The Ford Barn

RockHillWill · 11-27-2016, 01:57 PM

I just completed the drawings for this Model A fender buck, and am posting while it is all fresh in my mind. This is not the only way, just one way. I like making drawings, so this is the approach that I have taken, and from my limited experience, I like the fact that I can use it as a hammer form buck if I need to. In some previous bucks, I was too liberal in making the buck ribs be vertical, leaving too much sanding to fit the actual contours. That also made it harder to hold up under some of the 'angled' hammer blows. I learned the West System glue usage from Jim Hery and the 3D scanning was done by Scott White at the last Redneck Roundup.

This the .IGES file that was sent to me by Scott White after he 'worked over' the point cloud from the 3D scan taken in the shop.
MA1.jpg

I saved that file as a parts file in SolidWorks.
MA2.jpg

One of the earliest steps was to establish a base and back bone that could be cut out of the available 60" x 60" Baltic birch plywood. Then a 'plane' surface was determined at the highest point of the contour and using the cut surface of the 3D scan the back bone was drawn to match that contour, and the cross web locations were cut in place.
MA3.jpg

By establishing a working plane at one side of the web slots, and using the edge of the fender as determined by the cutting plane, a cross web contour was established then extruded to the thickness of the plywood. By using the 'convert entities / intersection curve' command the dark line along the contour is established at the exact location of the fender skin.
MA4.jpg

This is the combination support and contour web from the above cross section.
MA5.jpg

Pre-assembly holes were added to the SolidWorks drawing of the base to locate the support webs and the component assembly was started.
MA6.jpg

One of the last cross ribs about to be inserted on to the back bone.
MA7.jpg

Pre- assembly of the drawing components almost completed.
MA8.jpg

Components in place. The notches at the side are for the edge ribbing. Where the edging looks to be protruding shows where the edging will be bent to the fender contour at the assembly gluing process.
MA9.jpg

Individual drawings are then made and further saved as a .dxf file for use at the water jet place. Minimal dimensions are required only to allow the water jet operator to check the scale before cutting.
MA10.jpg

For these larger projects, I assemble the components into a 60" x 60" plywood panel for cutting at the same time.
MA11.jpg

This is the drawing, in .dxf format that will be sent to the water jet guy for cutting. In both the above and below photos there are components that are for a Bugatti headlight buck project, as I could take advantage of combining projects.
MA12.jpg

Here is a picture of the completed buck without the fender in place.
MA13.jpg

This picture shows the fender superimposed on the buck. The parts that show above the fender scan are the areas that will need to be 'custom' sanded before being able to use the buck. The red outer edging component is made longer than the fender to account for the material needed to include the wire edging prior to forming the fender edge bead typical of the Model A's.
MA14.jpg

DaWizard · 11-27-2016, 02:36 PM

Oh Will, very nicely done. Since all my drawing/drafting background was done with paper and pencil I am envious of those working in CAD now. Seems I was born way to early to take advantage of the new software.

What scale will this be 3D printed in?
Will you make a 3D printing and assemble the finished car?
How many body styles will you make?
Are they going to be for sale?
Will you make it for the 28/29?
Can I put in an order for a '28 Tudor?

Damn, I am so jealous because I have found that to learn new things my brain needs to lose old knowledge and I can't afford to do that.

Braincell challenged J.C.

Kevin in NJ · 11-27-2016, 03:12 PM

So you are creating one for each of the 2 styles of fenders?

You do know there are 2 shapes to the 31 style fender.

One has the crease stop as it flattens out and the back section is sort of flat. The other the crease goes further down and is more rounded.

I point this out cause I brought it up a few years ago and some of the big names in the A judging standards. They even had a car that had one of each type and it is a car that is known to be 100% original.

todd3131 · 11-27-2016, 04:57 PM

Was your plan to use a CNC table to make the buck? I have one and could make it for you the only issue for you is all of the cuts will be at 90 degrees.

RockHillWill · 11-27-2016, 06:57 PM

This buck was made purely to practice my panel fabrications in aluminum and to practice gas welding aluminum for an upcoming Bugatti project. The Bugatti bucks that I have built are in Tennessee, and this will give me a project in my shop to sharpen my skills. I had originally intended to help only on the frame and mechanicals portions of the Bugatti, but a recent acquisition of a particular wheeling machine has heightened my interest in aiding in the panel fabrication as I have learned a few new ideas and have gained a new respect for the capabilities of the English wheel.

The fender that was used for the scanning was one being used on a fine joint project, so it is a full scale fender. Aside from the extended bead design, I personally feel that the differences in the fender 'crease' is not from a design change but is due to die/stamping wear throughout production, but is of no concern on this project.

DaWizard · 11-27-2016, 07:02 PM

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So you are saying you will NOT toss this into a 3D printer and make a model car of it?

Seems a shame to put all that time into it to not make at least one small one from it. *sighs*

Kevin in NJ · 11-27-2016, 09:34 PM

It is not just a crease change, it has to be a different design.

The curve from the bead to the crease is carried much further down towards the running board. The crown is much higher then the other type of fender.

That can not be a worn out die, but a different design. It really stands out when you have the 2 fenders next to each other. There is no way there would be a loss on the order of like a 1/4" on a crown (I have never measured it, but it is considerable from the die stamping stand point and wear).

BILL WILLIAMSON · 11-28-2016, 07:57 AM

I BARELY have the skills to change a FUEL VALVE handle???
Bill Dense

RockHillWill · 11-28-2016, 08:10 AM

Thanks, Kevin. I have not been exposed to that information before, but as I mentioned, this effort was done to provide a practice 'project' before starting on the Bugatti body build, rather than to duplicate a perfect Model A fender.

If the fender build goes successfully, I have a set of right and left side Kirksite bucks that I acquired from a real old timer from Sterling Heights that worked at Ford. They are for forming the lip in the fender prior to installing a fender well. I will try that next.

P.S. What type of information was presented to authenticate the fact that it was 100% original ? It could have 'original' 1935 fenders and still be 'original'. That has always been a curiosity for me, how someone who was born 30 years after the car was assembled can authenticate the condition as 'original'. I'm not trying to be confrontational, just making an observation. Might be the same dies, but not the same operator?

RockHillWill · 12-05-2016, 10:26 AM

I just brought home the components for the fender build. Am waiting a day or two for the wood to dry out.

pads 014.jpg

pads 015.jpg

pads 016.jpg

Rex_A_Lott · 12-06-2016, 04:52 AM

What material are you going to use for the fender? How many pieces? We are waiting for the pictures...

RockHillWill · 12-06-2016, 08:39 AM

Hey, Barry. I will be using the 3003 aluminum that we used at Peters class and on the Bugatti build. You are welcome to help...

Rex_A_Lott · 12-06-2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

Hey, Barry. I will be using the 3003 aluminum that we used at Peters class and on the Bugatti build. You are welcome to help...

If you don't have it finished by the first of the year, I'd like to get up there. My plate is pretty full for December. Good luck and happy hammering!

RockHillWill · 12-09-2016, 07:50 AM

Barry, I imagine we will still be working on this fender at the upcoming Redneck Roundup. The Roundup looks like it is shaping up to be an 'aluminum' event. Many bucks for the Bugatti project, aluminum welding, etc. All in addition to several sheet metal 'projects'. I have a Fordor door to skin, a fender to add in a well, etc. There will be at least four wheeling machines, the two large ones you saw at the Peter Tommasini class and at least two of Peters cast iron machines. I have been getting lots of feedback about how fast these machines are. You used them at the class.

RockHillWill · 12-12-2016, 11:07 AM

Some progress to report. Have gotten started on assembly of the pieces. The base had the holes installed at the water jet place to screw the four support ribs in place on the base. I outlined the positions on the top side with a pencil, pre-assembled those four ribs, and glued them to the top side. Then, the next day, I turned the buck on it's side and installed the wood screws, then glued the other ribs in place. Installation of the side pieces is next. The 'articles' in place on the buck are to position two ribs that did not hold there shape very close because of weight distribution issues.

FunSat 015.jpg

FunSat 016.jpg

FunSat 017.jpg

FunSat 018.jpg

FunSat 019.jpg

FunSat 020.jpg

FunSat 023.jpg

RockHillWill · 12-12-2016, 07:22 PM

Here are a few more from today, Installed two nose pieces and fit, formed and glued the outer side contour rail.

ModelAMonday 002.jpg

ModelAMonday 004.jpg

ModelAMonday 006.jpg

ModelAMonday 007.jpg

ModelAMonday 008.jpg

ModelAMonday 009.jpg

ModelAMonday 010.jpg

Rex_A_Lott · 12-13-2016, 07:06 AM

Looking good.

I noticed you let the speedster back into the shop...
I dont know if you would need a buck, or just a paper pattern, but start thinking about what it would take to make a gas tank. I'm thinking the neck would be the hardest part.

RockHillWill · 12-15-2016, 07:57 PM

Just about finished with the buck itself. The tapered edges of the upright rib supports have to be sanded, but all the pieces are in place and the glue has dried. I still have to located the long character line down the center, but I have located the position, I just have to grind the ribs to the correct depth and contour. Just took a few minutes to practice using the wheeling machine and a borrowed machine to 'get my hands dirty, making a couple of test panels.

DougG 020.jpg

DougG 021.jpg

DougG 022.jpg

DougG 025.jpg

DougG 026.jpg

DougG 035.jpg

DougG 048.jpg

RockHillWill · 12-18-2016, 08:29 AM

Had a chance yesterday to put a VERY NICE original fender on the buck, and it fit as good as expected. I still have to trim the sharp corners on three of the vertical ribs to get the fender down about another 1/8", but overall I am happy with the fit.

WCPaul 002.jpg

WCPaul 003.jpg

WCPaul 008.jpg

WCPaul 009.jpg

WCPaul 010.jpg

Tony Hillyard · 12-18-2016, 09:45 AM

That is really very impressive. Please keep us up-dated with the progress.

11-27-2016, 01:57 PM	#1
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Wooden egg crate buck for aluminum front fender for a '30-'31 Model A I just completed the drawings for this Model A fender buck, and am posting while it is all fresh in my mind. This is not the only way, just one way. I like making drawings, so this is the approach that I have taken, and from my limited experience, I like the fact that I can use it as a hammer form buck if I need to. In some previous bucks, I was too liberal in making the buck ribs be vertical, leaving too much sanding to fit the actual contours. That also made it harder to hold up under some of the 'angled' hammer blows. I learned the West System glue usage from Jim Hery and the 3D scanning was done by Scott White at the last Redneck Roundup. This the .IGES file that was sent to me by Scott White after he 'worked over' the point cloud from the 3D scan taken in the shop. MA1.jpg I saved that file as a parts file in SolidWorks. MA2.jpg One of the earliest steps was to establish a base and back bone that could be cut out of the available 60" x 60" Baltic birch plywood. Then a 'plane' surface was determined at the highest point of the contour and using the cut surface of the 3D scan the back bone was drawn to match that contour, and the cross web locations were cut in place. MA3.jpg By establishing a working plane at one side of the web slots, and using the edge of the fender as determined by the cutting plane, a cross web contour was established then extruded to the thickness of the plywood. By using the 'convert entities / intersection curve' command the dark line along the contour is established at the exact location of the fender skin. MA4.jpg This is the combination support and contour web from the above cross section. MA5.jpg Pre-assembly holes were added to the SolidWorks drawing of the base to locate the support webs and the component assembly was started. MA6.jpg One of the last cross ribs about to be inserted on to the back bone. MA7.jpg Pre- assembly of the drawing components almost completed. MA8.jpg Components in place. The notches at the side are for the edge ribbing. Where the edging looks to be protruding shows where the edging will be bent to the fender contour at the assembly gluing process. MA9.jpg Individual drawings are then made and further saved as a .dxf file for use at the water jet place. Minimal dimensions are required only to allow the water jet operator to check the scale before cutting. MA10.jpg For these larger projects, I assemble the components into a 60" x 60" plywood panel for cutting at the same time. MA11.jpg This is the drawing, in .dxf format that will be sent to the water jet guy for cutting. In both the above and below photos there are components that are for a Bugatti headlight buck project, as I could take advantage of combining projects. MA12.jpg Here is a picture of the completed buck without the fender in place. MA13.jpg This picture shows the fender superimposed on the buck. The parts that show above the fender scan are the areas that will need to be 'custom' sanded before being able to use the buck. The red outer edging component is made longer than the fender to account for the material needed to include the wire edging prior to forming the fender edge bead typical of the Model A's. MA14.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!" Last edited by RockHillWill; 12-16-2016 at 02:41 PM.

11-27-2016, 02:36 PM	#2
DaWizard BANNED Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Dizzyland Ca Posts: 332	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Oh Will, very nicely done. Since all my drawing/drafting background was done with paper and pencil I am envious of those working in CAD now. Seems I was born way to early to take advantage of the new software. What scale will this be 3D printed in? Will you make a 3D printing and assemble the finished car? How many body styles will you make? Are they going to be for sale? Will you make it for the 28/29? Can I put in an order for a '28 Tudor? Damn, I am so jealous because I have found that to learn new things my brain needs to lose old knowledge and I can't afford to do that. Braincell challenged J.C. __________________ New owner of '28 Tudor Previously owned; '30 Sport Coupe '28 left brake ccPickup '31 SW Town Sedan '28 AA Stake Bed '30 Cabriolet '42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan "If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!" Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices. Never pass up a bathroom Never neglect an erection Never trust a fart

11-27-2016, 03:12 PM	#3
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A So you are creating one for each of the 2 styles of fenders? You do know there are 2 shapes to the 31 style fender. One has the crease stop as it flattens out and the back section is sort of flat. The other the crease goes further down and is more rounded. I point this out cause I brought it up a few years ago and some of the big names in the A judging standards. They even had a car that had one of each type and it is a car that is known to be 100% original.

11-27-2016, 04:57 PM	#4
todd3131 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: cedar rapids iowa Posts: 527	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Was your plan to use a CNC table to make the buck? I have one and could make it for you the only issue for you is all of the cuts will be at 90 degrees.

11-27-2016, 06:57 PM	#5
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A This buck was made purely to practice my panel fabrications in aluminum and to practice gas welding aluminum for an upcoming Bugatti project. The Bugatti bucks that I have built are in Tennessee, and this will give me a project in my shop to sharpen my skills. I had originally intended to help only on the frame and mechanicals portions of the Bugatti, but a recent acquisition of a particular wheeling machine has heightened my interest in aiding in the panel fabrication as I have learned a few new ideas and have gained a new respect for the capabilities of the English wheel. The fender that was used for the scanning was one being used on a fine joint project, so it is a full scale fender. Aside from the extended bead design, I personally feel that the differences in the fender 'crease' is not from a design change but is due to die/stamping wear throughout production, but is of no concern on this project. __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!" Last edited by RockHillWill; 11-27-2016 at 07:03 PM.

11-27-2016, 07:02 PM	#6
DaWizard BANNED Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Dizzyland Ca Posts: 332	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) So you are saying you will NOT toss this into a 3D printer and make a model car of it? Seems a shame to put all that time into it to not make at least one small one from it. sighs __________________ New owner of '28 Tudor Previously owned; '30 Sport Coupe '28 left brake ccPickup '31 SW Town Sedan '28 AA Stake Bed '30 Cabriolet '42 Super Deluxe 4door Sedan "If it don't fit, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks...... ya needed a new one anyway!!" Doing a good job here is like wetting your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices. Never pass up a bathroom Never neglect an erection Never trust a fart

11-27-2016, 09:34 PM	#7
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A It is not just a crease change, it has to be a different design. The curve from the bead to the crease is carried much further down towards the running board. The crown is much higher then the other type of fender. That can not be a worn out die, but a different design. It really stands out when you have the 2 fenders next to each other. There is no way there would be a loss on the order of like a 1/4" on a crown (I have never measured it, but it is considerable from the die stamping stand point and wear).

11-28-2016, 07:57 AM	#8
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A I BARELY have the skills to change a FUEL VALVE handle??? Bill Dense __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

11-28-2016, 08:10 AM	#9
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Thanks, Kevin. I have not been exposed to that information before, but as I mentioned, this effort was done to provide a practice 'project' before starting on the Bugatti body build, rather than to duplicate a perfect Model A fender. If the fender build goes successfully, I have a set of right and left side Kirksite bucks that I acquired from a real old timer from Sterling Heights that worked at Ford. They are for forming the lip in the fender prior to installing a fender well. I will try that next. P.S. What type of information was presented to authenticate the fact that it was 100% original ? It could have 'original' 1935 fenders and still be 'original'. That has always been a curiosity for me, how someone who was born 30 years after the car was assembled can authenticate the condition as 'original'. I'm not trying to be confrontational, just making an observation. Might be the same dies, but not the same operator? __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!" Last edited by RockHillWill; 11-28-2016 at 08:27 AM.

12-05-2016, 10:26 AM	#10
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A I just brought home the components for the fender build. Am waiting a day or two for the wood to dry out. pads 014.jpg pads 015.jpg pads 016.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-06-2016, 04:52 AM	#11
Rex_A_Lott Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Upstate South Carolina Posts: 794	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A What material are you going to use for the fender? How many pieces? We are waiting for the pictures...

12-06-2016, 08:39 AM	#12
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Hey, Barry. I will be using the 3003 aluminum that we used at Peters class and on the Bugatti build. You are welcome to help... __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-09-2016, 07:50 AM	#14
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Barry, I imagine we will still be working on this fender at the upcoming Redneck Roundup. The Roundup looks like it is shaping up to be an 'aluminum' event. Many bucks for the Bugatti project, aluminum welding, etc. All in addition to several sheet metal 'projects'. I have a Fordor door to skin, a fender to add in a well, etc. There will be at least four wheeling machines, the two large ones you saw at the Peter Tommasini class and at least two of Peters cast iron machines. I have been getting lots of feedback about how fast these machines are. You used them at the class. __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-12-2016, 11:07 AM	#15
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Some progress to report. Have gotten started on assembly of the pieces. The base had the holes installed at the water jet place to screw the four support ribs in place on the base. I outlined the positions on the top side with a pencil, pre-assembled those four ribs, and glued them to the top side. Then, the next day, I turned the buck on it's side and installed the wood screws, then glued the other ribs in place. Installation of the side pieces is next. The 'articles' in place on the buck are to position two ribs that did not hold there shape very close because of weight distribution issues. FunSat 015.jpg FunSat 016.jpg FunSat 017.jpg FunSat 018.jpg FunSat 019.jpg FunSat 020.jpg FunSat 023.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-12-2016, 07:22 PM	#16
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Here are a few more from today, Installed two nose pieces and fit, formed and glued the outer side contour rail. ModelAMonday 002.jpg ModelAMonday 004.jpg ModelAMonday 006.jpg ModelAMonday 007.jpg ModelAMonday 008.jpg ModelAMonday 009.jpg ModelAMonday 010.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-13-2016, 07:06 AM	#17
Rex_A_Lott Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Upstate South Carolina Posts: 794	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Looking good. I noticed you let the speedster back into the shop... I dont know if you would need a buck, or just a paper pattern, but start thinking about what it would take to make a gas tank. I'm thinking the neck would be the hardest part.

12-15-2016, 07:57 PM	#18
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Just about finished with the buck itself. The tapered edges of the upright rib supports have to be sanded, but all the pieces are in place and the glue has dried. I still have to located the long character line down the center, but I have located the position, I just have to grind the ribs to the correct depth and contour. Just took a few minutes to practice using the wheeling machine and a borrowed machine to 'get my hands dirty, making a couple of test panels. DougG 020.jpg DougG 021.jpg DougG 022.jpg DougG 025.jpg DougG 026.jpg DougG 035.jpg DougG 048.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-18-2016, 08:29 AM	#19
RockHillWill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Rock Hill, S.C. Posts: 985	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A Had a chance yesterday to put a VERY NICE original fender on the buck, and it fit as good as expected. I still have to trim the sharp corners on three of the vertical ribs to get the fender down about another 1/8", but overall I am happy with the fit. WCPaul 002.jpg WCPaul 003.jpg WCPaul 008.jpg WCPaul 009.jpg WCPaul 010.jpg __________________ Uncle Bud says "too soon old, too late smart!"

12-18-2016, 09:45 AM	#20
Tony Hillyard Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pleines Oeuvres, Normandy, France Posts: 194	Re: Wooden egg crate front fender buck for a '30-'31 Model A That is really very impressive. Please keep us up-dated with the progress.