Basic advice

[Mr. J]

I've gotten interested in fixing up my great grandfather's model A pickup and I'm in need of some basic advice.
It's sat in a shed for close to 40 years and I finally got it running thanks to the help of the archives on here, but I've still got a few issues, I've gotta get worked out before she's road worthy.
She leaks gas out of the carb (tilly) where the half's meet and out of a port or something where the gas line comes in, oil leak where the flywheel housing bolts to the block and she's running hot.
Any advice on the carb leak would be great, as for the oil leak I was wondering if it would be easier to pull the motor or block the engine up and take the tranny out, and for the running hot I'm going to flush the radiator and block out tonight, any other ideas on what would cause it to over heat would be great.

[700rpm]

Tillys are notorious for warping. Replace it with a Zenith. Overheating is caused by bad radiators and rusty clogged water jackets in the engine, at least. There are myriad other things that can cause it: bad timing; brakes misadjusted; rings too tight: bearings too tight; incorrect use of the spark lever; bad head gasket; cracked block and/or head; malfunctioning water pump; or, if you have one, a stuck thermostat.

The oil leak is most likely a bad rear main, but could be a clogged filler pipe or return pipe on the rear main.

Probably some other stuff I haven't experienced yet!

Good luck!

[1955cj5]

You can get rebuild kits for the Tillotson..

https://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=3998

Most auto parts stores sell a gallon can of carb cleaner with a tray....

More info here....

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226173


.

[1955cj5]

Other useful general information here....The Model A Instruction Book....

http://www.motormayhem.net/wp-upload...ion-Manual.pdf

[Mr. J]

I really appreciate the advice, but I really don't believe it's the rear main because it's leaking from the outside on the passenger side right behind the valve cover, all I was wondering was could I just remover the tranny and get to the gasket between the flywheel housing and the block?

[Marshall V. Daut]

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That kind of oil leaking usually does mean either the flywheel housing-to-block gasket is bad or wasn't installed, as you suspected. It's an easy thing to miss during engine assembly, especially for amateurs doing their first Model A engine. It's not intuitive where it goes, so it's easily overlooked or ignored, as are other gaskets in an engine set that fit certain applications, but not all.
If you are certain the rear main is not leaking or the back lower corner of the valve cover, you'll be pulling the engine just to install this 75 cent gasket. 'Sorry...
Marshall

[Mr. J]

So you can't get to it from the tranny side?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

So you can't get to it from the tranny side?

I'd go along with the advice to pull the engine. I think it will be easier in the long run. To get to the gasket (or where it should be!), the clutch and flywheel assembly has to come off along with the flywheel housing. The flywheel is HEAVY. You might get them out OK but putting them back while laying on your back will make you wish you had pulled the engine. You might even give up and do it anyway.

[Bill G]

Even dropping the tranny without pulling the engine involves dropping the whole rear-end, and I understand the rear spring makes that a very difficult process.

I asked the same question and went through this process just to replace clutch and pedal bushings. I also replaced the whole clutch, but it involved an engine pull to change out the clutch. One friend said in his mind it was 50/50 as to whether to pull the engine or rear end. Two others said hands down, engine is easier.

I have never dealt with the rear, but threads on this forum indicate that it might be a little above my pay grade.

[J Franklin]

If it is not a gusher I think you may find yourself with more work than you think. Once open there will be other considerations before buttoning it up. There really shouldn't be much oil in the flywheel housing anyway except from worn cam bearing area.

[1955cj5]

This might be the source of the oil leak. The cam has no oil seal at the back, and that is where that gasket is needed.

In this picture of the back of the engine you are looking at the cam in the upper right side....

[1crosscut]

As to your running hot.

Make sure the timing is set correctly. Start by making sure the arm on the back side of the distributor body travels fully side to side in the slot. If not rectify that first then re-set the timing and see if that stops the overheating.
Are you sure it is actually running hot? Have you checked the water temperature with a thermometer? An inexpensive meat thermometer dipped into the coolant is one of the best ways to actually know what the temperature is.

If re-setting the timing does not correct it...
Check to see that the fins have a good connection to the tubes.
There is not super thick paint on the tubes and fins.
Fan belt is turning the fan. (Do not get it too tight)

If those are good then...
Pull the radiator out and clean it by turning it upside down and back flushing it to get rust flakes that may be sitting on top of the tubes out.
After giving it a good rinsing in all directions plug the bottom tube and the overflow tube. I use a piece of scrap inner tube and a hose clamp for the large outlet and a small piece of dowel or such pushed into the overflow tube to plug it. Put in 1 gallon of undiluted Simple Green in and replace the cap. Invert it several times a day for a few days to a week. This will get the grease and grime out of it. If you had a bunch of rust come out in the initial flush you may need to put in something to dissolve that. Others will have suggestions for that.

While the radiator is out put a garden hose at full bore into the inlet on the side of the engine along with air from your compressor and flush the block out.

All worth a try as a new radiator is pretty spendy.

[Mr. J]

Thank you, I will try that, I hadn't thought to use a meat thermometer I'll try that tomorrow if I get home in time, as for the carb leak the two half's are warped and the float was cracked I sanded the bottom half with 800 grit sand paper against a 1in. Sheet of metal I got it flat, but I don't know how to sand the top half as I don't have a mill to set it in, I read somewhere that you could put two gaskets in and take up the space, and as for the oil leak, could I clean up the outside and put a bead of high temp rtv down where the two meet?

[RawhideKid]

Mr.J One thing you can do to help out the over heating is while you have the radiator off the car, simply lay it down flat and pour a gallon of vinegar in it and let it sit a couple days. I have back flushed and even with all that done, after removing the vinegar, I was able to wash out the radiator from the bottom and got quite a few chunks of rust out of it, and this is after a radiator shop did a weekend in the hot tank to clean it!

When you empty the vinegar out, strain it through a cloth and see how much rust comes out. BTW, the vinegar can be used more than once. I don't recommend using vinegar through the engine, because if you don't get it ALL out of the engine, it WILL continue to eat the cast iron!

[Mr. J]

The reason I thought it might be gummed up is it has been sitting snice 84, but lucky the first time it had even seen daylight since 02 was this past weekend

[larrys40]

All good advice above and I'm with pulling the engine if it's truly leaking badly from that area. Be sure to look closely and make sure it's not leaking from the oil return tube as it can run down to the back as well. If you do decide to pull the engine and do all that make sure you Clean it well, use rtv around the rear cam hole and then the gasket. I might suggest pulling the half moon rear main cover behind the oil pan and running the engine to see where things are leaking. Wipe it down well first so you can see the fresh oil.

Of course while the engine is out if that's the direction there's lots of other work to do I'm sure. Engine mount rubber and check mounts for cracks. Etc
Larry Shepard

[Mr. J]

It is leaking down from here it wet wet from about where the cam is, I'm sorry I couldn't get a better pic of it.
The other one is where my tilly is warped

[1crosscut]

Heck you might just have a valve cover that is leaking badly.
With a carburetor warped that much I would get a different one.

[Tom Wesenberg]

For a clutch or tranny work I would always pull the rear end, but if the flywheel cover needs to be removed, then I'd pull the engine, since the flywheel cover has the two rear motor mounts on it.


Be sure to locate the leak before you pull the engine. As some have said, it might only be a valve cover or drain pipe. If you pull the engine, then do as Rawhidekid said to the radiator, and I'd block off the inlet and outlet and let the block soak with RUST911 or Evaporust.

[Railcarmover]

Reseal the valve cover and deck the bowl of the Tillotson by rubbing it on a sanding block.

[Mr. J]

I fixed the warped carb this evening, and I was going to hold off on the leak as long as I could and just add as needed, but as for the flush I'm going to have to wait until I have time to drain it and remove it. I really appreciate all the advice and I hope to keep updating as I get time to work on it. I'm just suprised it ran back then because the carb didn't have the gasket between the half's or where it mounted to the manifold.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

A car that has been stored that long will need a COMPLETE overhaul/restoration to EVER drive well. It was "probably" worn out/broken, when it was parked!
Bill W.

[Mr. J]

Actually it ran fine when it was parked, the only reason it was parked was that my great grandfather passed away84, after that it sat in his garage in the dry until 02 where it was moved to a shipping container beside my grandfather's garage and sat there until last week when I moved it into the garage to get it up and running again the brakes work great, the tranny is as smooth as silk and the motor is sound minus the oil leak, the carb, and the possible over heating
I've got a pretty considerable background in automotive and equipment repair all I needed was someone with more experience with model a's to give me some advice on what to look out for, not someone to tell me it has to be completely restored before I'm able to drive it

[1930artdeco]

Mr. J,

Welcome to the club. Since the car sat for so long did you flush out the tank? What about installing the little pencil filter that goes in the gas shut off valve? One little flake of rust will ruin a trip-for awhile at least. Sounds like you have the rest under control. If you end up pulling the engine, you might as well pull covers and check the bearings, valves and clutch while you are at it.

Mike

[Dollar Bill]

"I'm going to flush the radiator and block out tonight, any other ideas on what would cause it to over heat would be great"

Welcome to the Ford Barn!

TW & RK gave you excellent advice on cleaning your cooling system and I too endorse Rust911 over vinegar for rust removal.

As a precaution, remove any lingering grease/oil with dish soap as it will reduce chelant effectiveness. Back flush to get the most sediment possible out of the system.

Add Rust911, filling to just above the radiator flues. Start the engine and allow it to warm up. The Rust911 works better/faster if heated to 150°.

Let it sit for several days starting the engine periodically to heat/circulate the cleaner.

Once you're satisfied you've killed all of the rust in your system, drain and back flush with regular water. As a bonus, save the Rust911 and use it for soaking other rusty metal. The solution will be totally black when used up.

Refill to just above the flues with 50:50 mix of distilled water and your favorite antifreeze.

Most Model A overheating problems are caused by a crudded up radiator. If you later determine the radiator needs to be rodded out, cleaning the system is a great first step.

[Mr. J]

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Thank you, I flushed the tank out with 5 gallons of gas, I've got a filter but I haven't put it on yet and I plan on washing it out the next chance I get. I really appreciate all the advice and will keep posting as I go with it

[Mr. J]

And I will check the motor over with a fine tooth comb when I get it out thank you for the advice

[Mr. J]

So I ran it today awhile and got it upto temp low speed, I ran it a couple of miles and stopped and checked the temp and it was 180-183 sitting at idle, is that normal? I don't know what temps they are suppose to run?

[eagle]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

So I ran it today awhile and got it upto temp low speed, I ran it a couple of miles and stopped and checked the temp and it was 180-183 sitting at idle, is that normal? I don't know what temps they are suppose to run?

It'll be fine as long as it stays below boiling. Check the upper radiator hose some time to see if its got a thermostat in it.

[Mr. J]

Will do, I plan on draining the radiator and putting evaporated or rust911 whichever I can get ahold of and running that thru and then back flushing the whole system

[RawhideKid]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

Will do, I plan on draining the radiator and putting evaporated or rust911 whichever I can get ahold of and running that thru and then back flushing the whole system

If you do a back flush with the radiator still installed, all you will do is complicate the whole situation. When you use a rust remover you want all those loose rust flakes to exit the block, you do not want them entering the radiator, that is the first cause of radiator blockage.

Remove the radiator, lay it flat, use a gallon of vinegar and let that soak a day or two.

Plug the block return and fill the block with rust remover, you can warm this up by running a minute or 3 providing you have a liquid in the block to absorb the heat, DO NOT run the engine empty of liquid. You can save and reuse Evaporust or Rust911, so drain that out through a filter of some type then hook the pressure system to the outlet (some use a pool pump, or a sump pump) and flush out the engine separately. I have even used a old nylon stocking over the return port, just hook it over the pipe with a wire tie. You don't want any of that engine crud in the radiator.

When you remove the radiator leave the short hose and metal pipe hooked to the block, you can use the radiator end of the pipe with the short hose to close off the engine before using your rust remover. Turn the pipe from the radiator position to pointing down so when you flush it it is pointing into the bucket to catch the release of the rust remover. Then you can just remove the bucket with the reclaimed rust remover and pressure flush the rest of the crud from the block to the ground through whatever filter you use. You can even use a second bucket full of water and use that as your source for the pressure flush return and pickup.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Bill is probably more correct then you think. The engine pan and valve galley are full of gunk assuming 40 years of sitting with most likely non detergent oil. Possibly stuck rings,even though it runs ok. If you do clean the galley don't get gunk down the gravity fed bearing feeds. Also I'd be Leary of using detergent oil. Sometimes you get away with it, and sometimes, like the engine I'm rebuilding now, you don't.

[Greg Jones]

Just a thought, also make sure your oil return pipe is not leaking. I had an oil leak in the area you described and discovered a crack in the oil return pipe. Not a big crack, but a leaker nonetheless.

[1crosscut]

Still recommending you soak and flush your radiator with Simple Green before you use the rust remover. I would think having a radiator clean of grease and dirt will allow for a better result with the rust remover.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

Still recommending you soak and flush your radiator with Simple Green before you use the rust remover. I would think having a radiator clean of grease and dirt will allow for a better result with the rust remover.

I agree.

[Mr. J]

Ok, so clean with simple green then run the evaporust a couple of days and then remove the radiator again and back flush it and flush the block?

[Dollar Bill]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

Ok, so clean with simple green then run the evaporust a couple of days and then remove the radiator again and back flush it and flush the block?

I wouldn't go to the trouble of R&R the radiator at this point but it is a good idea to isolate and back flush the radiator and block separately.

You will need to fabricate a couple of adapters from test fittings. It's also extremely helpful to incorporate an air hose connection during the back flush. Macgyver your adapters as appropriate.

Adapter Fabrication


To back flush the radiator, remove the radiator hoses and connect the adapters to the upper and lower radiator nipples. Connect a garden hose (with air if possible) to the bottom nipple and run water though the radiator backwards to the normal flow.

For the block, install your garden hose adapter to the water outlet on top of the head - Again, use air blasts as it really loosens up a lot of sediment.

[Mr. J]

OK so I finished flushing the radiator, not much rust mostly grease, I used blue wolf degreaser which worked like a charm, now it's running at about 165, but anyway today I got to looking and I noticed a number stamped right in front of the seat on the drivers side that says nk5209 and I was wondering what it meant any info would be appreciated

[RawhideKid]

That is an assembly plant code that says it was built in the Norfolk Va plant and was more than likely the 5,209th car to be assembled. The actual meaning of the number at this point in time is still speculation.

[wrndln]

The NK5209 is a body stamp, not the engine/frame stamping. NK stands for Norfolk, VA. 5209 is the number of bodies manufactured to date at the plant. There is a debate on whether the number is the number of bodies like your car or the total made to date. I tend to believe it is the style you have i.e. coupe, tudor, roadster, etc.
Rusty Nelson

[Mr. J]

That makes sense because my great grandfather bought it from another guy in Williamsburg va, pretty nifty to know thank you guys, the next issue I have number wise is that I've tried every way in the world to get the numbers off my block, but I just can't get anything, and I dread trying to get to the number on the frame and advice how to tackle getting to it?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I also believe the number is the count of the body style built, as my 9-27-28 Phaeton has TC476, and my 2-23-29 Tudor has TC17509.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

That makes sense because my great grandfather bought it from another guy in Williamsburg va, pretty nifty to know thank you guys, the next issue I have number wise is that I've tried every way in the world to get the numbers off my block, but I just can't get anything, and I dread trying to get to the number on the frame and advice how to tackle getting to it?

Not an easy task to lift the body.

I'm not going to get into legalities but if you do not have a number on the block now and you have your grandfathers paperwork showing the serial number, most seem to just stamp that number on the engine.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Mr. J

OK so I finished flushing the radiator, not much rust mostly grease, I used blue wolf degreaser which worked like a charm, now it's running at about 165, ....

Do you know where the grease comes from? It is a common, but wrong, practice to pump a lot a grease into the water pump. Just the slightest amount is needed.

[Mr. J]

Yeah I realized that when I first started on it, I gave it about half a pump, might very still been too much

[jhowes]

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Sounds like you are getting things under control but I would like to add that the cleaning of a cooling system like yours is a three step process.
1. remove grease and oils.
2. de rust as several have suggested.
3.Use a rust converter such as Evapo Rust.
Flushing in between as most have suggested to do on this forum.
Good luck, Jack

[Mr. J]

When I started out I put 1 gallon of blue wolf (local mining equipment degreaser) to 2 gallons of water and I let it soak for about 3 days, starting it everyday and letting it warm up to get it circulating, then drained it, back flushed, then I put thermocure in it and let it do its thing for about 3 days starting it and running it then drained it and back flushed filled with water drove up the driveway a few times then drained it again ( I done this about 3 times) and then mixed and topped off with antifreeze, anyone think of any ting I could've missed or done differently?

[RawhideKid]

Mr. J
Cleaning the cooling system with the radiator in the car only helps promote the loose rust from the engine to circulate and stick in the top and tubes of the radiator.

If you want to clean the system out, remove the radiator, lay it flat on the front, leave the cap on, pour a gallon of vinegar in and let it set for a couple days, you can agitate it by gently sloshing the fluid toward the top.

After a few days of soaking, drain the contents through a strainer of cheese cloth and see how much rust is removed. I then pressure blow water through from the bottom to the top.

The engine is another story. What I did to mine was, since I had to replace the head gasket, while it was off, I used a bore brush on the drill motor and swept the insides of the water jacket, specially around the #3 and #4 cylinders, then with a magnet, cleaned up the rust. If you use vinegar it will continue to eat away at the metal, so DO NOT use that in the engine. I suppose you could use evaporust or some such remover, but please do it while the radiator is removed from the car.

[Mr. J]

Thank you rawhidekid, when I take the motor out I'll put the vinegar in the radiator

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Hi MR J,


I have been in the same boat as you are in. Reviving an A that which in my case was my fathers, and sat for 50 years, and me not knowing much.


A suggestion is to find someone that know As to guide you. I would have done a lot of things differently if I had known what I was doing.


Hopefully the below does not discourage you.


Lubrication that has been sitting that long is a bad thing. Drain the oil pan, pull the pan and clean it out, and clean the pump oil screen. Oil sitting that long turns to sludge. Enough sludge will block your oil pump. Pull the valve access panels and clean that out. You may want to change out your other fluids - Differential, transmission. Make sure to hit all lube points and grease fittings, especially the generator and distributor oiling, or you will probably ruin their bearings and have to rebuild or replace them.


Run some diagnostics. Compression test, Napa Block Test (for exhaust gasses in the coolant, overheating could be head gasket, cracked head or bloc)- about $45 No use worrying about the radiator until you know the motor is OK.


Install an upper hose coolant filter to filter rust/scale from migrating into and plugging up the radiator. You can buy them, or simply use panty hose in the upper radiator. The filter needs to be checked extremely often when de-rusting a cooling system.


Remove the Motor coolant inlet and outlet, use a borescope to inspect the motor coolant passages for rust/scale. Also use a borescope through the radiator hose connections to inspect upper/lower tanks for rust scale and the core tube openings.


Inspect where head bolts down to the block. After running hot inspect for dampness, or for a white powdery substance - indicates a miss-torqued head or warped head, or bad head gasket.


Use an IR Temp Laser gun, only costs $30 - $40 . With the engine warm/hot/running, take readings horizontally across the radiator tubes, 1st at the top of the core - all tube readings should be within a few degrees, then repeat for the across the middle of the core, then about 2 inches above the bottom of the core. If some tubes are cool compared to others, you have partially of completely plugged tubes.


With engine hot running take temp readings from the passenger side, on the head, close to each spark plug - readings should be very close to each other. Take readings on the block just below the head, where each cylinder is, do both passenger and drivers side of the block. The passenger side readings should be the same, the drivers side should be the same. This could be a multitude of issues. If the back (cylinder 4) is hot could be rust scale, they develop rust/scale usually build up there 1st. If other places only the block test may tell you bad gasket, cracked head/block, bad valves. Pop off the head.


If you do the preceding you will have a fair idea of what is needed, and what shape the Motor and cooling system is in, and what needs attention 1st


I suspect you will probably end up pulling the head at some point to replace the head gaskets, mine was bad which I discovered after 2-3 years of not wanting to pull it, should have had it done right away. I've been told it is common for them to go bad sitting, or gaskets that old go bad within a couple thousand miles due to age.




You also likely have lots of rust/scale in the cooling system.


This is not overly expensive to do, does not take a ton of time, but can save much time in the long run.


If performing flushing/backflushing there is tons of info buried in the threads. Some like using white vinegar, some like Evaporust/thermocure/rust911 because they are not caustic and do not need a baking soda/water flush to neutralize the acid from vinegar.


Whatever you decide make sure you have a coolant filter in the upper radiator hose.




Hopefully others on the Barn agree, I am not an expert, but this is what I have gleaned and understand from my personal experience.


Hope this is helpful to you and others.


Wade

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

It appears Mr J hasn’t post since 9/17/17. Maybe he used the A for a rat rod.?

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

It appears Mr J hasn’t post since 9/17/17. Maybe he used the A for a rat rod.?

Yep, realized that when I posted.


Personally I do not like turning As that can be original runners into rat rods, however I do appreciate and like rat rods, another form of the hobby.


Since MR J/me have similar circumstances, am hoping for a response from him. Curious as to how he is doing, and what he has found.


Additionally get feedback from others if they disagree with my "alternate facts".


I completely agree with everything posted on this thread. Just took the approach to try to diagnose as much as possible and not shotgun things. I envy his skills. I have paid for lot of mechanical work due to my limitations.


I consider myself lucky, made so many mistakes listening to advice, wish I had known of this site in 2011 when I started my journey.


Thanks,
Wade

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I also believe the number is the count of the body style built, as my 9-27-28 Phaeton has TC476, and my 2-23-29 Tudor has TC17509.

I lean towards that thinking too. Our '28 Roadster was a September build at Twin Cities and seems like the body build code was 'TC527' I'm going from memory here. That makes sense because I'm SURE most body styles being built in Minnesota weren't necessarily open top cars. Brrrr. So I know, as big as Twin Cities was, they hadn't only built 526 Model A's up to September!!

Mr J welcome to Model A's and it sounds like you have a pretty neat one with a neat history. You have a good handle on the car already. The reason for all the grease in your cooling system is people pumping chassis grease, a lot of it, into the water pump zirk. Get some 'water pump grease' from the suppliers and a different grease gun for that purpose. Makes all the difference brudder.

Keep us posted on your Model A