The Ford Barn

frederic · 01-22-2016, 09:56 AM

Looking for a few opinions on starter replacement. I have a 59ab flat head and yesterday starter did not start. just whines and whirls when button is pushed. Now my system is a dual 12 v/6v system. 12 volt for starter and 6 for the rest of the car. The starter is 6v and operates by running thru an Orpin (??) switch and dual solenoid. (for lack of correct name)
I have not taken it apart yet but am thinking it is either the Bendix section of starter that failed or (heaven please not) stripped ring teeth. It has been operating this way for years and very effective but maybe a bit high speed RPM. QUESTIONS: replace bendix part? (if problem) Replace with another standard 6v starter or 12v type ? (I assume if I use a 12v it would slow down the RPM to more normal rate) OR Try one of those newer "High Torque" 12v starters? (have seen them but never had experience with them and any suggestions as to brand if I decide to to that route.)

Perhaps some of you will have some experience in this and thank you for answers/opinions

Frederic

51 MERC-CT · 01-22-2016, 10:12 AM

If the starter rotates it's most likely the Bendix that is bad.

Kube · 01-22-2016, 10:17 AM

By the description of the sounds it is making, my guess is it is the bendix. Might be a s simple as the spring broke. If it were broken teeth, you would have had some ugly sounds, growing worse over a period of time.

JSeery · 01-22-2016, 10:45 AM

Believe 12v on a 6v starter has a repetition of braking bendix springs (over time), so that would be the place to start looking.

34PKUP · 01-22-2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSeery

Believe 12v on a 6v starter has a repetition of braking bendix springs (over time), so that would be the place to start looking.

And what about all the bendix springs that broke on 6 volts over time.
Why did they break?

JSeery · 01-22-2016, 11:10 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 34PKUP

And what about all the bendix springs that broke on 6 volts over time.
Why did they break?

Not sure what the point is here, I'm sure bendix springs break on 6v. A lot of folks that switch to 12v and keep the 6v starters carry an extra bendix because they are much more likely to break with the 12v system. The bendix hits much harder on 12v. There is also the option to switch to the later style bendix.

Jack E/NJ · 01-22-2016, 11:23 AM

Frederic>>>I have a 59ab flat head and yesterday starter did not start. just whines and whirls when button is pushed.>>>

Might want to try it again some other time. Sliding gears sometimes get stuck.

Jack E/NJ

Ed Pitts · 01-22-2016, 12:06 PM

Here is a thread that will provide the information you need. Ed

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...2+volt+starter

flatjack9 · 01-22-2016, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSeery

Believe 12v on a 6v starter has a repetition of braking bendix springs (over time), so that would be the place to start looking.

Mine's been operating on 12v for over 20 years now without a problem.

JSeery · 01-22-2016, 01:31 PM

Ok, I say uncle, apparently 12v on 6v starters very rarely break the bendix spring and reports to the contrary are exaggerated!

Ol' Ron · 01-22-2016, 02:37 PM

Been using the stock ford starter since before time was invented. Most directly on 12V. Never had a problem. Reason:: I always carry a spare.

51 MERC-CT · 01-22-2016, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Been using the stock ford starter since before time was invented. Most directly on 12V. Never had a problem. Reason:: I always carry a spare.

Yep, can remember when I was involved with the circle track stock cars back in the early 50's running two 6 volt batteries in series. Very few if any 12 volt batteries at the time and don't recall any bendix drives that failed because of the 12 volts.

frederic · 01-22-2016, 03:26 PM

Took out starter today and front bolt holding the spring sheared off. lock washer also drilled out broken bolt and slid bendix unit off shaft. many pieces fell off once off shaft. bolt head and washer still in pan. Drained oil and fished with fingers and probe now off to get a LONG magnetic felxable toool !!!! when replacing a bendix unit must one torque the spring around the shaft to put tension on it or does it just free float. First starter I have ever had trouble with and me at 73 now. Wish they made people like they used to make old ford parts !!

Any one still sell goood old American bendix units.

thanks for the insight and suggestions

Frederic

john in illinois · 01-22-2016, 04:03 PM

Mac Van Pelt. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm

green50 · 01-22-2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frederic

Took out starter today and front bolt holding the spring sheared off. lock washer also drilled out broken bolt and slid bendix unit off shaft. many pieces fell off once off shaft. bolt head and washer still in pan. Drained oil and fished with fingers and probe now off to get a LONG magnetic felxable toool !!!! when replacing a bendix unit must one torque the spring around the shaft to put tension on it or does it just free float. First starter I have ever had trouble with and me at 73 now. Wish they made people like they used to make old ford parts !!

Any one still sell goood old American bendix units.

thanks for the insight and suggestions

Frederic

Frederic, I had the same problem. Someone installed the incorrect bolt on one end of the spring and it came off, causing the same symptom you described. I used a long telescoping magnet to retrieve the bolt. No tension on the spring is needed to reinstall. Good Luck.

r_reed · 01-22-2016, 06:14 PM

make sure you get your bolts correct when you bolt the bendix back on. one bolt has a dowel pin end that goes into the starter shaft. also make sure you have the lock tab washers to keep them from backing out. replacement bolt sets are available and prices vary widely.

Graeme / New Zealand · 01-22-2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john in illinois

Mac Van Pelt. http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm

Yes I'd back a replacement from Mac Van Pelt. My starter was giving me issues and had to remove it 3 times and believe me it is no fun when your car is right hand drive like mine as the steering box is in the way. I had my 6v starter fully rebuilt and got a new bendix drive from Mac VP, it is US made too, not a Chinese "knock- off". best thing I ever did. and Mac is a good bloke to boot.

GB

Walt Dupont--Me. · 01-22-2016, 08:01 PM

I've broke starter springs in my many years of flatheads, I've gone to the Barrel drive, in my 40 and My model A, they seem to be impossible to break, There hard to install in the 8ba engine, have to do a little grinding, But they will fit right in the 59ab and early engines and Model A-B engines. You said you drained the oil to try to find broken starter drive parts, they wouldn't be in the oil pan, they would be flywheel section of the pan. Walt

Mike in AZ · 01-22-2016, 10:59 PM

was wondering about draining oil also....Mike

Dodge · 01-23-2016, 12:33 AM

An old trick I learned was to take an old bendix spring and use it like a resistor. You have
to grind one end that the bolt goes thru down enough to put it over the stud on the starter. Then put a bolt thru the other end for the battery cable. This reduces the 12v
down to were the starter spins a lot faster than the 6volts. but doesn't kill the starter.

And don't knock it until you try it......

01-22-2016, 09:56 AM	#1
frederic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 350	Advise, starter Looking for a few opinions on starter replacement. I have a 59ab flat head and yesterday starter did not start. just whines and whirls when button is pushed. Now my system is a dual 12 v/6v system. 12 volt for starter and 6 for the rest of the car. The starter is 6v and operates by running thru an Orpin (??) switch and dual solenoid. (for lack of correct name) I have not taken it apart yet but am thinking it is either the Bendix section of starter that failed or (heaven please not) stripped ring teeth. It has been operating this way for years and very effective but maybe a bit high speed RPM. QUESTIONS: replace bendix part? (if problem) Replace with another standard 6v starter or 12v type ? (I assume if I use a 12v it would slow down the RPM to more normal rate) OR Try one of those newer "High Torque" 12v starters? (have seen them but never had experience with them and any suggestions as to brand if I decide to to that route.) Perhaps some of you will have some experience in this and thank you for answers/opinions Frederic

01-22-2016, 10:12 AM	#2
51 MERC-CT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: East Hartford, Ct Posts: 5,898	Re: Advise, starter If the starter rotates it's most likely the Bendix that is bad. __________________ DON'T RECALL DOING SOMETHING FOR MYSELF BASED ON SOMEONE ELSE'S LIKES OR DISLIKES

01-22-2016, 10:17 AM	#3
Kube Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9,007	Re: Advise, starter By the description of the sounds it is making, my guess is it is the bendix. Might be a s simple as the spring broke. If it were broken teeth, you would have had some ugly sounds, growing worse over a period of time. __________________ "I can explain it for you. However, I can't understand it for you".

01-22-2016, 10:45 AM	#4
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Advise, starter Believe 12v on a 6v starter has a repetition of braking bendix springs (over time), so that would be the place to start looking.

01-22-2016, 11:23 AM	#7
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Advise, starter Frederic>>>I have a 59ab flat head and yesterday starter did not start. just whines and whirls when button is pushed.>>> Might want to try it again some other time. Sliding gears sometimes get stuck. Jack E/NJ

01-22-2016, 12:06 PM	#8
Ed Pitts Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Irving, Texas Posts: 598	Re: Advise, starter Here is a thread that will provide the information you need. Ed http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...2+volt+starter

01-22-2016, 01:31 PM	#10
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Advise, starter Ok, I say uncle, apparently 12v on 6v starters very rarely break the bendix spring and reports to the contrary are exaggerated!

01-22-2016, 02:37 PM	#11
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Advise, starter Been using the stock ford starter since before time was invented. Most directly on 12V. Never had a problem. Reason:: I always carry a spare.

01-22-2016, 03:26 PM	#13
frederic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 350	Re: Advise, starter Took out starter today and front bolt holding the spring sheared off. lock washer also drilled out broken bolt and slid bendix unit off shaft. many pieces fell off once off shaft. bolt head and washer still in pan. Drained oil and fished with fingers and probe now off to get a LONG magnetic felxable toool !!!! when replacing a bendix unit must one torque the spring around the shaft to put tension on it or does it just free float. First starter I have ever had trouble with and me at 73 now. Wish they made people like they used to make old ford parts !! Any one still sell goood old American bendix units. thanks for the insight and suggestions Frederic

01-22-2016, 06:14 PM	#16
r_reed Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: east glenville NY Posts: 158	Re: Advise, starter make sure you get your bolts correct when you bolt the bendix back on. one bolt has a dowel pin end that goes into the starter shaft. also make sure you have the lock tab washers to keep them from backing out. replacement bolt sets are available and prices vary widely. __________________ 1949 F-1 Flatrod II (flat paint, flat motor) Keeping one more flathead alive It smoked, but gave it up 7/26/2013 East Glenville NY

01-22-2016, 08:01 PM	#18
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: Advise, starter I've broke starter springs in my many years of flatheads, I've gone to the Barrel drive, in my 40 and My model A, they seem to be impossible to break, There hard to install in the 8ba engine, have to do a little grinding, But they will fit right in the 59ab and early engines and Model A-B engines. You said you drained the oil to try to find broken starter drive parts, they wouldn't be in the oil pan, they would be flywheel section of the pan. Walt

01-22-2016, 10:59 PM	#19
Mike in AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waddell, AZ Posts: 2,540	Re: Advise, starter was wondering about draining oil also....Mike

01-23-2016, 12:33 AM	#20
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,497	Re: Advise, starter An old trick I learned was to take an old bendix spring and use it like a resistor. You have to grind one end that the bolt goes thru down enough to put it over the stud on the starter. Then put a bolt thru the other end for the battery cable. This reduces the 12v down to were the starter spins a lot faster than the 6volts. but doesn't kill the starter. And don't knock it until you try it......