Greasing the Throwout Bearing

[tumblindice]

My '30 has been making a slight chattering noise from the clutch area since I got it in September. Just the usual bearing chatter sounds. A few weeks ago, I pulled off the inspection cover, and gave the throwout bearing grease fitting one pump, then two... ending up with about six pumps from the grease gun. No grease to be found coming out of anywhere.



This seemed like an oddly large amount of grease to me, so I then put the grease gun down, headed over to the shop computer, and discovered on here that at most 1-2 pumps should be necessary with modern bearings.



I figured if there were any problems they would show themselves when I drove the car, so I took it out for a spin. The chatter was completely gone and there was no noise at all from the clutch for maybe 10-15 minutes or so. And, no issues with the clutch slipping or anything like that.


After that time, the noise reappeared.


I am not sure if this is using an OE bearing or a new sealed style, and I'm not sure how to tell just through the inspection cover.



The car drives great, I just would like to fix this chatter issue, and it would be great if I don't have to install a new throwout bearing at this point in time to do so. I guess my question is, how inadvisable is it to keep carefully pumping this fitting with grease, is it possible that the bearing really could be that dry? Has anyone else experienced something similar?

[Joe K]

Do you have the proper amount of "free play" before the clutch disengages?

I think the recommendation is about 1" of pedal push before you detect any discernible amount of clutch slippage. If it is less than this, you might be into that "slip area" which actually will shorten the life of your clutch.

And could explain the chatter.

Joe K

[tumblindice]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Do you have the proper amount of "free play" before the clutch disengages?

I think the recommendation is about 1" of pedal push before you detect any discernible amount of clutch slippage. If it is less than this, you might be into that "slip area" which actually will shorten the life of your clutch.

And could explain the chatter.

Joe K

Yes sir, I think I am actually closer to 2" of pedal movement before clutch disengagement. I will double-check this the next time I am able to, though.

[Joe K]

The other area of "questionality" is the quality of the bearings. Most anything bearing made after about 1980 I would consider "questionable" - and more than likely made in that large Pacific Rim country which must not be named.

Not to say that bad quality is endemic from that source - but they are as opportunistic as Lucifer - and likely not near as honest.

Timken is probably the only bearing company worth a dern - but I'm not sure they're into this particular application of bearing. Even Torrington (needles) are now into the Pacific Rim - a trip to Torrington CT late last week revealed the signs of their demise, which my destination person put to "drugs."

We are our own keeper - and that's not only half-way houses - or prisons.

Sorry - digression alert.

Joe K

[Bob Bidonde]

The input shaft of the transmission can be the culprit. The tip of the shaft that fits into the pilot bearing has probably been spinning in the bearing during the car's lifetime and has considerable wear. The war allows the transmission shaft to chatter in the bearing.
I fixed the wear in the transmission that is currently in my Victoria. When the pilot bearing to transmission shaft fit is right, the shaft will be a line fit in the pilot bearing with enough friction so that the shaft does not spin in the bearing. In other words, the shaft should drive the pilot bearing to spin. Considering that the shaft is stationary in the bearing, I built up the wear in the shaft with JB Weld. After a few thousand miles of use, and one long distance trip, this fix is working.

[Dino's A]

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If you are lucky to have some N.O.S.ones that are real old, the bearing was not sealed. So, you were actually able to push grease into the bearing. Yes, they exist but very rare. We had a great lubrication tutorial meeting with Chris W. from the Arcadia Santa Anita Model A club. He brought one to show that it used to be possible. I wish they could just make them that way, as we are car enthusiasts that will grease the bearing on a regular basis. Pulling & separating the motor & trans is not high on my list of car maintenance.

[BillCNC]

I agree with Bob, it's probably the pilot bearing. If you replace one, replace the other as well.

Regards
Bill

[tumblindice]

Thanks, everyone. I will be replacing both of those bearings when I pull the flywheel to have it lightened next year, and know that (sadly) the quality of any bearings on the market are somehow not up to what Henry was able to produce 100 years ago.


With regards to the input shaft, if the wear is on the shaft as opposed to the pilot bearing, I assume the shaft would need to be sleeved and the new bearing turned down to fit correctly?

[nkaminar]

The grease fitting is for the housing that moves when you push in the clutch pedal and that the throw out bearing is mounted on. There is no way to grease the bearing itself. You may try to add a little heavy oil, like STP to the bearing but if it is sealed no oil will go in.

Clutch chattering is usually caused by other things such as the fingers that the throw out bearing pushes against not be adjusted correctly or grease on the clutch face or other reasons associated with the clutch itself. The added grease on the housing probably dampened the chattering but will not last, as you found out. Your best bet is to take the clutch apart and renew it, including the pilot bearing, clutch plate, and throw out bearing, and renewing the pressure plate and flywheel if they are bad. But before you do that, try adjusting the fingers that do the work. They have to be set equal within 0.002 inch, or essentially equal.

[Bigsnapper43]

There is a bearing with a few thousants smaller id. We have been removing the input shaft and turning it to the smaller diameter. So far we have not had the oppurtinity to see how this repair is holding up.

[CWPASADENA]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

The grease fitting is for the housing that moves when you push in the clutch pedal and that the throw out bearing is mounted on. There is no way to grease the bearing itself.

Henry designed the clutch thrust bearing (throw out bearing) and the clutch thrust bearing hub (the part the bearing mounts on) so both can be lubricated. Putting grease thru the grease fitting on the hub will also grease the bearing. There are 4 radial holes in the original hubs that match up with a gap between the rotating and fixed parts of the bearing. When you pump grease thru the grease fitting, grease will also find its way up into the bearing. The Model A Ford Instruction Book (owner's manual shows this fitting as the "Clutch Thrust Bearing" fitting. I greased the clutch thrust bearing on my Tudor a few weeks ago using the fitting on the hub.

I have seen some hubs without the radial holes. I suspect these are replacement parts.



Chris W.

[tumblindice]

Thanks for all of the input, everyone. I will double-check clutch finger adjustment in the meantime. I am planning on pulling the flywheel next summer, so I would just like to keep the car on the road until I can give everything a full refresh down there at the same time.

Is there any way to visually tell if the throwout bearing is a new, sealed type, or a greaseable original just from what I'm able to see through the inspection cover?

[nkaminar]

Chris, Thanks for the clarification. I learn something new every time I open the Barn Forum.

The throwout bearings I have bought new are sealed so no grease gets in. But they do last for a long time. I put the car in neutral and take my foot off the clutch when at a stop for a while, like at a light. That takes some wear away from the throwout bearing and the trust bearing on the crankshaft.

[tumblindice]

I just wanted to bump this thread a bit -- is there any way to visually determine what bearing style is installed in the car without pulling the clutch?



Also -- is it possible to determine visually when the correct amount of grease has been pumped into the bearing, sealed or not?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by tumblindice

I just wanted to bump this thread a bit -- is there any way to visually determine what bearing style is installed in the car without pulling the clutch?



Also -- is it possible to determine visually when the correct amount of grease has been pumped into the bearing, sealed or not?

Not as far as I know but I'm inclined to think your problem is the pilot bearing. I would check it out and while I was in there, replace it regardless. The nose of the gearbox input shaft is 17 mm diameter. Like the bearings in Model A gearboxes, it is metric which makes finding replacements easy. The pilot bearing is bearing number 6203-2RS which means it is a 6203 bearing with 2 rubber seals to keep out the dust and crap. I understand there is a hybrid bearing available which is the same as the 6203 bearing except that the ID is 5/8". I do not know if they are available with dust seals. If you can get one of those, take out the input shaft and have the nose turned down to fit the 5/8" ID of it. Problem solved!
Be aware that the metal you have to turn down is hardened. I strongly suspect that is because it was hardened only because it was in the furnace when the shaft, spline and gear were hardened, not because it has to be hard.
I put a mild steel sleeve on the input shaft and all seems well but I haven't put it back in the car yet. I figure if JB weld is good enough, a steel sleeve certainly will be.
Please let us know what you finally find and do.

[tumblindice]

I appreciate the input! I will be digging into this further and replacing everything in there this summer. I will probably update back here what I find and what ends up happening, for future reference.



I also should provide an update. The rattling sound turned out to be a loose radiator support rod. I tightened it back and the rattling was gone and the car is.... quiet!



That said, there is a small squealing noise coming from the bellhousing area, I think. Almost like a belt squeal, but it goes away when I depress the clutch pedal. Investigating further this weekend. I am just overly cautious about overgreasing in here, especially since I already pumped a good bit of grease in there a while ago....

[Cape Codder]

Originally Posted by tumblindice

Thanks, everyone. I will be replacing both of those bearings when I pull the flywheel to have it lightened next year, and know that (sadly) the quality of any bearings on the market are somehow not up to what Henry was able to produce 100 years ago.


With regards to the input shaft, if the wear is on the shaft as opposed to the pilot bearing, I assume the shaft would need to be sleeved and the new bearing turned down to fit correctly?

I just had the shaft sleeved to the size of the NEW what ever I.D. it was. I would think turning the I.D. of the bearing would be a hassle.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Not as far as I know but I'm inclined to think your problem is the pilot bearing. I would check it out and while I was in there, replace it regardless. The nose of the gearbox input shaft is 17 mm diameter. Like the bearings in Model A gearboxes, it is metric which makes finding replacements easy.

Does anyone use brass pilot bearing anymore? I found a couple in my parts bin a while back.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I understand there is a hybrid bearing available which is the same as the 6203 bearing except that the ID is 5/8".

6203-2RS-5/8"

https://www.bearingscanada.com/6203-...IaAgnMEALw_wcB

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by katy

6203-2RS-5/8"

https://www.bearingscanada.com/6203-...IaAgnMEALw_wcB

Thanks, Katy. At least I now know that they are available but I'll try my usual supplier who is just up the road from me, not half way around the world. The freight would be a killer.