The Ford Barn

tbirdtbird · 12-03-2016, 11:07 AM

bbbbut but but Mitch we NEED a December saga. Guess we'll have to wait for something else.

Maybe since we are now in snow season in some places, someone will want to know how to install positraction in their A rearend using cutdown clutch discs from a Model T....surely someone has tried it....

George Miller · 12-03-2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

bbbbut but but Mitch we NEED a December saga. Guess we'll have to wait for something else.

Maybe since we are now in snow season in some places, someone will want to know how to install positraction in their A rearend using cutdown clutch discs from a Model T....surely someone has tried it....

That Synders head milling thing has a chance of the December saga.

zzlegend · 12-03-2016, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by george miller

that synders head milling thing has chance of the december saga.

lol. :d

100IH · 12-03-2016, 01:10 PM

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

Synchro909 · 12-03-2016, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100IH

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

That's how I've always done it. Using companion cylinders is a VERY old technique that seems to have been lost.
Another way to be sure both valves are shut when you want to adjust the valve clearances is to watch the rotor button and adjust the cylinder it is pointing to - assuming the timing is set somewhere near right

Terry, NJ · 12-03-2016, 09:30 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

It occurred to me that he may have a "B" engine with a different timing cover.
Terry

Art Newland · 12-03-2016, 10:14 PM

It has a 1930 Model A serial number. 8^)

Art Newland · 12-03-2016, 10:19 PM

Even Big glob of thread lock

Art Newland · 12-03-2016, 10:22 PM

Couldn't stop "the wrench"

40 Deluxe · 12-04-2016, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100IH

I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

100IH, What part of SW Idaho are you in? I just moved to Kuna.

Art Newland · 12-04-2016, 04:14 PM

OK, I think I'm back on track.

Art Newland · 12-04-2016, 04:18 PM

I moved #1 to TDC ( both valves closed ) and ignition timing mark was lined up with the hole in the timing cover.

jetrod · 12-04-2016, 06:42 PM

Art, aligning the timing camshaft/crankshaft marks and timing the distributor are two different things. You have indexed the cam/camshaft correctly! Now rotate the engine until the timing pin drops into the SAME dimple.(thru the timing cover)[it is almost 160 degrees from the camshaft/crankshaft alignment position] that is TDC--the valves will be right--time the distributor cam and it will just purr like a kitten. Toodles

Art Newland · 12-04-2016, 06:49 PM

Yes jetrod, that's all good. It's getting tucked away for now until my head studs and nuts arrive. And now it's back to my regularly scheduled thread about this engine.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...0059&showall=1

Quigley1930 · 12-04-2016, 11:26 PM

Y'alls eyes are probably better then my 80 year olds but I swear I see the crank gear dimple 3 teeth to the left of where Art has it now

Sewall

Quigley1930 · 12-04-2016, 11:28 PM

Can't count to well that's four teeth

Sewall

tbirdtbird · 12-04-2016, 11:45 PM

that was the whole issue, the gear is marked wrong as indicated earlier

who knows how the motor ever ran at all

Quigley1930 · 12-04-2016, 11:50 PM

My bad!

Tom Wesenberg · 12-05-2016, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quigley1930

Can't count to well that's four teeth

Sewall

Oh great............now we have a new mystery. Why is this last picture showing the timing mark 4 teeth off, while the pictures in #24 and #27 show the timing mark 3 teeth off?

Maybe you should remove the oil slinger and have a good look at the key.

Here's 2 of the 3 pictures in question.

jfreddie · 12-05-2016, 01:21 AM

The picture in Les Andrews book shows precisely how the marks are supposed to line up.

I would use that to verify your gears.

Thanks.

12-03-2016, 11:07 AM	#41
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... bbbbut but but Mitch we NEED a December saga. Guess we'll have to wait for something else. Maybe since we are now in snow season in some places, someone will want to know how to install positraction in their A rearend using cutdown clutch discs from a Model T....surely someone has tried it.... __________________ '31 180A

12-03-2016, 01:10 PM	#44
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... I think most all of the points made are good and valid. Here is what I learned 50 years ago while working as an apprentice auto machinist. Use the timing marks to set the relationship between the cam and crank Then, bring the #1 cyl. to tdc. The valves will be closed if it is in the firing position. On the A, the dimple for the firing pin will have to be in the correct quadrant for the pin in the timing cover. The cam lobes are both pointing down. The companion cyl. #4 will be up at the same time, they must be exactly in overlap, the lobes are split in the up position with both valves equally in the partial open position. You can tell if cam timing is 1 tooth out if the crank is exactly at tdc. if overlap is spot on. The companion cyl. trick works for 4,6 and 8 cyl. engines.This is just a way to verify that the marks were correct. If the valves are closed on #1 at tdc. the timing could be way out, look to the companion cyl. for the verification you need. A variant of this is also a way to set valve lash. #4 in overlap - adjust #1. Works without fail for me for 50 years. Also reinforces understanding of the 4 stroke cycle, not a bad thing.

12-03-2016, 09:30 PM	#46
Terry, NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Bucks Co, Pa Posts: 3,740	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) It occurred to me that he may have a "B" engine with a different timing cover. Terry

12-03-2016, 10:14 PM	#47
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... It has a 1930 Model A serial number. 8^)

12-04-2016, 04:18 PM	#52
Art Newland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Lynden, WA Posts: 1,564	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... I moved #1 to TDC ( both valves closed ) and ignition timing mark was lined up with the hole in the timing cover.

12-04-2016, 06:42 PM	#53
jetrod Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central NC Posts: 68	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Art, aligning the timing camshaft/crankshaft marks and timing the distributor are two different things. You have indexed the cam/camshaft correctly! Now rotate the engine until the timing pin drops into the SAME dimple.(thru the timing cover)[it is almost 160 degrees from the camshaft/crankshaft alignment position] that is TDC--the valves will be right--time the distributor cam and it will just purr like a kitten. Toodles

12-04-2016, 11:26 PM	#55
Quigley1930 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Middleburg, Virginia Posts: 421	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Y'alls eyes are probably better then my 80 year olds but I swear I see the crank gear dimple 3 teeth to the left of where Art has it now Sewall

12-04-2016, 11:28 PM	#56
Quigley1930 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Middleburg, Virginia Posts: 421	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... Can't count to well that's four teeth Sewall

12-04-2016, 11:45 PM	#57
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... that was the whole issue, the gear is marked wrong as indicated earlier who knows how the motor ever ran at all __________________ '31 180A

12-04-2016, 11:50 PM	#58
Quigley1930 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Middleburg, Virginia Posts: 421	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... My bad!

12-05-2016, 01:21 AM	#60
jfreddie Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: anchorage, alaska Posts: 117	Re: Just when I thought I understood A timing... The picture in Les Andrews book shows precisely how the marks are supposed to line up. I would use that to verify your gears. Thanks.