject more confusion into this very simple arrangement. Why?

An investment in the Ford Service Bulletins would be a worthwhile expenditure.

Number 1 piston TDC for timing purposes is top of the compression stroke, not exhaust. It automatically happens when the correct timing cover is used and the proper cam and crank gear are properly meshed.

It has nothing to do with #4 cylinder or rocking valves.

Both valves are closed at #1 TDC, not open or "rocking". The distributor is spark timed at #1 TDC, not some other condition.

It is all fully explained on my web page link posted elsewhere on this thread.

You clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I stand by it.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Actually he needs to move over 3 teeth.

Agreed!

[Mitch//pa]

Well the boys got it figured out pretty quickly:::: its a good thing you decided to double check things or this could have been our december saga

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Well the boys got it figured out pretty quickly:::: its a good thing you decided to double check things or this could have been our december saga

Yeh, He did the right thing checking everything as he went. ASSUME NOTHING!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Well the boys got it figured out pretty quickly:::: its a good thing you decided to double check things or this could have been our december saga

Agree, that was a very fortunate check.
I've never seen a thread go to 3 pages so quickly.

I saw that tiny mark, but thought it was just a nick from handling or some such. I was also wondering if the gear might be on backwards and have a timing mark on the other side?
Use a dental mirror to check the back side teeth next to the keyway.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by frank55a

I can not tell clearly from your pictures, however remember the crank makes 2 revolutions to 1 of the timing gear. Your crank might be 1 revolution off. What is the position of the number 4 piston and the valves for cylinder #4? 1 and 4 should be at TDC with the indent in the timing gear lined up for the pin however the exhaust valve for #4 should be open and all valves for #1 closed.

I think if you took the timing gear off, rotated the crank 1 full turn so your marks line up again I think you will be fine.

Nope! One full turn of the crank will put you right back where you started. No change.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by forever4

Unfortunately your comments above have nothing to do with a Model A Ford engine and are all wrong/misleading in this context and in this thread.

Now you are injecting discussion of valve position on number 4 cylinder to inject more confusion into this very simple arrangement. Why?

An investment in the Ford Service Bulletins would be a worthwhile expenditure.

Number 1 piston TDC for timing purposes is top of the compression stroke, not exhaust. It automatically happens when the correct timing cover is used and the proper cam and crank gear are properly meshed.

It has nothing to do with #4 cylinder or rocking valves.

Both valves are closed at #1 TDC, not open or "rocking". The distributor is spark timed at #1 TDC, not some other condition.

It is all fully explained on my web page link posted elsewhere on this thread.

Might want to back up the bus a bit here. Synchro909 has it exactly right. His method has everything to do with a Model A! What he is describing is how to time the cam properly without using the marks. So no matter if the marks are missing or in the wrong spot. Just ignore them and follow the method he described. Remove either the cam or crank gear and set the cam as he described (it will actually 'snap' into position from valve spring pressure). Set #1 piston at TDC (there is no "compression" or "exhaust" stroke at this point). Now reinstall the gear you removed, fiddling as necessary to end up at TDC without moving the camshaft. Done!

[tbirdtbird]

bbbbut but but Mitch we NEED a December saga. Guess we'll have to wait for something else.

Maybe since we are now in snow season in some places, someone will want to know how to install positraction in their A rearend using cutdown clutch discs from a Model T....surely someone has tried it....

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

bbbbut but but Mitch we NEED a December saga. Guess we'll have to wait for something else.

Maybe since we are now in snow season in some places, someone will want to know how to install positraction in their A rearend using cutdown clutch discs from a Model T....surely someone has tried it....

That Synders head milling thing has a chance of the December saga.

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by george miller

that synders head milling thing has chance of the december saga.

lol. :d

[100IH]

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 100IH

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

That's how I've always done it. Using companion cylinders is a VERY old technique that seems to have been lost.
Another way to be sure both valves are shut when you want to adjust the valve clearances is to watch the rotor button and adjust the cylinder it is pointing to - assuming the timing is set somewhere near right

[Terry, NJ]

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It occurred to me that he may have a "B" engine with a different timing cover.
Terry

[Art Newland]

It has a 1930 Model A serial number. 8^)

[Art Newland]

Even Big glob of thread lock

[Art Newland]

Couldn't stop "the wrench"

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by 100IH

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

100IH, What part of SW Idaho are you in? I just moved to Kuna.

[Art Newland]

OK, I think I'm back on track.

[Art Newland]

I moved #1 to TDC ( both valves closed ) and ignition timing mark was lined up with the hole in the timing cover.

[jetrod]

Art, aligning the timing camshaft/crankshaft marks and timing the distributor are two different things. You have indexed the cam/camshaft correctly! Now rotate the engine until the timing pin drops into the SAME dimple.(thru the timing cover)[it is almost 160 degrees from the camshaft/crankshaft alignment position] that is TDC--the valves will be right--time the distributor cam and it will just purr like a kitten. Toodles

[Art Newland]

Yes jetrod, that's all good. It's getting tucked away for now until my head studs and nuts arrive. And now it's back to my regularly scheduled thread about this engine.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...0059&showall=1

[Quigley1930]

Y'alls eyes are probably better then my 80 year olds but I swear I see the crank gear dimple 3 teeth to the left of where Art has it now

Sewall

[Quigley1930]

Can't count to well that's four teeth

Sewall

[tbirdtbird]

that was the whole issue, the gear is marked wrong as indicated earlier

who knows how the motor ever ran at all

[Quigley1930]

My bad!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Quigley1930

Can't count to well that's four teeth

Sewall

Oh great............now we have a new mystery. Why is this last picture showing the timing mark 4 teeth off, while the pictures in #24 and #27 show the timing mark 3 teeth off?
Maybe you should remove the oil slinger and have a good look at the key.

Here's 2 of the 3 pictures in question.

[jfreddie]

The picture in Les Andrews book shows precisely how the marks are supposed to line up.

I would use that to verify your gears.

Thanks.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by forever4

I still don't see a mark on any of the teeth on the crank gear,
But I think it is meshed correct now.....right????

The more I look at that crank gear, the more I think it has the keyway also broached about 5 degrees out of position.

I also noticed that Les Andrews diagram is off-angle and does not match the genuine Ford illustration posted on my web page.

In the first picture in my last post you will see a tiny whitish spec on the crank gear that lines up with the cam gear dimple, which is 3 teeth off from the proper timing.

On the second picture that same mark on the crank gear is 4 teeth to the left.
Something mighty fishy going on here.

I'd pull the oil slinger and check the key.

[Frank Miller]

Let me throw in another perspective. The gear may be marked correctly but the key way was machined in the wrong spot. If that is the case you may still be a few degrees off by meshing with the correct tooth. Unless measured with a degree wheel you can't be sure. I'd just put a correctly marked gear on there and toss that one.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by forever4

I still don't see a mark on any of the teeth on the crank gear,
But I think it is meshed correct now.....right????

The more I look at that crank gear, the more I think it has the keyway also broached about 5 degrees out of position.

I also noticed that Les Andrews diagram is off-angle and does not match the genuine Ford illustration posted on my web page.

Some of the repo gears from the 70ts were off. That may be one of them.

[tbirdtbird]

see #58 i think he fixed it

[Art Newland]

You guys just can't let a good "saga" go, can you?
I have to admit that not taking the pulley and slinger off to make sure everything is OK down there is bothering me a bit. It's not in following my "check everything" mentality. So I will take it apart and take a look. I've added a red "O" around the only mark on the crank gear, it is hard to photograph but very easily seen in person. It looks like a single strike with a punch. I do think it is properly timed now because I ran the crank around to TDC on #1 (valves closed) and it aligned the ignition timing mark in the cover perfectly.

[100IH]

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Whatever you do Don't get #1 to tdc and then check for overlap on #4.
-40 deluxe check your private message.-

[Mitch//pa]

Post #26. REMOVE THE SLINGER

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yes, the slinger needs to come off, and I would also use a small dental type mirror to look at the backside of the gear while you spin the crankshaft around to see if any factory timing marks are present. That small nick sure doesn't look like anything more than someone's punch mark, or something dropped against the gear and left a mark. But, the mystery still remains about how 3 teeth off became 4 teeth off.

[Dick Steinkamp]

With the slinger off, what is it Art should look for?

[George Miller]

That is not a factory mark for sure. I think the gear is on backwards to.

[Dick Steinkamp]

I think the confusion on 3 or 4 teeth off is just the different camera angles.

I like the "mirror on the backside of the gear" idea. Could it be some previous owner turned the crank gear around during the latest "rebuild" to use the other side of the crank gear tooth faces against the cam gear? He carefully marked the back side of the same gear tooth that was factory marked to insure he used the same tooth to line up with the cam gear. However, due to the helical cut of the gear that would be the wrong thing to do.

[Art Newland]

Does it matter if it's on backwards? I suppose the key-way could be damaged, wrong size, etc. I hear the crank gear is very hard to remove, I don't want to take it off if I don't have to.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Does it matter if it's on backwards? I suppose the key-way could be damaged, wrong size, etc. I hear the crank gear is very hard to remove, I don't want to take it off if I don't have to.

It could throw the cam to crank timing off by a few degrees, depending on how the gear teeth line up with the keyway.

I do agree with not wanting to remove the gear, if you don't need to, as they can be extremely tight.

[Art Newland]

If it will make my car faster than Dick's I'd rather leave it on backwards...

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

If it will make my car faster than Dick's I'd rather leave it on backwards...

You'll need more than a backwards crank gear.

[Synchro909]

This thread won't die!!!
There is something else that has been bothering me about Art's pictures in post #1. In the first pic, the piston is at (or close to ) TDC, yet the exhaust valve is open. That shouldn't happen till the piston is near the bottom of its stroke, a whole half a turn from where is it in the pic and certainly a lot more than either 3 or 4 teeth. Am I missing something or is there more?
Not that this explains the open valve but if the marked tooth on the crank gear is out in relation to the key, who is to say that it is out by a whole number of teeth. The key could have been cut, say, 3 1/2 teeth out. That might explain the 3-4 teeth issue.
Another (but unlikely) issue that hasn't been mentioned is "Is the key slot cut in the right place in the crankshaft?"
As they say, the thlot pickens!

[DougT]

I think I would take the crank gear off and hang it on the wall as a reminder of what can bite you in the butt. Then, get one that at least has a chance of being right and marked right off the bat.

[Art Newland]

Has anyone ever seen a picture of what the valves and pistons are doing when the cam timing marks are aligned?

[J Franklin]

Why not tack the timing gear cover on lightly and drop the pin in as you would to time the ignition and see where the piston and valves are? And then crank till the marks align and give us a report.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I just checked a 1928 crankshaft that has a 2 piece aluminum pulley and slinger still bolted in place. I don't see any timing mark on either side of the gear, but maybe it's lower and covered by the slinger.

The keyway, and number 1 and 4 crank throws are all at TDC together.
Wish I could find my new crank gear to check that also.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

This thread won't die!!!
There is something else that has been bothering me about Art's pictures in post #1. In the first pic, the piston is at (or close to ) TDC, yet the exhaust valve is open. That shouldn't happen till the piston is near the bottom of its stroke, a whole half a turn from where is it in the pic and certainly a lot more than either 3 or 4 teeth. Am I missing something or is there more?
Not that this explains the open valve but if the marked tooth on the crank gear is out in relation to the key, who is to say that it is out by a whole number of teeth. The key could have been cut, say, 3 1/2 teeth out. That might explain the 3-4 teeth issue.
Another (but unlikely) issue that hasn't been mentioned is "Is the key slot cut in the right place in the crankshaft?"
As they say, the thlot pickens!

Actually the exhaust valve should close a few degrees after TDC, but with the cam gear being late by 4 teeth this is how the exhaust valve would be.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Why not tack the timing gear cover on lightly and drop the pin in as you would to time the ignition and see where the piston and valves are? And then crank till the marks align and give us a report.

See post #58.

[tbirdtbird]

When the marks on the gears are aligned #1 is not supposed to be TDC on compression.
That only happens when the pin thru the hole in the timing cover is in the detent on the gear. Agree with Art and Vince and Dick

[Tom Wesenberg]

OK, I found my new crank gear and took a picture of both sides. It actually does make a slight difference if the gear is installed backwards. If backwards the cam timing will be retarded by a couple degrees.
in the correct position the right side of the keyway will line up with the top left of the tooth. When it's flipped over, the right side of the keyway will line up with the right side of the groove on the left of the tooth.

Both sides of the gear have a slight recess from the teeth, and the back side is a few thousands more recessed.

I just went back to page 4 and looked again at the corrected timing to see how it compared to my left picture, and I agree with Vince that it looks correct, so button it up and run it.

[Art Newland]

Thanks for going to that effort Tom. My plan is to remove the pulley if it isn't too difficult to get off. I have the correct size socket for the nut but no longer have any 3/4 " drive breaker bars. I'll line one up and give it a try. If there is a mark way down under the slinger, that's a stupid place to put it. The gear is probably pretty hard material but I'll try to use a drill. It'd be nice to have the pulley off so I could clean it up.

[Mitch//pa]

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25 more days to go .....we can do

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Thanks for going to that effort Tom. My plan is to remove the pulley if it isn't too difficult to get off. I have the correct size socket for the nut but no longer have any 3/4 " drive breaker bars. I'll line one up and give it a try. If there is a mark way down under the slinger, that's a stupid place to put it. The gear is probably pretty hard material but I'll try to use a drill. It'd be nice to have the pulley off so I could clean it up.

Looks like you got it right, why not just mark it with out taking the pulley off. Or just forget the mark.

[Art Newland]

I knew we could make 100 posts if we tried. 8^)

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by forever4

You guys are talking exhaust stroke. The timing marks only can go one way, and the ignition timing is done at the end of #1 compression stroke. Both valves are to be closed at #1 TDC ignition timing.

Art has it all timed correctly now.

I was talking compression stroke but I think Tom was on exhaust stroke. Not apples with apples. I agree that Art seems to have it right now. It'll run fine.

[Art Newland]

I've got a 3/4" drive breaker bar now, I'll try to remove the pulley. If it's too tough to remove I'll just put it together, put it on the stand and see if it'll run! (how exciting!)
(( yes this is the real Art ))

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

I've got a 3/4" drive breaker bar now, I'll try to remove the pulley. If it's too tough to remove I'll just put it together, put it on the stand and see if it'll run! (how exciting!)
(( yes this is the real Art ))

Art,
You are welcome to use my air impact wrench (600 ft lbs of torque). It will spin it right off.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

I've got a 3/4" drive breaker bar now, I'll try to remove the pulley. If it's too tough to remove I'll just put it together, put it on the stand and see if it'll run! (how exciting!)
(( yes this is the real Art ))

Apologies for the confusion, Art.

[tbirdtbird]

easy does it, theoretically that nut shouldn't be on there that tight......

there are threads where guys have sheared the shaft.....that is a large 1 3/8 (IIRC) nut attached to a threaded shaft.....basically to give a very large bolt.

put the impact on low and let it vibrate some

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Apologies for the confusion, Art.

no worries mate! Just kidding'

[Art Newland]

I figure if I can get ratchet nut loose by arm power fine, if not, she goes back together as-is.

[George Miller]

Art
did you get the nut off.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Well, apparently all of Vince's replies have an expiration date, and they have all expired.
Once again they're all gone.

Now we have another mystery to solve.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Well, apparently all of Vince's replies have an expiration date, and they have all expired.
Once again they're all gone.

Now we have another mystery to solve.

No mystery:: He prob deleted all his valuable info for good reason

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Art
did you get the nut off.

Not yet, might be a few more days before I can get back to it.

[kevinwalshe]

I could have used this posting a couple weeks ago when I replaced mine. My gear was not marked correctly as the "dimple" was for the timing pin, not the gear alignment with the crank gear. Set it to TDC, and then insert the gear making sure your timing pin lines up with both valves closed and the distributor rotor pointed to cylinder number 1 on the cap.
Kevin

[Art Newland]

Hey Kevin, the way I understand it is the dimple in the cam gear is for both crank/cam gear alignment and ignition timing. Assemble with crank and cam gear timing marks, then turn engine to align the cam dimple with the pin to set ignition timing.

[tbirdtbird]

actually the one dimple on the timing gear is used for both functions.

look at the pix that have been posted

no fair Art you type faster

[jetrod]

Originally Posted by Art Newland

Hey Kevin, the way I understand it is the dimple in the cam gear is for both crank/cam gear alignment and ignition timing. Assemble with crank and cam gear timing marks, then turn engine to align the cam dimple with the pin to set ignition timing.

just like post #53,eh

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

OFTEN, my post will KILL a THREAD!----- I'll try AGAIN.
Bill W.

[Art Newland]

Removal of the pulley and slinger went A-OK. After cleaning of the gear a very faint "O" timing mark appeared on the crank gear!! Right where it's supposed to be. Light shinning from an oblique angle makes it stand out much more so than looking at it from straight on.

[Dick Steinkamp]

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Did you have to take the crank gear off or was the mark on the side showing?

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

Did you have to take the crank gear off or was the mark on the side showing?

It's all on the front where it should be, so it's mounted correctly.

Guess I'm going to have to get friends with better eyes...

[Art Newland]

shouldn't miss this one!

[Dick Steinkamp]

What a boring end to this saga. I was hoping for two more mysteries and 4 more pages.

[Synchro909]

That marked tooth and keyway look much better. I think your confidence should be pretty high that it's right now.

[Art Newland]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

That marked tooth and keyway look much better. I think your confidence should be pretty high that it's right now.

Yea, I was 99.9% sure it was correct, now I'm 100.9% sure.
Just goes to show, I should've taken that apart and cleaned, hopefully I would've seen the proper timing mark.

[PC/SR]

Wow. What a thread. It turned out all right, and lots of good info and analysis here.