Camshaft timing gear rattling noise

[Larry Jenkins]

Did you lube the face of the round part with the "X" on it real well before you inserted it into then hole in the cover?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Zener,

A Dan McEachern timing gear and crank gear are usually made to perfection.

Maybe worth checking:

a. Reply No. 20 suggestion .... dial indicator on outer circumference of timing gear and outer side of timing gear can check if cam was made on a Monday, after a weekend barnyard dance with hooch & loose women.

b. Reply no. 19 appears like it could contribute noise.

c. Long shot, but does the crankshaft have fore and aft play?

Just never give up ...... always some human error with man made mechanical items ..... for example ............ non-human made buzzards usually never malfunction because they were not made by humans in a mechanic's shop.

[Zener424]

Replies in order:

No. 18 - I have a matched set of Dan McEachern gears that I invested in and I really don't want to go to a fiber if I don't have to. It's been said his gears are usually excellent and more than likely not the problem. However I will if I have to. Question, can I leave Dan's crank gear in and just change the timing gear? I don't think so, but not sure. Then I have to pull the engine to change the crank gear.

No. 19 - The entire oil pump, spring, drive gear assembly was rebuilt when the engine was rebuilt. I haven't dropped the pan to check it. I understand the theory about the cam walking forward at idle because of something tight or mismatched at the drive gear end that's causing it to walk. I do recall it was a tight fit, no excessive wink. Again this is something I can pursue if I have to.

No. 20 - This sounds very interesting to me. I have s Bill Stipe camshaft. It's also supposed to be a superior product. I made the investment to avoid any problems with a bad grind on an old shaft. I will have to check this with a dial indicator. After all I am pushing on the edge of the gear with a plastic anchor ( and not too hard ) to quiet the noise. Do I have a wobble? Maybe SAJ has a wobble and changing the center thrust on the camshaft doesn't resolve it the way pushing on the edge of the gear does? Perhaps I'll find out when I try my adjustable thrust button.

No. 21 - I always lube the thrust plunger, on the face, and in the cover where the spring sits.

No. 22 - There is no detectable crankshaft end play.

Thanks for everyone's interest and support. This is one of the things that makes Ford Barn great. I will say however, this hobby is not for the faint of heart.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Zener,

Your tenacity is admired.

Your hearing "rattling" with "no" pressure on the front outer face of the timing gear vs, "no rattling" with slight pressure appears to imply a noise that is, (as you stated above), generated by rotational "wobbling" ...... but where?

Sometimes in the middle of a crisis, it helps to relax, smile, laugh a little to release stress and concentrate on perhaps what Laurel & Hardy would have done to correct this problem ......... like, take off for a vacation with your wife riding on the front fender, reaching over to push on the timing gear with a plastic anchor ...... ?????

It may help to assume that "everything" is incorrect and perhaps causing this problem.

Usually in the end of complex matters, the problem was rooted in that which we never checked because we assumed it was perfect.

Hope this helps.

[tbirdtbird]

...

[PC/SR]

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You can leave Dan's crank gear on and change the cam gears. Do check the fit, they will/may change.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Zener, if you want to install a bolt, a hardened 3/4" will work. As I recall, I ground the boss down some, and tapped the spring/plunger hole. Cross the bolt end for oil, like the original plunger.you can cut the head off the bolt and make a slot, so it looks a little better than a head sticking out. Then of course you can hold the slot with a screwdriver while tightening the jam nut.

[Zener424]

In reply to No. 23 - I purchase the gears directly from Dan.

I decided I am not willing at this point to pursue the remaining variables in this equation.

I installed the adjustable thrust button. I used the largest diameter bolt that would fit through the plunger spring. It is a 7mm 1.0 pitch 50mm long hardened bolt with the head cut off and the end has been slotted for a flat blade screwdriver. I have it backed out about 1/4 turn and there is no noise. I played with it while the engine is idling. If I back it out any further, the noise returns. So although I have not solved the problem, I have (at least for now), stopped the noise.

Here's some photos. Caution: for some, it may hurt your eyes.
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[Zener424]

In reply to forever4:
"So now it is fixed by pushing on the cam instead of the gear????
What happened to the story about the gear wobble on the cam?"

There was never a "story" about there definitely being a "gear wobble" on the cam.

If you go back and read my original post I state:
"I'm wondering however if this could be something else because my thoughts are that I'm not pressing on the center of the gear, but the side of the gear possibly changing the dynamics, cocking the gear, or maybe absorbing some other camshaft/lifter related noise."

Later on Jim in S.C. stated:
"I once had that same problem with a aluminum gear. I put a dial indicator on the outer edge of the gear and found a wobble in the gear. I found out that the gear mounting surface was out of square with the cam. I had it turned square put it back together and the noise went away. What has always puzzled me is that after paying the price for a touring cam. The cam grinder didn't check every dimension before sending me the cam shaft."

Using a dial indicator, I had checked the runout, there was no significant runout found on at the timing gear. It was then that I decided to install the adjustable thrust button.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Zener,

Glad to hear it worked.

After reading:

"Heard from Dan McEachern, he said he has seen this 4-5 times in thirty years with no solid explanation for it. He suggests like Lawrie that I might try an adjustable or solid cam button."

I had a different Model A mysterious timing gear noise and what Dan suggested "worked" ...... I called him to let him know it worked ....... 30 years of actual hands on timing gear experience means a lot.

Sounds to me like it may be possible that you may wear out and change out three (3) sets of Model A seat covers before you have another timing gear noise.

Thanks for follow-up ....... time to celebrate.

[SAJ]

Well done Zener424. Your thrust bolt is neater than mine. I left the bolt head on. I used 5/16 UNF inside the plunger without the spring.
1mm is .040, so for .004 clearance on a 1.0 mm thread pitch you need to back out 1/10 turn from just tight, engine hot.
1/4 turn would give 0.010 end play, which is a lot. Spec is .003 to .005 from memory.
With a bolt head and spanner it is very easy to flex the casing, especially when hot as you seek the start point to back out from. Your screwdriver slot is less likely to overtighten the "no clearance" setting in my opinion.
Great result, but I wonder what the cause was. I surmise there was tightness somewhere in the cam/ distributor/oil pump drive train- just enough to to walk the cam forward against the plunger spring. Did you check the distributor fixing bolt in the head? Too tight could crush the shaft bush just enough to load up the distributor drive, without any other symptoms except "cam walk" I imagine.
Or maybe there is something in the lobe- grind-that-gives-lifter-rotation theory I saw suggested recently elsewhere.
SAJ in NZ

-

[H. L. Chauvin]

Very interesting solution.

In a similar Model A timing gear noise situation, (which appears to have occurred in the past), if every cam lobe and cam journal checked to be perfect; timing gear and crank gear mesh checks perfect; oil pump/distributor drive gear and worm gear is perfect; plunger and spring length & tension perfect; and everything else checks to be perfect .............. except is it slightly possible that something so simple as the overall length of the cam was never checked after manufacturing same ....... where with a shorter cam the spring is maybe allowed to extend further and not provide enough pressure to prevent "cam walk" thrust?

Mysterious Voodoo and Hoodoo usually have some sort of explanation after researching same.

[bunnyc]

Originally Posted by katy

Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale.

That is a neat, useful tip. Thanks.

[Benson]

Let's see what I remember about 1403 chain-drive idler gears ...

A wink of

.001" to 0.003" exists between the motor drive gear and the chain-drive idler gear at the point of tightest engagement.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Benson

Let's see what I remember about 1403 chain-drive idler gears ...

A wink of

.001" to .003" exists between the motor drive gear and the chain-drive idler gear at the point of tightest engagement.

[Zener424]

I felt I should mention, that in researching this topic on Ford Barn, I discovered that there are now at least four threads started by folks that experienced a similar noise problem. In all of the cases, a Bill Stipe camshaft had been installed. I'm not making a direct correlation, nor am I criticizing the Stipe company, or the product (that would be blasphemy!). I am suggesting this may deserve more research to determine if there might be a a previously unknown and unexpected common denominator. 

[SAJ]

Zener. That's interesting. My noisy roadster has a "touring regrind " as described by Ora Landis to me (Schwalms, the builder of my roadster engine). I am not sure if it is a Bill Stipe regrind.I bought this engine from Snyders.
My wife's Tudor engine that I rebuilt myself has a new IB 330 cam from Bill Stipe. The timing gears are silent.
SAJ in NZ

[katy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
Tip: You can check spring strength using your drill press and a bathroom scale.
That is a neat, useful tip. Thanks.

You're welcome, I was hoping somebody would come up w/the correct length for measuring the spring pressure.

[john charlton]

Just replaced my very noisy camshft gear . The metal centre had become loose on the fibre outer gear (old style). I have a new MACS plunger and spring but the new spring is way more stiff than the original .Am i right and thinking that the 35 lbs tension is with the cover installed and that is the tension on the camshaft end ???. Or is 35 lbs when the spring is fully compressed ??? . Some of my original springs only one end is "finished" the other end a spur sticks out . I assume this is to prevent the plunger from rotating . So the spring should only go in one way .,smooth side up . Has anyone had a problem with a rotating plunger ???

John in sunny England

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi John,

In your reply #40, "Has anyone had a problem with a rotating plunger ??? "

Camshaft rotating adjacent to & in contact with plunger ...... erratic noise?

How very observant & most interesting?

Who knows what ever goes on under the covers, Model A "timing" covers that is.

Why "always" no erratic noise after installing a non-rotating bolt?