Ford 385 Family Engine 370 429 and 460

[all american boy]

What got me going on this was seeing a 462 on Ebay.

Looked up 462 in Wikipedia and sure enough. MEL engine.

Somebody ought to jump on that. It has a C6 behind it.

Probably be scary fast and reliable in a compact Ford body.

Looking at MEL engine it said the successor was the 385 family.

Think that will work out a little better.

More of them around. I'll take a 370 if I run across one.

Used to have one in a 1980 Ford LN600 truck.

Stupid Impco propane gas conversion I always wanted to take off and

put it back to gasoline.

[bobss396]

If this is the old 462 found in Lincolns, it is hardly performance material. But they were powerful for their time and moved those 5000 pound cars pretty well.

I'm partial to the 429 Ford myself, had them in stock cars (claimer class) because nobody would ever put a claim against it. The right cam would wake it right up. The valves and ports were huge. The 1st one I had came from a '69 Mercury which even today is a preferred pre-smog engine. Then we played with stroked 460s, out to 496 cubes. These made gobs of power.

[V8 Bob]

The MELs were introduced in '58, with the 383 and 430 going into Mercs, 430 for Lincoln, and 410 into the Edsel. The tri-carb 400 hp 430 Super Marauder was a one year only option in the Mercury. The '59 NHRA top eliminator was a sling shot dragster running a blown 430, and 430s were very popular in drag, ski and off shore boats.
The 462 was a bored and stroked 430 and was used in Lincolns from '66 to early '68, until the new 460 replaced it.

[all american boy]

Thank you for the info!

That 462 on Ebay looks like a good deal.

Somebody would have a rarity. 3 year only engine.

I understand there weren't many hop up parts made for the MEL's.

Or at least now what ever was around is all bought up.

I can't move on it right now. Waah!

It's the one in Salt Lake city. So might not have major rust issues.

The MEL's are probably a little heavier than the 385 series.

Good part is I would run that C6 with just a few mod's.

Deeper tranny pan and that kind of thing.

Should hold up unless you tub the car and really start hooking up.

The guy says shipping for the 462 is $250.

That's a pretty good deal for a big block and a large automatic trans.

[rotorwrench]

MELs are kind of rare now days in there smaller form. There weren't used long after the early 60s. I had more luck with the FE myself. The 390 was a damn good all around motor for size & weight. The 406 wasn't bad either but more obscure than the 390 & 427/428. The 352 was a bit too small for that size/weight potential.

Those 385 series engines could be built into monsters but for street they were not fuel thrifty. They were guzzlers. Fuel injection would have helped them a lot in their production form but it didn't come along soon enough.

[all american boy]

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Thank you Rotorwrench

Got time to look around. Have to build storage to put whatever

engine it ends up to be in.

Some of the factors are:

Availability of hopup parts.

Power/weight (like you just pointed out Thanks)

Small block/big block. Still sitting on the fence about that.

Carbureted/computer. For a hobby I don't know about getting a computer

one.

That's about it.

That computer thing is a tough one.

Have to look into it more. See if there is a fun side to getting a computer

equipped kind.

[5851a]

http://ford-mel-engine.com/index.php Give you something to look at. Looks to me like there isn't much in the form of hop up, and parts seem to be fairly expensive. On squarebird sites it seems many swap in the 390 engines.

[rotorwrench]

Another good engine that is light weight for it's size is the 400 cid V8 engine (Ford 335 series). Ford wanted something lighter than the FE in the 400 cid range so they increased the deck height on the basic 351C block by near an inch and came up with the 400. It's a square motor with 4-inch bore by 4-inch stroke and still considered a small block. They didn't do much for heads though since most were 2V open chamber type but believe me they run good on the 2V heads. It would take a blower to make them run better with 4V heads. They had 3-inch mains like a 351W engine and were stout. My experience with the 400 was in a 1971 Ford Galaxie 500 and it would run like a raped ape with just a 2V carb. Lighter than an 390 FE and just as stout. A person doesn't want to over cam these engines. A mild cam, a .030" overbore, and a decent manifold with a 650 CFM 4V carb will get them to near 400 HP with 450Ft/Lbs TQ. Another plus is most of them were set up for the C6 and some have a double casting on the back that will fit small block transmission applications or C6 depending on which holes are drilled & tapped.

[willowbilly3]

What are you planning to put it in? You are talking the whole spectrum from Jurassic to computerized late model. If you are willing to go computerized, can't beat a Coyote or an Ecoboost V6 for power, fuel economy and dependability.

[all american boy]

Thank you Rotor Wrench and Willowbilly

'street they were not fuel thrifty.'

'What are you planning to put it in?

Trailer car. Vintage race car. So mileage is not an issue.

I need a bumper sticker that says 'I brake for interesting'.

The Ford 462 is pretty interesting. At least to me.

Largest MEL built. I was looking at a Ford city tractor with a 472 Heavy

Duty in it. Was ready to pull the trigger on it and then 'Oh no! Mr Bill!'

So a 462 would fix all that. It is a little on the heavy side though.

Plus you would be lucky to find even a cast iron 4 barrel intake for it today.

[all american boy]

Thank you 5851a!

Well you hit on something there.

Need another bumper sticker 'Pull-outs Accepted Here'.

In fact my last engine was a pull-out.

If your building a race car you can use just about anything.

If your looking for it to fit something that do narrow the field a bit.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by all american boy

Thank you 5851a!

Well you hit on something there.

Need another bumper sticker 'Pull-outs Accepted Here'.

In fact my last engine was a pull-out.

If your building a race car you can use just about anything.

If your looking for it to fit something that do narrow the field a bit.

Well, if you want a big Ford engine, look for a late-50's-60's F-800 or F-900 or so dump truck or semi tractor. They had a 534 cu. in. gas V-8. Big, heavy, and thirsty.

[5851a]

There is always the Ford GAA engine, would probably be better suited to a F-700 or larger. http://www.fordgaaengine.com/

[rotorwrench]

The super duty engines and tank engines are big but even more obscure than the MEL and too heavy for most racing. They never made any race stuff for them. The MELs had kind of a weird cylinder head. They were good torquers for the big Lincolns but their racing record for the 430 was short lived. Of the 385 series, the 429 was the most impressive. The stock 4th generation T-bird cars ran really well even with some of the smog stuff starting to show up. The boss 429 went a step further than the old 427 FE but NASCAR decided that they went too far.

The 427 side oiler FE engines are starting to come back due to reproduction parts but you won't find any pull outs on those. Ford started racing them when the fast back galaxie 500 hardtops came out in mid 1963 and in 1964. The Hemi engines had a hard time keeping up with them but those engines would cost a lot to build now days out of the new parts available for them. I doubt they would run well on pump gas.

The 400 and 351M (335 series)were common in cars and pickups and they share the same block so there may still be some pull outs of those. The 1971 400 was the only high compression version with flat top pistons but the Keith Black pistons that are available will run on pump gas. The flat tops were a little over 9:1 so pump gas might be lacking for them.

The 385 series 460 is common but the 429 might be a better choice.

What type of racing do you plan to do? Big blocks get into unlimited classes on roundy roundy. Straight line drag racing? Bracket racing?

[willowbilly3]

Then there is the Lincoln and truck 337 Y blocks. Plenty obscure but not as huge as a 462

[scicala]

all American boy,

If you look in the swap meet section of Ford Barn under "late V-8", there is a 460 Ford truck engine with E4OD transmission and all wiring complete with the computer. It's out of a '93 truck with 179K miles. Price listed is $500. Located in Bellville, Mich.
If your interested. Pretty sure it's a 4x2 auto, so correct for cars without the flange for a transfer case.

Sal

[all american boy]

Thank you Rotorwrench

'What type of racing do you plan to do?'

My parameters are pretty simple.

Tube frame. Starts and stops. Road course type.

Just want to build it. See what a motor will do without dragging a full sized

body around with it.

Also it's a warm up to building an over grown Super 7 'type' sportscar.

Looks like a Super 7 from far away but when you get up close everything is

bigger.

Nobody has done that so far. Haven't a clue why. It is such a simple

solution to going scary fast.

Small block and big block versions.

[all american boy]

Thank you Sciscala

Oh.Things have not gotten that cleaned out in California.

Should be able to turn up something here.

Sounds like a good deal for somebody in the Midwest there though.

Guess that guy thought of us when he pulled it out and saved it instead of

junking it.

[all american boy]

Thank you 5851a 40 Deluxe and Willowbilly

Some of those are a bit too heavy.

Be nice to clean up and put on a test stand and keep around as conversation

pieces. Have a beer on a Saturday afternoon with the guys and fire it up.

If a Lincoln Y block or MEL showed up I wouldn't say no.

Be a stock heavy engine in a race car engine but it would be interesting.

Kind of like the old Allards with the Cadillac and Chrysler early hemi's.

[rotorwrench]

The original mark III Cobras imported from AC and set up by Carroll Shelby's crew were big block 427 powered. I imagine they had to pull the engine to the change the plugs on those little cars. The frames were a lot beefier for them than for the earlier 260/289 small block Ford Cobras.

[all american boy]

Thank you Rotor wrench

Machine shop guy down the street worked for Carrol Shelby at the El Segundo

shop. Machined the front end parts that had to be made.

El Segundo shop was right after the Venice garage where the first couple

were made. He does the cutting on our race car frames now.

The race car frames we build are '4 tube'. They can have the second tube

'low' like a Dragmaster rail. Top tube can be 6-8" above the bottom tube.

Or the top tube can be 'high' like a Midget or Sprint Car. About 18" above

the bottom tube.

If you build it 'low' engine accessability comes out about the same as a T

roadster. High and it is still pretty damn good.

[LOWRIDER]

I have a 430 w/automatic trans you can have. Saved it from the crusher. Just stop by & pick it up.

[all american boy]

Thank you Lowrider!

Let me follow up with you about that in a bit.

Have to run out and do something right now.

We are on the 10 around Rancho Mirage and Palm Springs in California.

[all american boy]

How much did the 460 castings change during the production run?

How about the cranks and rods?

[rotorwrench]

Most changes on the 460 were with cylinder heads. Some are better than others and some are to be avoided altogether. There is a lot of info out there for folks that want to go the performance route. The early ones likely had higher compression pistons but that was due to the smog changes made after 1971.

[all american boy]

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Thank you Rotorwrench!

Okay. So any 460 is 'usable'.

Got the part about the heads might be low performance.

If I get one it's going to the machine shop PDQ.

How did the 302/5.0 change?

Can you still put on a 'point' type distributor on even the last one?

Will a carb manifold fit on all of them?

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by all american boy

How much did the 460 castings change during the production run?

How about the cranks and rods?

If you use a 460, make sure to use an early timing chain set (like '68 or'69). Somewhere in early or mid-'70's Ford retarded the cam timing (8 degrees, I think) by moving the keyway in the lower sprocket.

[all american boy]

Thanks 40 Deluxe!

That is a pretty good tip.

That would be job #1 when you're putting engine back together.

Isky cam won't be much good running retarded.

Looking at 302/5.0 too.

Whatever I run across first. That's the engine for me!

Not much of a shopper.

[willowbilly3]

There is a little more interchangeability on the 302. Specifically on heads and intakes. On an efi 460, a carb intake doesn't bolt up. They make spacers and even an adapter to bolt a carb right to the efi intake but there will still be no carb heat, if that's an issue. Neither efi block will have a place for a mechanical fuel pump. A points distributor can be used on the 5.0 but be aware of getting a distributor gear that is compatible with the cam or you could eat the gear off the cam.
I've been trying to figure out the best heads to swap onto my 429 because it has over 10 to one compression. It is a dizzying swirl of information on heads out there for the 385 series. I still don't know what would be best for me. Probably the D3VE if I could find them but getting all the right valve train components that play well together is another issue

[all american boy]

Thank you Willowbilly!

Looks like we found an engine!

Like the 292 but a big block with tranny so we're moving up in the world!

Good info on the 303/5.0 and the 460.

Well we're not looking anymore so this thread is solved.

Thank all of you for contributing!

[willowbilly3]

What is a "big block" 292?
Good info here on Y block heads. I'mm looking for a set of 113 heads to have all the basic pieces to build an engine.

http://www.ford-y-block.com/cylinderheadchart.htm

[all american boy]

Thank you Willowbilly!

'Like the 292 but a big block'

Old big block not a 385 Family one.

It's just fine with me.

It's available so we're all done looking.

[40 Deluxe]

Got any pictures/drawings of this project? Sounds interesting!

[all american boy]

Thank you 40 Deluxe!

Not yet.

Here's the Super Seven link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Seven

Just Americanize it. Make it strong enough for small blocks and big blocks.

Maybe put a rounded tail on it.

Think that is an English thing having that tray or open box in back.

[all american boy]

Okay. Maybe this is a better way of explaining it.

Like an Excalibur. Just the early Excalibur not the later ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_(automobile)

Except Excalibur has a ladder frame.

Good idea to build a 'high rail' tube frame. Like a sprint car.

Get some rigidity going there.

[lannysv]

I have found a 385 Series 370 bored to 429 that I am considering to transplant into my 1956 F-500 flatbed hauler. Looking for constructive comments before I pull the trigger, i.e. interchange and availability of parts between the 370, 429, and 460 (or other families), transmissions, pluses and minuses for this engine series, or any red flags that I should be aware of.

[KULTULZ]

THIS may help - https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/5...85-series.html

[lannysv]

Kultulz, thanks for your reply. I was a bit cocerned about the 370 block in the first place and the FTE page sort of cleared my concerns. I found a really nice 390 GT engine for my swap instead.