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Old 10-21-2014, 06:09 PM   #1
ericr
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Default Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

A recent post to a Newbie had repeated recommendations for Harbor Freight tools, which I understand are mainly China-made. But bashing of presumably-China-made Model "A" parts is constant in the Barn. It seems inconsistent to me...am I missing something?
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Harbor freight tools are throw away tools. If one has never used a grinder and after the job is done never will use one again, a 12 dollar tool with a replacement warranty is a great deal, use it throw it away. Compared to a several hundred dollar grinder that will just sit in a box until your heirs get rid of it.

The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

You nailed it Mike!
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Quote:
I see a big big difference.
.

Very agreed.

I also see a big difference between my Craftman/Sears socket set and the Snap-On tools I used to use at the farm.

Snap-On firmly adheres to the classic adage "The best tools are none too good." While the Sears tools hold more to "The best valued tools are none too good." While the Harbor Freight stuff holds to "The lowest price is the most cost effective price for homeowner use."

Were I to make my living using tools, it would be Snap-on all the way. As I don't have to count on my tools and cash conservation is a fact of life, I settle for less. Sometimes a LOT less.

I have tools of all kinds. Sadly, very little Snap-on. Mostly the Craftsman stuff for the stuff I count on - but a fair amount of pullers and slide hammers and the brute force stuff from HF.

I like Craftsman for the ease of purchase. While at the Farm, the Snap-on man came once every two weeks - rain or shine. Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.

Joe K
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:05 PM   #5
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I wonder if China sell's the same Crap to there people!!

On Harber Fright tool's , I was helping a friend in a nother State,
Picked up a grinder , to my surprise there was a second set of brushes in box !!
I Shortly found out why
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
.

Very agreed.

I also see a big difference between my Craftman/Sears socket set and the Snap-On tools I used to use at the farm.

Snap-On firmly adheres to the classic adage "The best tools are none too good." While the Sears tools hold more to "The best valued tools are none too good." While the Harbor Freight stuff holds to "The lowest price is the most cost effective price for homeowner use."

Were I to make my living using tools, it would be Snap-on all the way. As I don't have to count on my tools and cash conservation is a fact of life, I settle for less. Sometimes a LOT less.

I have tools of all kinds. Sadly, very little Snap-on. Mostly the Craftsman stuff for the stuff I count on - but a fair amount of pullers and slide hammers and the brute force stuff from HF.

I like Craftsman for the ease of purchase. While at the Farm, the Snap-on man came once every two weeks - rain or shine. Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.

Joe K
You checked Craftsman Tools lately. Notice some don't say Made in USA any more. That's because they are being Hecho en China...
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead View Post
You checked Craftsman Tools lately. Notice some don't say Made in USA any more. That's because they are being Hecho en China...
That's worth knowing. Glad I'm not stuck on them.

Thanks!
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Old 10-21-2014, 07:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I thankfully have my 64 year old SK Wayne socket and wrench set of my late Father. As a kid I would line up the wrenches in order as he worked on cars. This set works just as well just today as it I remember helping my Dad some 40 years ago. I have some craftsmen and a few snapon socket drivers but SK Wayne is the smoothest.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I'm not a HF fan by any stretch, but I would recommend their metal shears...cut through the (approx 18 gauge) sheet metal on my stock T dash and the '32 dash I grafted to it like butter. Very pleased with them - and the result.



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Old 10-21-2014, 08:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Some HF tool are not too bad. Some are crap. I have purchased some HF pneumatic tools that have served me well, like a small right angle sander, die grinder, etc and they were quite cheap, less than $10 each. I have only had one of the air tools go bad after a lot of very heavy use. I oil them every time I use them. I am surprised the HF pneumatic tools have lasted so long, considering their low prices. I am sure they were made in China. Other HF tools are poorly made. I agree that if you are using a tool very seldom and it is made fairly well, HF stuff is probably OK. I am not a big fan of made in China anything, but I guess they are here to stay.
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Old 10-21-2014, 08:45 PM   #11
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Talking Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
That's worth knowing. Glad I'm not stuck on them.

Thanks!
Joe K
And to further describe my disappointment (and in keeping with above) it is worth mentioning that I have given my son my dad's Craftsman socket set dating from 1938 (Dad was 16 years old when he was working on his 1928 Model A RPU with that set.)

But alas. I am not surprised that Hecho en China has raised it's ugly head even for something as American Apple Pie as Sears Craftsman tools.

The Chinese do see the market for what it is. And they respond to it.

A story. Traveling in my work, my wife would call me at points remote and complain about the old mower I owned. I'm the sort who gets an old mower at the dump and makes it work - and work - and work. Yes, they can be a challenge to start but somehow I make it happen. It's what I do.

Not so much my wife. Finally, dodging the complaint, I say to her "Go to Sears and pick out a new Craftsman mower," which she does.

Brand new. It starts on the 2nd pull - at first. But as the mowing season progresses, it gets harder and harder to start. Until finally around Labor Day even my herculean strength and Einsteinian wisdom about machinery could not make it work. Still under warranty, it went back. Sears replaces the mower in it's entirety and we were back to square one.

The following mowing season almost the exact same thing occurred. Easy start in the beginning but getting ever so much harder as the mowing season progressed. Even using Stable as Sears recommended did not help. By 4th of July the mower is inoperable. And now we're fully out of warranty.

Screw this, says I. Brand new mower now headed for the dump?

Reports on the Craftsman Mower on the Internet reveal that the EPA has gotten to Briggs & Stratton the motor manufacturer and the carburetors are no longer consumer adjustable. In fact, you don't adjust the carb at all - you buy a new one. Filled with a self adjusting choke and small passages, the cleanest of the new alcohol laden gas kills the carb in short order. It's a design made to die. But it satisfies the EPA.

Gotta love business/government collusion. Sure death to free enterprise or what?

But I have an out. Harbor Freight has "Predator" mower engines. So I gambled the $89 on sale and bought their vertical shaft mower engine. Heck I can hardly buy a new carb alone for the useless Craftsman mower for the same price. The reviews on the Internet were all glowing - the Predator engine is a Chinese clone of a Honda - and in fact parts will interchange with Honda Parts. (This apparently a big part of the Chinese business model - they make parts for you but you agree to let them compete against you directly under their own brand name.)

The Predator replacement engine for the Craftsman Briggs & Stratton on the old deck was straightforward. All the bolts line up, the cables match and are a direct connection similar to B&S. And best of all - everything works and works RIGHT. Even to a push button three times and pull twice to start. But it disappoints. It starts on the 1st pull.

And has ever since. Now at the end of a second year of mowing. No more complaints from the wife.

A lesson to be learned here. Don't buy AMERICAN CRAP. Don't support an obvious collusion when you see it. Base your purchase on the ability to get what YOU want - not what some pol or environmentalist or retailer or repairman wants.

Reward success in the marketplace by voting with your dollars.

Hard to always know what is best. The Internet helps you detect a charade in advance.

Do your research.

Joe K
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Last edited by Joe K; 10-21-2014 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I actually like some things from HF. I just stay away from their electric tools or anything like a puller. And of course a lot of it is pure junk.

I bought a set of box end wrenches for a carry along tool box. They have never given me any grief. They were made in India...

Comparison of 7/16" wrenches, left to right; Harbor Freight, Chinese Craftsman, USA Craftsman, Snap-On. Notice how HUGE the "New" Craftsman head is. I assume it's that big to make it as strong as the old one because they are using junk metal. I much prefer the HF.


Chinese Craftsman on the left, USA Craftsman on the right.

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Old 10-21-2014, 09:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I have always purchased the best tools either for home or work. I have bought tools only once. I am still using the Snap On and Craftsman tools that I purchased over forty years when I was an apprentice. I am glad that I bought the best, as I have not had to purchase them a second time.

I also go out of my way to locate and purchase tools that are made in this country. You now even have to look at some Snap On and Craftsman tools as they are made oversees.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

The Kobalt line from Lowe's look quite nice, but they are more expensive than you might expect.

My most recent HF purchase was their air-operated planishing hammer. I was surprised how well it worked, although I had to do a bit of filing of the air gun to get it to seat properly in the frame...

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Old 10-21-2014, 09:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

i have never had a problem with their stuff and the price is right and believe me I have a lot.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Personally. You never know what you'll get.

Wrenches? Ya... no thanks.
Wheel casters... Yes
2 ton press... Okay works great (simple construction).
Engine leveler... Rebought a good one as the cheap one binded up and was useless and dangerous.
Septic auger... Broke the first time i used it.
5 dollar paint gun... Worked great

I'm a semi proud owner of a hf blast cabinet that was given to me for free. Hmmm. Leaks like a siv and lighting sucks. Fixable and Happy to have it.

Some tools are fine if you spend the time fixing them before you use them.

But would I put any of that on my car, early or late ford? Nope.

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Old 10-21-2014, 09:50 PM   #17
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Being retired and having more projects than money I do buy HF tools. I have found to look up the tool on line and check the reviews, they seem to be an honest representation of the most items. Also I ask the clerks at HF about returns on particular items, they will tell me if they get allot of returns for that item. I am using a their Heavy Duty grinder now for over 2 years and have cut huge amounts of metal with it (the clerk said they never get them back) not bad for $19 lasted much longer than the one from Northern Tools that I paid allot more for. My 2 cents worth.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Why not try the recycle stores. There is one nearby that I check out weekly. Folks that are clearing out granpa's house dump off an amazing range of tools that the new generation cannot even begin to recognize. Sockets of all sizes at 25 cents to 50 cents each, of all kinds of provenance. I fish through the bins for the older domestic stuff and it is amazing what can be found. I have picked all kinds of original Ford and K.R Wilson tools. An unused set of Model A valve seat grinders for 75 cents - why not? I have found stuff of a level of quality that is no longer being produced anywhere. The recycle store only holds thing for a month or so before before sending it off to the scrappers. I wonder what China does with Ford chrome-vanadium steel these days?
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.
You might be surprised at how many Snap-On tools are now made in China. Not a majority by any means (probably not even 10%), but the percentage keeps increasing and it's enough to annoy some of us who have been long-time Snap-On customers.

Williams (Snap-On's second-tier industrial brand) is more and more Asian-made as well.

Same holds true for the other professional truck brands--Mac and Matco--both having considerably larger percentages of Asian-made tools than Snap-On does.

I think Cobalt at Lowes is almost all Asian-made.

Craftsman is probably 50/50 Asian/American now, if not more skewed toward the far east. It's been a while since I've been in a SearsMart store.

If you want quality American-made tools today at price-points well below Snap-On, the choices are Proto, Blackhawk (Stanley-Proto's second-tier brand), S-K, and Wright. All are either 100% American-made or very nearly so.

I'm not against Chinese tools simply because they're Chinese; I'm against poor-quality tools in general. I made my living and supported my family using quality American-made tools, and now, even in retirement, I refuse to use throw-away tools, or tools I have to "fix" before they're usable. And you can't simply blame the Chinese for the lack of quality. The average American consumer seems to think low price is more important than high quality, and the American companies that have shifted their production to China or Taiwan or India are just trying to meet consumer expectations.

Another reason I buy and use American is that I think it borders on sacrilege to use Asian tools on old American cars. No problem if others don't agree with that; it's a very personal opinion. Sometimes, instead of using my own 60s and 70s vintage tools, I use dad's 30s and 40s vintage Snap-On and Plomb (Proto) tools when working on my old cars and tractors, and that makes me think of him, and how he supported us with those tools, and that's pretty cool in itself. Maybe someday my kids will think of me that way too.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

As a professional, I use mostly Snap-on hand tools in my shop. I purchased my first Snap-on tools more than 60 years ago.

When I am working away from the shop, I have a good set of mostly old Craftsmen tools I take with me. The older Craftsman tools work well and have a good "feel" to them. I prefer them to the newer Craftsman.

I also have some old S K Wayne which are very good tools and also some older Proto which are also good tools.

I do the best I can to stay away from Harbor Freight. Definitely their hydraulic jacks.

JMO

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Old 10-21-2014, 10:42 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ursus View Post
Why not try the recycle stores. There is one nearby that I check out weekly. Folks that are clearing out granpa's house dump off an amazing range of tools that the new generation cannot even begin to recognize. Sockets of all sizes at 25 cents to 50 cents each, of all kinds of provenance. I fish through the bins for the older domestic stuff and it is amazing what can be found. I have picked all kinds of original Ford and K.R Wilson tools. An unused set of Model A valve seat grinders for 75 cents - why not? I have found stuff of a level of quality that is no longer being produced anywhere. The recycle store only holds thing for a month or so before before sending it off to the scrappers. I wonder what China does with Ford chrome-vanadium steel these days?
I need to move to Oregon. No stores like that around here. I rubber neck all garage sales that have a hint of tools and check pawn shops from time to time.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

You buy Harbor Fright tools for your friends and neighbors that like to borrow tools and forget to return them. And they are good to take to the junk yard to remove parts. If you forget some there, you aren't out much money.

I also made my living as a mechanic and bought quality American made tools.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursus View Post
Why not try the recycle stores. There is one nearby that I check out weekly. Folks that are clearing out granpa's house dump off an amazing range of tools that the new generation cannot even begin to recognize. Sockets of all sizes at 25 cents to 50 cents each, of all kinds of provenance. I fish through the bins for the older domestic stuff and it is amazing what can be found. I have picked all kinds of original Ford and K.R Wilson tools. An unused set of Model A valve seat grinders for 75 cents - why not? I have found stuff of a level of quality that is no longer being produced anywhere. The recycle store only holds thing for a month or so before before sending it off to the scrappers. I wonder what China does with Ford chrome-vanadium steel these days?
around me alot of the recycle stores want dang near the same price as new for name brand stuff. A few times they wanted more for very well used beatup dewalt grinders than they were new!

I will stick to my HF stuff. same no ask warranty as craftsman, works just as good if not better. Have broken several craftsman sockets but HF stuff keeps on going. Have put their deep well 1/2" drive impact sockets thru hell and back with no issues besides some of the labels as to what size they are worn off.

The only electric thing ive killed from harbor freight was that cheapo $10 angle grinder. Granted i was using WAY to long for way to thick of metal (cuttong the front crossmember out of my AA) and ended up melting the power switch... Been dropped numerous times over the years but still worked great. Replaced it with the same $10 wonder grinder.

At work nearly all of my tools are harbor freight. i do machine maintenance and use them daily. Nothings really given me grief, i have broken a few screwdriver tips off of flatheads using them as pry bars (my own fault) but the warranty still covered it.

Just because something says Made in USA doesn't mean a single part was made in usa - may have been put together here but every component came from mexico, china, or india....Or clothes - made in usa - shirt may have been stitched here but the material came from overseas.

if you want quality tools buy German made stuff.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Harbor Freight is a blessing for PO' FOLKS, like me!!! At least I can have a fairly wide array of equipment to work with in my retirement! I AIN'T RICH!!---So QUIT yo' PISSING!!
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:51 AM   #25
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I have thou my families business deal with china enough to know they are some of the sharpest business people going round
they do not make crap and send it around the world hoping it might sell
they have the world come to them where quality and quantity and cost are offered in many combinations
some of their quality stuff is among the best in the world
some of their crap is among the cheapest in the world
you get what you ask for
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:13 AM   #26
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The way I figure this talk about Chinese crap is there is no reason the Chinese can't make a good quality product, in fact they often do. If a US (or OZ or any other) company goes to a Chinese manufacturer with designs and specifications for their widgets and ties up a deal for them to make them, there is no reason the Chinese widget will be any worse than the local one. Same design, same tolerances, same materials etc but less cost. I see no problem with the local company putting their name on such a product but lookout for the apparently same product out of the same manufacturer under "Happy Dragon Smiling" brand.
Look same, not same.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

My tools come from all over the world. I have Australian, American, Italian, Chinese, Swedish, English, German etc. I look at value for money, what the tool is used for, and how many times I'll use it. I use cheap spanners if I'm going to modify them for a particular job like bending them to a particular shape. If I want longevity because it is a high use item, I'll look for better to the best quality. Unfortunately, over here in Australia, snap-on might as well be made from high grade unobtanium with the price they charge. I can get tools of the same quality but at a cheaper price.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:54 AM   #28
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I think a lot of the problem is like Synchro909 indicated. The Chinese "could" make very good quality products, but many or most American companies that operate in China demand "cheap", so the crap will sell well. I also agree, that most Americans want cheap items including me. However, it seems to me that American companies could require a little bit better quality at not much more cost, but what do I know. I am sure most of us oldies remember Japan. They were known in the 50's and 60's for producing JUNK. They decided to go for quality and look what happened. Now they probably still make some junk, but mostly known for high quality items, like cameras, autos, semiconductors, etc. Maybe some manufacturing will come back to the USA, but I wonder if the quality will ever again be like it was back in the day - I doubt it.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

This post is for Joe K regarding his lawn mower issues. Yes it's true the new mowers have no adjustment or choke capabilities. However if you always treat your gas with one of the "preservers" like Stable or SeaFoam you will fare much better. No, the mowers don't always start on the first or second pull like when their new but at least they do start. Today's formulation of gas when it becomes stale is a major part of the problem.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

[QUOTE=Joe K;966867

Reports on the Craftsman Mower on the Internet reveal that the EPA has gotten to Briggs & Stratton the motor manufacturer and the carburetors are no longer consumer adjustable. In fact, you don't adjust the carb at all - you buy a new one. Filled with a self adjusting choke and small passages, the cleanest of the new alcohol laden gas kills the carb in short order. It's a design made to die. But it satisfies the EPA.

Gotta love business/government collusion. Sure death to free enterprise or what?

Joe K[/QUOTE]


I've found this same thing happening with chain saws. They tell me any small gasoline motor today.

Pathetic.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:25 AM   #31
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I bought a chainsaw last year...it's adjustable.

While I don't believe that the EPA is perfect, the reason that the EPA was formed (under Nixon) was due to the pollution caused by industry and the effects on people's health.

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Old 10-22-2014, 08:29 AM   #32
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With regards to "junk"....many consumer products made in the past in the USA were made as cheap as they could to meet a price point for selling.

Radio's in the 1930's had many poor construction methods used, yet when WW2 occurred, the quality went way, way up from the same companies.

It's all about the consumer and what he\she will pay and the quality they want.

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Old 10-22-2014, 09:00 AM   #33
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I have many Harbor Freight tools - hand tools, electric tools and pneumatic tools - and I have never had a problem with any one of them. And the prices can't be beat. I am delighted that there is an HF store about three miles away.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:05 AM   #34
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With regards to "junk"....many consumer products made in the past in the USA were made as cheap as they could to meet a price point for selling.

Radio's in the 1930's had many poor construction methods used, yet when WW2 occurred, the quality went way, way up from the same companies.

It's all about the consumer and what he\she will pay and the quality they want.

Marc
Competition can kill products too. Think of the first Charmglow Grills - VERY high quality, very long lived, very well made - also rather expensive while Charmglow held the patent on their device.

After passing of patent protection EVERY maker of grills and lawn equipment started making grills in the Charmglow pattern. They all killed each other in cost cutting and cheapening the product to the point where one was lucky to get 2 years out of a grill before the rust took it over and/or it became non-functional.

Now, with the rise of consumer awareness, the quality is beginning to come back in names like Webber and Char-broil. But - so is the price.

But the grills are still available from WalMart at like $29.95 - should you choose a low cost solution.



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Old 10-22-2014, 09:20 AM   #35
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

China can and does make quality items. They make one of the best tractors, on the market.
The problem is, us Americans, who sell Chinese made goods, specify, to the Chinese manufactors, what price point these goods have to be made. Corners are cut, to meet these price points. A strict Quality Control would increase the price, also.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I broke some teeth off my new HF tap even using the proper tap drill for 5/16-18 in 1/8 cold rolled steel. You have to be gentle with those taps.
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:05 AM   #37
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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A recent post to a Newbie had repeated recommendations for Harbor Freight tools, which I understand are mainly China-made. But bashing of presumably-China-made Model "A" parts is constant in the Barn. It seems inconsistent to me...am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
...The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.
I believe this thread, altho interesting, has strayed a long ways from the original question...
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:19 PM   #38
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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A recent post to a Newbie had repeated recommendations for Harbor Freight tools, which I understand are mainly China-made. But bashing of presumably-China-made Model "A" parts is constant in the Barn. It seems inconsistent to me...am I missing something?
Ha ha ...funny ! Here's a riddle..how are they the same .... answer, both 'throw away' after one use
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Hey Joe,
Regarding craftsman tools. In decades past, I used to buy up what craftsman wrenches / tools when seen at sales...cheap. The company made decent sockets/wrenches and I used them hard ! NO more. It has gotten so bad, that the other day, I was looking for a socket of certain size. After locating the NEW craftsman socket with STAMPED SIZE ON IT, I crawled back under to do work..no easy task !
After multiple attempts to fit the socket failed, I crawled back out and made a comparison with an old same size snap on socket. Would anyone believe that the darn socket size is not what is stamped on it !!
A sad situation ,indeed ! I did not know that craftsman stuff is now made in china. If true, that explains two things...the second thing being that I will NEVER buy craftsman again
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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This once great country has become the world poster child for dumbing down and lowering standards, performance, and expectations, as clearly evidenced by many other posts and views on this thread.

Too many people in the US don't care about quality, only cost. I am thankful Henry Ford decided to build Model A's instead of Yugo's, and that our fore bearers had the intelligence and desire to understand the difference.
Thank you. Clearly one of the most enlightened posts that has been on here for ages. And, 'Too many people in the US don't care about quality, only cost.' I lived and worked in Germany for quite some time, and those people SUPPORT EACH OTHER and their country and do strive for quality products. I was very impressed with the German people and greatly admired them.

We are doomed unless something changes and quick, but I really feel it has gone too far we turned the corner a long time ago. And it is our own fault.
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:45 PM   #41
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I have used harbor freight tools with great success,I have a6 1/2 hp plate compactor model 66571 that cost with coupons about $450. It would have cost $75. Per day to rent one.I compacted 45 yards of fill and 25 tons of crushed stone it sat in the shed for 3 years unused. This summer I needed to compact my driveway after tearing down my old garage I drained the old gas refilled with new it started on the second pull. I also have a model 68150 demolition hammer that I demolished my cement block garage the floor was. Between 10" and 12" thick it performed flawlessly I highly recommend both.I also bought a makita 1" hammer drill I drilled 10, 5/8" holes 2" deep switched to a 7/8 bit it wouldn't drill come to find out it was made in China and past the 12 month warranty.I should have bought a harbor freight drill and eliminated the middle man.
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:12 PM   #42
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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Thank you. Clearly one of the most enlightened posts that has been on here for ages. And, 'Too many people in the US don't care about quality, only cost.' I lived and worked in Germany for quite some time, and those people SUPPORT EACH OTHER and their country and do strive for quality products. I was very impressed with the German people and greatly admired them.

We are doomed unless something changes and quick, but I really feel it has gone too far we turned the corner a long time ago. And it is our own fault.
Right on!

I think many Craftsman tools have been made in China for at least 10 years. Wards and Penny's used to also sell quality tools years ago, and I still have some of their wrenches. Sure would like to turn the clock back to the 50's when we had lots of quality manufacturing in this country.
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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This post is for Joe K regarding his lawn mower issues. Yes it's true the new mowers have no adjustment or choke capabilities. However if you always treat your gas with one of the "preservers" like Stable or SeaFoam you will fare much better. No, the mowers don't always start on the first or second pull like when their new but at least they do start. Today's formulation of gas when it becomes stale is a major part of the problem.
A bit off topic but if you use av gas in your garden equipment you can leave it in the tank for 2 years without it going bad. Avoid getting it on your hands if possible. It has 4 cc of lead per gallon.

As far as tools go, I am filthy rich so I buy the best high priced tools available. They last forever.
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Old 10-22-2014, 02:19 PM   #44
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

One is China one is USA....Lionel & MTH.

Quality will be there....If you pay for it.

Same goes for the tools.

My variable speed cordless drills still work like new.


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Old 10-22-2014, 02:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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This post is for Joe K regarding his lawn mower issues. Yes it's true the new mowers have no adjustment or choke capabilities. However if you always treat your gas with one of the "preservers" like Stable or SeaFoam you will fare much better. No, the mowers don't always start on the first or second pull like when their new but at least they do start. Today's formulation of gas when it becomes stale is a major part of the problem.
Not to dispute, but that second lawnmower provided by Sears was treated it's entire short life using Stable BOUGHT AT SEARS. It never knew anything else.

And yes, Stable is an aid to prevent gumming. I have used and advocated it myself here on this board. But seemingly not enough aid in this case?

That mower engine is now residing comfortably at the dump.

No, the mowers don't always start on the first or second pull - And maybe not at all IF THEY'RE MADE IN USA and built to EPA DESIGN and burn EPA DESIGN SPEC FUEL.

And therein lies the REAL problem. We've sold our free enterprise to the most well armed consumer, instead of to marketplace demand.

Meanwhile I have my Predator - I may buy another one to sit on the shelf - before Uncle Sugar gets in the way?

Joe K
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Old 10-22-2014, 02:45 PM   #46
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Such a feeling of using my Dad's SK Wayne tools... I've know these tools at least 40 years... They work like brand new tools to this day...

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Old 10-22-2014, 02:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

The lawnmowers tend to have problems with the jets getting clogged with the alcohol fuel.

The need to go to a none adjustable carb is to reduce emissions. I have taken my share of lawnmowers out of the trash with one of two problems. The shear pin or clogged carb jets.

The new gas makes it worse as it tends to leave behind more residue when it evaporates out of the passages. I even had this problem with my 65 Mustang. The lawnmowers have the hair sized passages and takes very little to alter the flow. You just need to clear the jet with a very fine wire.

As far as HF tools, they have their place. While I have a lot of Snap On, the HF tools have done well for the times I needed a special tool for a one off project. You have to know what you need to do with the tool. You can not beat some of the free bees and the 20% off coupon. The LED flashlights for free do fine once you put real batteries in them. A few of the digital multimeters for free are great to leave around the work areas and tell you basic troubleshooting info.
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Old 10-22-2014, 03:58 PM   #48
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I use Craftsman in my garage, but I keep Chinese in my cars, because I figure there is a higher liklihood I will misplace or forget a tool on the road, and a greater chance tools will be stolen out of my car than from my garage. I also have 3 or 4 sets of Chinese 7/16, 1/2, and 9/16 open end and/or box wrenches in the garage because those are the ones I use most often and am constantly setting down and misplacing. I have a serious infestation in my garage of tool hiding gremlins who will snatch the very tool I'm using and hide it as soon as I turn my back. It's easier to go get another wrench from the toolbox than to wait for the gremlin to put the tool back exactly where I last saw it. Henry and Purdy, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:20 PM   #49
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Ok it's time to define......TOOLS.


Tools Explained
DRILL PRESS: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, denting the freshly-painted project which you had carefully set in the corner where nothing could get to it.

WIRE WHEEL: Cleans paint off bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light . Also removes fingerprints and hard-earned calluses from fingers in about the time it takes you to say, 'Oh sh--!'

SKIL SAW: A portable cutting tool used to make studs too short.

PLIERS: Used to round off bolt heads. Sometimes used in the creation of blood-blisters.

BELT SANDER: An electric sanding tool commonly used to convert minor touch-up jobs into major refinishing jobs.

HACKSAW: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle... It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes.

VISE-GRIPS: Generally used after pliers to completely round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand.

OXYACETYLENE TORCH: Used almost entirely for lighting various flammable objects in your shop on fire. Also handy for igniting the grease inside the wheel hub out of which you want to remove a bearing race.

TABLE SAW: A large stationary power tool commonly used to launch wood projectiles for testing wall integrity.

HYDRAULIC FLOOR JACK: Used for lowering an automobile to the ground after you have installed your new brake shoes , trapping the jack handle firmly under the bumper.

BAND SAW: A large stationary power saw primarily used by most shops to cut good aluminum sheet into smaller pieces that more easily fit into the trash can after you cut on the inside of the line instead of the outside edge.

TWO-TON ENGINE HOIST: A tool for testing the maximum tensile strength of everything you forgot to disconnect.

PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER: Normally used to stab the vacuum seals under lids or for opening old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splashing oil on your shirt; but can also be used, as the name implies, to strip out Phillips screw heads.

STRAIGHT SCREWDRIVER: A tool for opening paint cans.. Sometimes used to convert common slotted screws into non-removable screws and butchering your palms.

PRY BAR: A tool used to crumple the metal surrounding that clip or bracket you needed to remove in order to replace a 50 cent part.

HOSE CUTTER: A tool used to make hoses too short.

HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

UTILITY KNIFE: Used to open and slice through the contents of cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well on contents such as seats, vinyl records, liquids in plastic bottles, collector magazines, refund checks, and rubber or plastic parts. Especially useful for slicing work clothes, but only while in use.

SON-OF-A-BITCH TOOL: (A personal favorite!) Any handy tool that you grab and throw across the garage while yelling 'Son of a BITCH!' at the top of your lungs. It is also, most often, the next tool that you will need.

Bob
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:16 PM   #50
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

we buy the best also
here is one of my guys new 21,000. tool box...
now i want one bigger
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:52 PM   #51
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here is one of my guys new 21,000. tool box...
Yeah! Complete with bunk bed, closet and dresser.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:36 PM   #52
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we buy the best also
here is one of my guys new 21,000. tool box...
now i want one bigger
That is not a tool box, it is a zip code.....lol
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:01 PM   #53
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Ray, you must be my twin.

Mitch, if your employee can afford a $21,000 tool box, I need to go to work for you.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:42 PM   #54
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$21000 for a toolbox is foolish.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:43 PM   #55
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Ray, you must be my twin.

Mitch, if your employee can afford a $21,000 tool box, I need to go to work for you.
Tool guy will be visiting regularly for his payment?

It is interesting talking to the tool guys. They have guys all over that owe them money. The stories that they can tell. One of our A and P mechanics and a machinest used to be a Snap On guy.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:54 PM   #56
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Thanks bob. I needed that. Too funny!
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Old 10-22-2014, 10:42 PM   #57
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A few of the digital multimeters for free are great to leave around the work areas and tell you basic troubleshooting info.
heh i have a few of them myself. they do work ok. you arent doing any precision measuring but if you need to know if somethings shorted or need to see where you have power they work just fine. I have one in my travel tool box along with most of my other HF tools. I figure if it gets stolen or something im not out much... Cheap pliers are better than no pliers when trying to do a roadside repair...

ive had a few of those extremely cheap box end wrenches come in real handy. I mean the cheap cheap ones that look like flattened beer cans spray painted silver BUT they do have a hex stamped in the box part not a 12 point so you can REALLY get some leverage with them on rounded bolts! usually their thinner too and have bailed me out of a narrow situation before.
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Old 10-23-2014, 07:43 PM   #58
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Holy Cow, that tool box is bigger than my car!
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Old 10-23-2014, 08:41 PM   #59
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Bring back the SK !!! still have 3/8 '' and 1/4 '' set from when i was a kid.abt 45 yrs now, Love them.
Do have 4 Craftsman ratchets to bring back. JUNK !!!Nuckle busters when they slip
and were never abused like the SK's.
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Old 10-23-2014, 09:08 PM   #60
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Industrial industries in China are fully capable of making quality products. They manufacture many of the components that go into a Boeing aircraft and many American built cars. The reason there are so many poor quality China made parts at places like Harbor Freight and many Model A suppliers is because the customer ordered it that way.

Places like India, Argentina, and Taiwan may be a different story.

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Old 10-23-2014, 10:00 PM   #61
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Harbor freight warrantees their tools and also offers extended warranty. Most things are made in China now any way. Faulty tools or products can be purchased any where. As long as the product is in warranty Harbor freight will stand behind it. The Tools are not Craftsman or Snap On but neither is the price.
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Old 10-23-2014, 10:41 PM   #62
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And so are Snap on Tools.
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Old 10-23-2014, 10:54 PM   #63
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I am still using the open end set my Dad used on his 29 Sport Coupe During WWII Era. They are "Dunlap" and were "Sears and Roebuck" second brand line to "Craftsman" Their Best quality line. been using them since I started working and riding on the Little Doodle-Bug motor scooter he bought to get to work on after he sold his Sport Coupe....
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Old 10-23-2014, 11:45 PM   #64
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Bring back the SK !!! still have 3/8 '' and 1/4 '' set from when i was a kid.abt 45 yrs now, Love them.
Do have 4 Craftsman ratchets to bring back. JUNK !!!Nuckle busters when they slip
and were never abused like the SK's.
Yep, I've had Craftsman ratchets go bad with very little use. They sure aren't what they used to be in the 60's and 70's. Now they will only exchange the head ratchet part rather than the complete wrench.

I was looking at another brand American made used ratchet I wanted to buy the other day. As I turned it through the clicks, I could feel it skip a few, so I passed on it.
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Old 10-23-2014, 11:54 PM   #65
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Dads old Craftsman Ratchet does not have a reversing lever, turn wrench over and push the 1/2 inch driver through to opposite side and go after it? Still working since the 30's.."FORGED IN THE U.S.A." still works on 29 Sport Coupe!
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Old 10-24-2014, 07:26 AM   #66
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I am currently using Harbor Freight tools to restore a Model A, and none have broken yet. Many of Harbor Freight's hand tools have a lifetime replacement guarantee.

All of the negative posts are the same old story that was once said about Japan.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:02 AM   #67
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Manufacturing is starting to return to the USA. As soon as it gets more costly to make things abroad and ship them here there will be no reason for business to continue to import. The question is will we still be able to manufacture here? The EPA is doing it's part to curtail manufacturing because it's "dirty and pollutes the air". We seem to have a penchant for shooting ourselves in the foot......
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:58 AM   #68
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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All of the negative posts are the same old story that was once said about Japan.
Not necessarily. There are differences and other reasons why some of us choose to avoid such tools and other products. Most of those things aren't allowed discussion topics here, not that any of it would change anyone's opinion, because we're all going to do or buy whatever we want.

One of my reasons, which can be discussed, is that I prefer older products.

The vehicles in our "fleet" average 59+ years old, except for our 2 daily drivers. One of the daily drivers is 15 years old, so it isn't particularly new either. Our choice has been to not conform to the mentality of the current "throw-away society."

Most of my hand tools are from the 1940s-70s and will likely still be around 40 to 70 years from now, because their quality is that good. Some of my power tools date from the 1970s and even earlier. My table saw was made in 1951 and will still outperform any table saw of similar size on the market today. All of those things will still be going years from now, as long as I, or my heirs, continue to take care of them and don't abuse them.

Let me know in 40 to 70 years how many of your 40 to 70 year old Harbor Freight tools are still working.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:11 AM   #69
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Yep, I've had Craftsman ratchets go bad with very little use. They sure aren't what they used to be in the 60's and 70's. Now they will only exchange the head ratchet part rather than the complete wrench.

I was looking at another brand American made used ratchet I wanted to buy the other day. As I turned it through the clicks, I could feel it skip a few, so I passed on it.

Looking at my Dad's SK-Wayne set, they are very $$$$ but appears just like what I have in two different sets plus extras... granger.com sells them.. I'd guess I'd spend $3k-$4 on the set of my Dad's today... I have a 20 years old small socket set I carry in my car which are Craftsmen -they are very good as well.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:39 AM   #70
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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Looking at my Dad's SK-Wayne set, they are very $$$$ but appears just like what I have in two different sets plus extras... granger.com sells them.. I'd guess I'd spend $3k-$4 on the set of my Dad's today...
Grainger prices are generally pretty high.

You can get S-K tools from Epstein's (harryepstein.com) for considerably less.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:51 AM   #71
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

The world's highest corporate tax rate (going to 39%) makes new manufacturing in the USA absurd. The high corporate tax rate is driving existing manufacturing overseas.
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:22 AM   #72
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Grainger prices are generally pretty high.

You can get S-K tools from Epstein's (harryepstein.com) for considerably less.
Yep, I learned my lesson yesterday when I went to Grainger for two brass fittings for my electric fuel pump. 3/8" male pipe, 90* and 1/4" compression, and the price for 2 pieces was $41.18. Today I looked on ebay and found a surplus store selling new brass fittings 7 fittings for $9 with free shipping.
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:26 AM   #73
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

Graingers was wholesale in the not too long ago but have become Retail Plus as of late, and as you say folks are finding out the hard way about their change.
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:43 AM   #74
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Hey Bob, you make a good point, whatever the EPA can't do to curtail manufacturing here, the tax code will. This is just an indirect way to put the kibosh on "dirty and polluting" manufacturing.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:15 PM   #75
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Graingers was wholesale in the not too long ago but have become Retail Plus as of late, and as you say folks are finding out the hard way about their change.
Grainger has always been higher than wholesale pricing, except to high-volume customers, where their discounts range from 10% to 50% or more, depending on annual purchasing volume.

If you're a low volume account or a walk-in cash customer (they'll sell to anyone now), you get catalog list prices and no discount.

There are two advantages to having a Grainger account, in spite of their usual pricing:

1. If you need something "right now, this minute" that you won't be able to find at a hardware store or home improvement center, and are close enough to a Grainger store to do a will-call order. This mostly applies to service or manufacturing businesses, where time is of the essence.

2. If you want to actually see an item before buying, instead of buying sight-unseen online or mail order.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:20 PM   #76
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The world's highest corporate tax rate (going to 39%) makes new manufacturing in the USA absurd. The high corporate tax rate is driving existing manufacturing overseas.
Bob, as we're forbidden to speak certain 'things' on here, Google 'the demise of the American middle class' for the reason this is all happening.

Quite by design, been in the works for many many years...............
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:52 PM   #77
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Grainger has always been higher than wholesale pricing, except to high-volume customers, where their discounts range from 10% to 50% or more, depending on annual purchasing volume.

If you're a low volume account or a walk-in cash customer (they'll sell to anyone now), you get catalog list prices and no discount.

There are two advantages to having a Grainger account, in spite of their usual pricing:

1. If you need something "right now, this minute" that you won't be able to find at a hardware store or home improvement center, and are close enough to a Grainger store to do a will-call order. This mostly applies to service or manufacturing businesses, where time is of the essence.

2. If you want to actually see an item before buying, instead of buying sight-unseen online or mail order.
yea grainger does have or can get just about anything. I work for a rather large manufacturing machine repair company and we get an employee discount of 17%. Has come in useful many times!
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Old 10-25-2014, 09:11 PM   #78
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I wonder if China sell's the same Crap to there people!!

On Harber Fright tool's , I was helping a friend in a nother State,
Picked up a grinder , to my surprise there was a second set of brushes in box !!
I Shortly found out why
I spend a lot of time in China and can tell you that most Chineese don't have a clue about how to use a tool never mind what the quality is. What I find funny is that when the chineese visit the US they purchase a bunch of brandname stuff becuse they can be sure it is real instead of a knock off. As for me I love to buy knock off stuff in china. I get Rolex watches for $10 that work for few weeks and Tumi luggage that is Ok as long as I carry on.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:08 PM   #79
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

You order a 12.00 pizza for delivery. When it arrives you give the driver 15.00 and say thanks. You have them almost 30% tip and did not even blink an eye. Why convenience!

Grainger, and others, are very much like that pizza delivery, one stop shopping. No waiting for the parts, no hunting around, no time wasted. I'm not taking sides, some feel the extra money for this convenience is worth it and of course some don't think so.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:12 AM   #80
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

I bought one of their dual action polishers and it has worked just fine for a year now
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:21 PM   #81
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

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The world's highest corporate tax rate (going to 39%) makes new manufacturing in the USA absurd. The high corporate tax rate is driving existing manufacturing overseas.
Yup and corporations have never paid a dime in taxes. It is added to the cost of goods and just makes American goods cost more. The consumer pays all. Politicians love to have people believe corporations pay tax.
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:58 AM   #82
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I have many Harbor Freight tools,20 ton press,drill press,grinders,inline sander, sockets etc; no problems ever,price is right.
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:51 PM   #83
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at my last place of employment, we bought regularly at Grainger
their prices were easily double that of HD, Lowes, Sears, etc.

if you shop there regularly, money obviously has no meaning to you............
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:54 PM   #84
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I have many Harbor Freight tools,20 ton press,drill press,grinders,inline sander, sockets etc; no problems ever,price is right.
CONFESSIONAL time !
Yeah, I do shop at HB occasionally and am happy that there is a store close by. For example, yesterday, I needed an engine holder for my B block and for the recently purchased A/B engine holder/adaptor from Snyders.
So , off to Harbor Freight to examine equipment....that I may only use once !! Anyway, I found a 750 lb capacity engine stand for the whopping huge sum of ..........$46 USA..wait, I've also got a 20% off coupon AND a FREE headlamp.....AND the guy loaned me a cart to take the loot to my truck and offered to put it in my truck...whooa ALMOST embarrassed me and felt like getting away with ...good deal

BTW I also have a Grainger store real close by. My better half, bought me a 1 hp air compressor there almost 15 yrs ago. Yeah, I know, they say...'don't sell to public', but she is very persuasive and told of my birthday in a few days. I have used that poor one horse to sandblast the ugly duck from head to toe...and it keeps on working !! I'm saying it was made in America, to honestly to old to remember...for sure.
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:01 PM   #85
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How are there cabinet sand blasters? What is a good size?
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Old 10-29-2014, 03:40 PM   #86
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How are there cabinet sand blasters? What is a good size?
Yeah, salivated on a couple models, but there are few considerations before buying, that are not apparent ..until late !
For example, where to put/store, as large equipment. Do have large enough or any compressor ? Do have safety equipment,etc...on/on.
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Old 10-29-2014, 05:15 PM   #87
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at my last place of employment, we bought regularly at Grainger
their prices were easily double that of HD, Lowes, Sears, etc.

if you shop there regularly, money obviously has no meaning to you............
do you think they might have a sliding scale depending on who the customer is?
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:21 AM   #88
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I have bought HF stuff that I am pleased with. I have a bead roller I have used for years, but we all knew we would have to weld a stiffener on when we got them. Also my trailer winch is an aging Chicago Electric and has served me well. I don't abuse it and generally use a snatch block if it's an old truck with flat tires. Just 2 days ago I pulled the trigger on their Badlands 12,000 pounder with wireless remote.
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:09 AM   #89
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My 1500lb Wench from Chicago gave up the first time I pushed the button. Smoked for 10min with the snow blower hanging 3' in the air...at least the cable held.

Bob
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:02 AM   #90
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Harbor freight tools are throw away tools. If one has never used a grinder and after the job is done never will use one again, a 12 dollar tool with a replacement warranty is a great deal, use it throw it away. Compared to a several hundred dollar grinder that will just sit in a box until your heirs get rid of it.

The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.
Good common sense Mike !
You don't buy junk for commercial use and you don't buy commercial for a one timer !
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:21 AM   #91
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Politicians love to have people believe corporations pay tax.
It's called "fostering a sense of aggrievement" - a modus that education and media have been complicit in since the New Deal.

"Useful idiots" comes to mind.

If one can picture someone else as "advantaged", either by virtue their financial status, immunity from law, connection to the lawmakers, or simply by emphasis on size, then that picture can be used to manipulate a voter - and sway an election.



Certain political sects - no - ALL political sects do this regularly. Some more effectively than others.

Hence the tax structure of the US which is pictured generally as holding back the advantaged, but discourages internal investment/development and encourages investment overseas - all resultant from perceived aggrievement. And results in Harbor Freight being the Sears Roebuck of the 21st century - instead of Sears Roebuck themselves who can't even sell a decent lawnmower anymore.

But we're all citizens of the world now.

Sheesh.

I wonder what exactly my children will do for a living. NOT make things, that I can guarantee.

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Old 10-30-2014, 09:23 AM   #92
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My 1500lb Wench from Chicago gave up the first time I pushed the button. Smoked for 10min with the snow blower hanging 3' in the air...at least the cable held.

Bob
I like a guy who looks on the bright side.

BTW, my brother bought a cigarette lighter air compressor for his bike tires, and it also went up in smoke the first time he tried to use it.


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Old 10-30-2014, 09:42 AM   #93
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I was there just a few days ago to get some casters to make a couple engine roll carts.

A 20ft extension cord for $5. Wow that's a good deal... till I noticed it was rated for 10amp. and was 16g wire.

On the blast cab. The reviews are the lighting is poor and it leaks. I can tell you both are a fair assessment. The free one I have I still need to seal the cab and then add some lighting. Reason for the engine carts is to make room for the cab in the garage. They do take up some room....
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:07 AM   #94
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My 1500lb Wench from Chicago gave up the first time I pushed the button. Smoked for 10min with the snow blower hanging 3' in the air...at least the cable held.

Bob
1500# doesn't mean it can dead lift 1500#, it means it can roll 1500# up a 30 degree incline. Dead lift would only be a small fraction of 1500, obviously less than you asked of it.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:14 AM   #95
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On the blast cab. The reviews are the lighting is poor and it leaks. I can tell you both are a fair assessment. The free one I have I still need to seal the cab and then add some lighting. Reason for the engine carts is to make room for the cab in the garage. They do take up some room....
I have bought the smaller (cheaper) of the blast cabs - not yet set up. But I can understand the leaking aspect.

Leakage of a blast cab is ENTIRELY a function of the vacuum cleaner connected to it. If you use a blast cab without a vacuum aspect - you deserve what you get to clean up around the cab. For me it will be interesting to see if a Sears CRaftsman 5 hp 16 gallon shop vac (their largest currently) is enough to keep the dusting down.

As to the lighting - I saw that in the reviews. Shouldn't be a challenge to improve. Also IMHO, the view glass is entirely too large (read more expensive to replace the glass part when the glass gets frosted - one wants to "double layer" this with safety glass nearer the operator and common glass next to the blast)

Buy a pair of electricians gauntlet gloves to wear OVER the gloves in the cabinet. Object being to put abrasive wear on parts more easily replaced.

I hate it when you blow a hole through the thumb as these are wont to do. And I'm sure the HF gloves as they come are, er, minimal.

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Old 10-30-2014, 10:25 AM   #96
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Sorry... my 1500lb Wench actually calls herself a 500lb horst.

My bad....
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:27 AM   #97
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This one has a vac and hook up. But the medium just drops out the bottom of the cab through a seam. Thinking seam sealer on all the edges to prevent it. Good idea about the gloves. There are velcro screen protectors that are to protect the glass from being frosted. Kind of like dirt roundy-roundy helmet visors tear aways.

For me it's a project that is back burner'ed at this time.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:51 AM   #98
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[COLOR=black]


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i just got a coupon for a free one!
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:06 AM   #99
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Harbor freight fills a niche that's for sure. There are some gems there but for hand tools I like to buy U.S. made quality myself. That doesn't mean just because its U.S. made its quality and some of the stuff made in Taiwan for HF isn't actually pretty good, especially for the price! I take pride in many of the tools I buy though and some of that comes from knowing someone here built it. I'm a huge SK tools fan and also have some proto tools (many of which I inherited) and some U.S. made craftsman and a smattering of Snap-on. Sure in some peoples eyes I paid stupid money for some of my Snap-on and SK sockets and ratchets but I bought them for life and enjoy using them and keep dollars on our shore that way. Each to his own.

As for the blasting cabinet discussion:
This is one tool that has been on my bucket list to buy for quite a while. I probably won't be buying one too soon but when I do I think I'll spend some more money for a U.S. made cabinet that seals better, has better lighting, and a better gun and all around setup.

The HF cabinet is a decent value as long as you are aware of the limitations and potential upgrades you can do to it. I got an education learning about dust separators, vacuum setups and regulators that are basically an essential component of a good blasting cabinet setup which are not included with the HF blasting cabinet. Fordbarn's sister website garagejournal.com has an excellent thread about how to upgrade a HF cabinet and highlights where some of the value lies and the limitations of the HF cabinet. After reading the thread and looking at some of the links provided I think when the time comes I'll spend more and buy a better quality starting point that is U.S. made but my mind could change on that subject too but that's where my thinking is right now. Here is a link to that article: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...last&showall=1

.
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:07 PM   #100
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BOY ! bitch/bitch/BITCH... Don't you just get SICK of the woooh is me poeboy blue haired bs , regarding 'one time use' tool bs ! So, what ever happened to good ole yankee engine nuity..huh ? You'd think that you had to 'walk 10 mile thru knee deep snow/rain, then pay huge $..and then walk home with wet freezing feet...for onetime use ! Get up, get out and make something

NOT being able to afford the HB blaster and/or the engine holder, years ago set up a blaster and made an A/B engine holder. The blaster takes advantage to the best available lighting tech and recycling advantages ! Ok, MAYBE leaks a bit. But, hey this panhard clay ground needs amendment and lots of it ! Then the engine holder is recycled cast of wood from wasteful neighbors constant throwaway stuff and includes the latest antique bed casters..which admittedly are a little small...but FREE,eh !

Ok, let the nugatory comments begin ...about how you have no time or talent to make such good stuff, etc...ad noseum
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:34 PM   #101
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BOY ! bitch/bitch/BITCH... Don't you just get SICK of the woooh is me poeboy blue haired bs , regarding 'one time use' tool bs
and

Quote:
Harbor freight fills a niche that's for sure.
Just different niches.

The garage journal reference is worthy - thanks!

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Old 10-30-2014, 01:35 PM   #102
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Thanks for the link montanafordman.
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:59 PM   #103
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I like a guy who looks on the bright side.

BTW, my brother bought a cigarette lighter air compressor for his bike tires, and it also went up in smoke the first time he tried to use it.


It's fun to zap flies with their electronic fly swatters.
Hey Tom,
Hm, what a coincidence, put one to use on a very recent outdoors/camping trip. Best in the world to use on meateater/yellowjackets ! I bought this many years ago in...Alaska ! I'll have to say that it is not HF , but built to last , as those squitos in Alaska are numerous/huge. Anyway , not used for years, until this trip. A buddy made the 'mistake' of messing with it , after I showed him how it worded. He couldn't believe that the battery(s) would work after sitting half dozen years. Yup, he put his finger against and yelped like one of the nearby coyotes.. within a millisecond.
But, he's one of those who has to put finger in wound to believe ,eh
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:04 PM   #104
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Default Re: Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

BTW, my brother bought a cigarette lighter air compressor for his bike tires, and it also went up in smoke the first time he tried to use it.

just bought one 2 weeks ago and it works great!
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Old 10-31-2014, 10:48 PM   #105
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Remember (well you OLD guys might) when we used to trash 'Cheap Jap Junk". Well, now, 40 or so years later, Japan is the epitomy of extreme quality, forcing the American slackers to beef up their own quality standards.

Ofcourse there is a bunch of years in between the junk and the quality. Just how well China will fare is any ones guess. Mean while, even though China is working hard to displace American on a number of fronts, we Americans will always continue to lean toward the cheaper 'price point'. China will continue to thrive and we will continue to bitch (and keep buying the 'junk').
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:58 AM   #106
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I just thought I would add my 2¢ to the HF bashing. I bought one of their new collapsible engine hoists a couple of years back. I used it twice the first year, thats a total of about going up and down 4 or 5 times. I got it back out this past summer to lift an old Desoto bare engine block and the thing would not go up past 90° then it would leak down and not pump at all. Four times and its shot. Now you can move the ram in and out with your hand. Some quality. I would fix it but I don't trust it. Think I will try to find a good American made hydraulic cylinder for the framework.
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:55 AM   #107
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28RPU, have you checked the oil level? I've read that cylinders should always be stored with the cylinder fully in and the valve closed.

Try the oil level first, but as you say, it might be junk.
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:53 PM   #108
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Yes Tom, I checked that and stored it upright with the ram in and valve closed.
Its junk.
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:44 PM   #109
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Don't bash the Chinese they can and will if asked make tools of superb quality. However if a US company goes to them and says I want 100,000 grinders landed in the US at 5 bucks a pop they will do that as well-quality won't be good and they know that as does the US importer but is prepared to accept this as enough of us will buy the junk for them to make a large profit .The only way to change things is not to buy the junk tools. The importer won't make any money and will import better tools next time . The down side is that they will be more expensive!
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Old 11-02-2014, 08:25 AM   #110
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Don't bash the Chinese they can and will if asked make tools of superb quality. However if a US company goes to them and says I want 100,000 grinders landed in the US at 5 bucks a pop they will do that as well-quality won't be good and they know that as does the US importer but is prepared to accept this as enough of us will buy the junk for them to make a large profit .The only way to change things is not to buy the junk tools. The importer won't make any money and will import better tools next time . The down side is that they will be more expensive!
I have heard this before but have yet to see any examples of well made Chinese tools. Do you know where I could see a sample of such an animal?
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:23 PM   #111
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Milwaukee Tools are currently made in China. Some people consider them well-made.

Marc
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:50 PM   #112
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I have heard this before but have yet to see any examples of well made Chinese tools. Do you know where I could see a sample of such an animal?
Stihl Chain Saw parts are currently made for Stihl in China - available at about 1/4 the stealership price on Ebay bought direct from China.

The Honda Clone "Predator" engine I have mentioned. Not mentioned is that Honda probably avails the manufacturer of Predator for themselves.

Wiedeke boiler tools are made now in China - and sell for about $750 for a boiler tube expander. Can be bought directly from the Chinese importer for about 1/4 the money on Ebay.

About 80 percent of the high pressure steam valves purchased for the Westinghouse AP1000 nuclear reactor are from a Chinese provider.

I'm sure the Chinese sources for these items factor in the fact that they don't have the "name cachet" that namebrand has. And the prices reflect this.

But give them time. And marketing...

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Old 11-02-2014, 07:04 PM   #113
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Stihl Chain Saw parts are currently made for Stihl in China - available at about 1/4 the stealership price on Ebay bought direct from China.

The Honda Clone "Predator" engine I have mentioned. Not mentioned is that Honda probably avails the manufacturer of Predator for themselves.

Wiedeke boiler tools are made now in China - and sell for about $750 for a boiler tube expander. Can be bought directly from the Chinese importer for about 1/4 the money on Ebay.

About 80 percent of the high pressure steam valves purchased for the Westinghouse AP1000 nuclear reactor are from a Chinese provider.

I'm sure the Chinese sources for these items factor in the fact that they don't have the "name cachet" that namebrand has. And the prices reflect this.

But give them time. And marketing...

Joe K
we have no easy way of knowing exactly where the non-USA made Model A parts come from....is it China, Korea, or where. We are assuming China, maybe that is correct. If they are, why don't they have the quality of Stihl, Honda, Westinghouse nuclear reactor valves, etc.?
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:14 PM   #114
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we have no easy way of knowing exactly where the non-USA made Model A parts come from....is it China, Korea, or where. We are assuming China, maybe that is correct. If they are, why don't they have the quality of Stihl, Honda, Westinghouse nuclear reactor valves, etc.?
I think because they don't have the name brand impetus (and quality assurance overheads) that go with making quality.

ANd otherwise make the cheapest crap (thinking those CC pickup rubber door straps here) that the market will accept.

Wouldn't it be interesting for Ford to take all their treasured/protected drawings for Model A components and go to China and get quotes - so Ford could make a re-entry into the parts market/support for historical product?

Well, they're hugging the drawings close to their legal chest for some reason, aren't they?

Yunno. I wouldn't mind seeing that one bit.

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Old 11-02-2014, 07:31 PM   #115
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I spend a lot of time in China and can tell you that most Chineese don't have a clue about how to use a tool never mind what the quality is. What I find funny is that when the chineese visit the US they purchase a bunch of brandname stuff becuse they can be sure it is real instead of a knock off. As for me I love to buy knock off stuff in china. I get Rolex watches for $10 that work for few weeks and Tumi luggage that is Ok as long as I carry on.
I'll bet they are taking the items to copy and sell back to us. A few years ago a large plumbing, mechanical, electrical supply house in the state would send Kohler, Delta and other American manufactured items overseas and have them change something so as to not be identical and they bought shiploads of product. One item comes to mind, a direct copy of a Delta kitchen faucet, you may have a Delta now on your kitchen sink. The one that has a ball on the end of the lever, well the one sold in many states has a wooden ball instead of the all metal handle of the Delta brand. And to top it off all of genuine Delta parts fit and work OK.
And while my mind is on this subject,(what little is left of it) our plumbing fittings and tubing has to meet Federal guidelines as to the amount of lead and cadmium that is allowed in the manufacture of these items and I would guess there were a lot of these foreign items that were off the scale.
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:18 PM   #116
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Don't bash the Chinese they can and will if asked make tools of superb quality. However if a US company goes to them and says I want 100,000 grinders landed in the US at 5 bucks a pop they will do that as well-quality won't be good and they know that as does the US importer but is prepared to accept this as enough of us will buy the junk for them to make a large profit .The only way to change things is not to buy the junk tools. The importer won't make any money and will import better tools next time . The down side is that they will be more expensive!
True. You get what you ask for.. Sometimes

I might be so bold to say that sometimes things fall off the truck and find their way to market. Ebay buck knives that cost $10 dollars shipped straight from china. Change the name and sell the same product... Starbucks or starbeaks... Apple stores or epple stores...

I think Henry had it right in the 20s. Higher pay to employees means they can buy the products you produce. But i'm sure there was always a few guys in the parking lot with a chevy!!! ha ha :]

Last edited by Tinker; 11-03-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:12 PM   #117
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I have heard this before but have yet to see any examples of well made Chinese tools. Do you know where I could see a sample of such an animal?
I don't think we know exactly where things come from. I suspect there are many high quality tools that are made in China (or part made in China and finished elsewhere) but this fact is not made obvious to the buyer for the very same reason we are having this discussion.

I have also brought some real junk with "Made in USA" stamped on it.
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