question about Brake Adjustments

[jack&leonard]

Hi,

Short background on myself - I'm 23 and have grown up working on and driving my grandfathers Model A with him. My grandfather is no longer able to work on the car in the garage with me due to his health, but still loves to ride in the car and go to shows with me! I'm pretty good at rebuilding a carburetor and other general maintenance, but don't have the experience to diagnose problems all that well (yet).

Our Model A ('29 Roadster) has been making terrible sounds while braking, especially when the brakes are cold.

I decided to follow the steps to adjust the brakes:
- loosen adjustment bolts on each brake till wheel spins freely
- use a wood stick to depress brake peddle 1" and tighten adjustment bolt till brakes drag
- depress brake peddle 1.5" and tighten adjustment bolt till brakes are tight
- depress brake peddle 2" till brakes tighten adjustment bolt till brakes are locked

The problem is that turning my adjustment bolt 1 click can be the difference of no drag at all and full lock.

I also noticed that (without turning the adjustment bolt) the tire will spin about 1/2 turn completely free, then it'll be heavy drag, then back to completely free and so (not necessarily in the same intervals. i.e. 2 turns no drag, 1/3 turn heavy drag, 1 turn no drag, 3/4 turn heavy drag etc). Again, this is without turning the adjustment knobs at all.

Attempting to make the adjustments made this issue a lot worse and the car is currently un-drivable.

Please let me know what you think the issue is.
- Is it an adjustment issue or do I need new parts to install, which parts.
- How hard of a job is it to install said parts, etc.

Like most of you, I like getting my hands dirty and fixing things on my own, but if this is going to require unique tools or be an advanced job in some way, I'm willing to take it to a Model A shop that we've used before.

Thank you all for your help in advanced!

[Jacksonlll]

You probably should get in there and see what you have. My guess is that you do need a pretty extensive brake job, lining, bushings, tracks and maybe drums, and some small parts. Not expensive but a lot of work. Sounds like you could do the job. To have someone do it for you would be expensive, but You could send them out and get it done.
If you do it yourself, the parts would not cost much. It is a lot of work, but we all did it when we were young. Nothing hard to figure out, and you probably can't screw anything up You will learn a ton and it would be fun. You can get a lot of help on this forum. Good luck.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Jack & Leonard,

To save many hours, eliminate wasting money on incorrect parts, and enjoying far more "riding time" than "repairing time", it is strongly suggested that you do like most and order, receive and begin reading the wonderful Les Andrews Volume I "Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook".

After less than an hour of reading and looking at diagrams, you will be happy that you ordered this handbook.

[cpf240]

Is there a Model A club in your area? If there is, I'm sure someone in the club would be happy to go over it with you.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

You probably should get in there and see what you have. My guess is that you do need a pretty extensive brake job, lining, bushings, tracks and maybe drums, and some small parts. Not expensive but a lot of work. Sounds like you could do the job. To have someone do it for you would be expensive, but You could send them out and get it done.
If you do it yourself, the parts would not cost much. It is a lot of work, but we all did it when we were young. Nothing hard to figure out, and you probably can't screw anything up You will learn a ton and it would be fun. You can get a lot of help on this forum. Good luck.

WELCOME!!!!!

As for your problem, what he said It sounds like you are beyond a simple adjustment.

[jack&leonard]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Jacksonlll

You probably should get in there and see what you have. My guess is that you do need a pretty extensive brake job, lining, bushings, tracks and maybe drums, and some small parts. Not expensive but a lot of work. Sounds like you could do the job. To have someone do it for you would be expensive, but You could send them out and get it done.
If you do it yourself, the parts would not cost much. It is a lot of work, but we all did it when we were young. Nothing hard to figure out, and you probably can't screw anything up You will learn a ton and it would be fun. You can get a lot of help on this forum. Good luck.

Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Jack & Leonard,

To save many hours, eliminate wasting money on incorrect parts, and enjoying far more "riding time" than "repairing time", it is strongly suggested that you do like most and order, receive and begin reading the wonderful Les Andrews Volume I "Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook".

After less than an hour of reading and looking at diagrams, you will be happy that you ordered this handbook.

Would this give me a pretty good idea of what's involved in a full brake job as mentioned above?

While I wait for that book to arrive, do you have any recommendation for an online source that may give me an idea of whats involved with a full brake job?

Also, I want to avoid replacing parts that don't need to be replaced.

Originally Posted by cpf240

Is there a Model A club in your area? If there is, I'm sure someone in the club would be happy to go over it with you.

Yes, there is (San Diego), but before calling in favors I always like to see what I can do.

Thanks for the quick info!

- Jack

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Jack,

Your interest in Model A's is just remarkable.

Until your book comes in try going on line and Googling How to adjust Model A Brakes?

For example: Maybe, "Ford Model A Brakes - YouTube"

[jack&leonard]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Hi Jack,

Your interest in Model A's is just remarkable.

Until your book comes in try going on line and Googling How to adjust Model A Brakes?

For example: Maybe, "Ford Model A Brakes - YouTube"

Thanks! They're fun!

I've been googling as you mentioned above.

This is a great video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd5RnwT4asE

Do you have any recommendation on how I could tell if the drums are bad?

It seems that I could replace the linings, bushings and tracks; but replacing the hubs may be a bit much for me. It sounds like you need a hydraulic press to install the new studs.

I may pull the brakes apart tomorrow to see if anything obvious jumps out at me as an issue.

[Synchro909]

Your learning curve is about to take off.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Jack,

When performing a complete brake restoration, never a bad idea to have a Brake Centering Tool; plus, with your comment:

"I also noticed that (without turning the adjustment bolt) the tire will spin about 1/2 turn completely free, then it'll be heavy drag, then back to completely free and so (not necessarily in the same intervals. i.e. 2 turns no drag, 1/3 turn heavy drag, 1 turn no drag, 3/4 turn heavy drag etc). Again, this is without turning the adjustment knobs at all."

Although difficult to "see" what you have from far away, the above statement leads one to suspect you will need a Brake Centering Tool to verify that the brake shoes and brake bands are concentric; e.g., having all of the outer circumferences of the brake bands equidistant from the the center of the axle such that the entire circumferences of the brake bands contact the inner surface of the metal drum when the brake pedal is depressed.

[Jacksonlll]

Join the local club and tell them what you intend to do and step back and see what happens.

[Tom Wesenberg]

While you wait for the books to arrive, you can remove the front hubs and post pictures of what you find inside. The front bearings can be cleaned inspected and repacked.

Do the same with the rear, but you'll need a special puller to remove the drum and hub from the keyed tapered axle.

[Y-Blockhead]

As mentioned, if you haven't already, join the San Diego club. They will not only have the knowledge but the special tools (like the hub puller that Tom mentioned) you will need. Unless you like having your own tools (as I do) but at an added expense.

Good luck and welcome to the Barn.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

"Sounds" as if your drums "might" be out of round & "might" need turning??
Bill Screech

[Bob C]

You might want to contact Randy Gross if you need brake parts.

Mel Gross
Senior Member

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 457


Brake drums - cast iron

City: Montebello
State: CA
Price: 0000000

New cast iron brake drums - $65.00 each plus shipping. We have been supplying these to Model A'ers for over 10 years now. Les Andrews buys them from us, why not you! Researched and written up in "Model A Times" for their high quality. Model A Times and The Victoria Bustle articles available upon request. We stock relined brake shoes, emergency bands and studs and can ship them with the drums. We also can swage your hubs on our drums! Please include your zip code when responding to determine shipping cost. Call us at 714-292-8660 or email us at [email protected] for additional information. Thanks

Bob

[Jim M]

Can't say enough good things about Randy. I had mine done there and they turned out beautiful and work like a charm. I bet I spent more for parts and band aid fixes (including having my old drums turned down!) over the last five years and had horrible results. Sent them out to Randy, put them on and like night and day. I am old school where you fixed everything you owned by your self but age and wisdom(?) has taught me sometimes you need the expert who does them every day. We live and learn - even at 73 - although my wife probably would not agree..........lol

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

When turning the adjusting bolt, after it clicks, wiggle it back and forth to make sue it's centered in the groove.if it's not all the way in, then that could explain one click making such a huge difference in clearance.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Do what Chuck just said, then also give the brake lever a little tug to apply the brake to make sure it's centered, then try to spin the tire. Be sure the jack stands are under the axles when adjusting the brakes, rather than under the frame.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by jack&leonard

... before calling in favors I always like to see what I can do.


- Jack

I don't know what your experience has been with other clubs but a Model A club here in Florida would never consider it calling in a favor. We have gone in mass to homes of owners that are not even members to lend a hand.

[H. L. Chauvin]

The front and rear wheel diagrams in Model A parts catalogs are great to see not only what goes where; but also to reference for ordering new parts especially where the original Ford part numbers are not indicated in some of the Model A parts catalogs.

Before removing drums to see what you have, with just your current description of what happened and also what is happening when you try to adjust brakes, it appears that the odds are likely that you will find a typical Model A mechanical brake system that has not been properly lubricated & maintained as often as necessary for years.

So often & typical is that one finds worn roller tracks, hard caked semi-dry vintage wax grease around the brake adjustment wedges, worn rear wheel bushings and shafts, worn pins, & in general, worn metal to metal moving parts.

After thorough cleaning of all existing parts, after removing worn parts, and during reassembly, rather than use any old cheap lubricant, best to provide and apply a very high heat resistant synthetic brake caliper lubricant on moving parts, (e.g. by "Permatex", Dynatex", etc.), formulated especially for metal to metal contact of mechanical brakes ............. especially if you are 23 years old and want things to last.

[jack&leonard]

Hi Everyone! Thank you all for the support on this issue!!!

This is an amazing forum and I'm very excited to become an active member!

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

When turning the adjusting bolt, after it clicks, wiggle it back and forth to make sue it's centered in the groove.if it's not all the way in, then that could explain one click making such a huge difference in clearance.

This is a great idea! Will try while I wait for books and figure out where to go from there.

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Do what Chuck just said, then also give the brake lever a little tug to apply the brake to make sure it's centered, then try to spin the tire. Be sure the jack stands are under the axles when adjusting the brakes, rather than under the frame.

Great tip! Thanks!

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I don't know what your experience has been with other clubs but a Model A club here in Florida would never consider it calling in a favor. We have gone in mass to homes of owners that are not even members to lend a hand.

All my experiences with the club so far have been great and I'm sure none of them would expect anything in return for their assistance! Still, the members that have helped me in the past make quite a drive to come to my garage and I only like to enlist them if needed!

Sounds like they may have some tools that will help me out though!

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

The front and rear wheel diagrams in Model A parts catalogs are great to see not only what goes where; but also to reference for ordering new parts especially where the original Ford part numbers are not indicated in some of the Model A parts catalogs.

Before removing drums to see what you have, with just your current description of what happened and also what is happening when you try to adjust brakes, it appears that the odds are likely that you will find a typical Model A mechanical brake system that has not been properly lubricated & maintained as often as necessary for years.

So often & typical is that one finds worn roller tracks, hard caked semi-dry vintage wax grease around the brake adjustment wedges, worn rear wheel bushings and shafts, worn pins, & in general, worn metal to metal moving parts.

After thorough cleaning of all existing parts, after removing worn parts, and during reassembly, rather than use any old cheap lubricant, best to provide and apply a very high heat resistant synthetic brake caliper lubricant on moving parts, (e.g. by "Permatex", Dynatex", etc.), formulated especially for metal to metal contact of mechanical brakes ............. especially if you are 23 years old and want things to last.

In all honesty, this is probably the issue and my fault. In hind sight, I've not been greasing the components as my grandfather had been and I need to get better about this. (Live and learn...). I plan to go through and grease everything I can before the car goes out on the road again!

Thank you everyone for your help!
Please keep any more tips on this subject coming.

[Tom F OHIO]

Hi Jack,
Is it a possibility to take the hub off and have a nice soft chair for your grandpa to sit on and maybe tell you what to do? He has probably forgot more than what a lot know. You say he can ride in the car so this might be fun for the both of you. When I rebuilt my engine I had a friend that was close to 90 sit and tell me exactly what to do and my engine turned out great.
Tom....

[RonC]

Originally Posted by jack&leonard

Hi,

Short background on myself - I'm 23 and have grown up working on and driving my grandfathers Model A with him. My grandfather is no longer able to work on the car in the garage with me due to his health, but still loves to ride in the car and go to shows with me! I'm pretty good at rebuilding a carburetor and other general maintenance, but don't have the experience to diagnose problems all that well (yet).

Our Model A ('29 Roadster) has been making terrible sounds while braking, especially when the brakes are cold.

I decided to follow the steps to adjust the brakes:
- loosen adjustment bolts on each brake till wheel spins freely
- use a wood stick to depress brake peddle 1" and tighten adjustment bolt till brakes drag
- depress brake peddle 1.5" and tighten adjustment bolt till brakes are tight
- depress brake peddle 2" till brakes tighten adjustment bolt till brakes are locked

The problem is that turning my adjustment bolt 1 click can be the difference of no drag at all and full lock.

I also noticed that (without turning the adjustment bolt) the tire will spin about 1/2 turn completely free, then it'll be heavy drag, then back to completely free and so (not necessarily in the same intervals. i.e. 2 turns no drag, 1/3 turn heavy drag, 1 turn no drag, 3/4 turn heavy drag etc). Again, this is without turning the adjustment knobs at all.

Attempting to make the adjustments made this issue a lot worse and the car is currently un-drivable.

Please let me know what you think the issue is.
- Is it an adjustment issue or do I need new parts to install, which parts.
- How hard of a job is it to install said parts, etc.

Like most of you, I like getting my hands dirty and fixing things on my own, but if this is going to require unique tools or be an advanced job in some way, I'm willing to take it to a Model A shop that we've used before.

Thank you all for your help in advanced!

Sounds like your drum is out of round as most originals are. I would invest in new drums. It could also be a severely worn brake track. Your adjustment procedure should be per Fords recommendations. Ford issued repair instructions to Ford repair shops. These instructions were called service bulletins and can be purchased as a book today. They have a very detailed brake adjustment procedure follow it. I would start by pulling your drums and inspecting your brake system.