Harbor Freight Tools vs. China Bashing

[ericr]

A recent post to a Newbie had repeated recommendations for Harbor Freight tools, which I understand are mainly China-made. But bashing of presumably-China-made Model "A" parts is constant in the Barn. It seems inconsistent to me...am I missing something?

[Mike V. Florida]

Harbor freight tools are throw away tools. If one has never used a grinder and after the job is done never will use one again, a 12 dollar tool with a replacement warranty is a great deal, use it throw it away. Compared to a several hundred dollar grinder that will just sit in a box until your heirs get rid of it.

The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.

[Joe K]

I see a big big difference.

.

Very agreed.

I also see a big difference between my Craftman/Sears socket set and the Snap-On tools I used to use at the farm.

Snap-On firmly adheres to the classic adage "The best tools are none too good." While the Sears tools hold more to "The best valued tools are none too good." While the Harbor Freight stuff holds to "The lowest price is the most cost effective price for homeowner use."

Were I to make my living using tools, it would be Snap-on all the way. As I don't have to count on my tools and cash conservation is a fact of life, I settle for less. Sometimes a LOT less.

I have tools of all kinds. Sadly, very little Snap-on. Mostly the Craftsman stuff for the stuff I count on - but a fair amount of pullers and slide hammers and the brute force stuff from HF.

I like Craftsman for the ease of purchase. While at the Farm, the Snap-on man came once every two weeks - rain or shine. Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.

Joe K

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Joe K

.

Very agreed.

I also see a big difference between my Craftman/Sears socket set and the Snap-On tools I used to use at the farm.

Snap-On firmly adheres to the classic adage "The best tools are none too good." While the Sears tools hold more to "The best valued tools are none too good." While the Harbor Freight stuff holds to "The lowest price is the most cost effective price for homeowner use."

Were I to make my living using tools, it would be Snap-on all the way. As I don't have to count on my tools and cash conservation is a fact of life, I settle for less. Sometimes a LOT less.

I have tools of all kinds. Sadly, very little Snap-on. Mostly the Craftsman stuff for the stuff I count on - but a fair amount of pullers and slide hammers and the brute force stuff from HF.

I like Craftsman for the ease of purchase. While at the Farm, the Snap-on man came once every two weeks - rain or shine. Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.

Joe K

You checked Craftsman Tools lately. Notice some don't say Made in USA any more. That's because they are being Hecho en China...

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

You checked Craftsman Tools lately. Notice some don't say Made in USA any more. That's because they are being Hecho en China...

That's worth knowing. Glad I'm not stuck on them.

Thanks!
Joe K

[Joe K]

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Originally Posted by Joe K

That's worth knowing. Glad I'm not stuck on them.

Thanks!
Joe K

And to further describe my disappointment (and in keeping with above) it is worth mentioning that I have given my son my dad's Craftsman socket set dating from 1938 (Dad was 16 years old when he was working on his 1928 Model A RPU with that set.)

But alas. I am not surprised that Hecho en China has raised it's ugly head even for something as American Apple Pie as Sears Craftsman tools.

The Chinese do see the market for what it is. And they respond to it.

A story. Traveling in my work, my wife would call me at points remote and complain about the old mower I owned. I'm the sort who gets an old mower at the dump and makes it work - and work - and work. Yes, they can be a challenge to start but somehow I make it happen. It's what I do.

Not so much my wife. Finally, dodging the complaint, I say to her "Go to Sears and pick out a new Craftsman mower," which she does.

Brand new. It starts on the 2nd pull - at first. But as the mowing season progresses, it gets harder and harder to start. Until finally around Labor Day even my herculean strength and Einsteinian wisdom about machinery could not make it work. Still under warranty, it went back. Sears replaces the mower in it's entirety and we were back to square one.

The following mowing season almost the exact same thing occurred. Easy start in the beginning but getting ever so much harder as the mowing season progressed. Even using Stable as Sears recommended did not help. By 4th of July the mower is inoperable. And now we're fully out of warranty.

Screw this, says I. Brand new mower now headed for the dump?

Reports on the Craftsman Mower on the Internet reveal that the EPA has gotten to Briggs & Stratton the motor manufacturer and the carburetors are no longer consumer adjustable. In fact, you don't adjust the carb at all - you buy a new one. Filled with a self adjusting choke and small passages, the cleanest of the new alcohol laden gas kills the carb in short order. It's a design made to die. But it satisfies the EPA.

Gotta love business/government collusion. Sure death to free enterprise or what?

But I have an out. Harbor Freight has "Predator" mower engines. So I gambled the $89 on sale and bought their vertical shaft mower engine. Heck I can hardly buy a new carb alone for the useless Craftsman mower for the same price. The reviews on the Internet were all glowing - the Predator engine is a Chinese clone of a Honda - and in fact parts will interchange with Honda Parts. (This apparently a big part of the Chinese business model - they make parts for you but you agree to let them compete against you directly under their own brand name.)

The Predator replacement engine for the Craftsman Briggs & Stratton on the old deck was straightforward. All the bolts line up, the cables match and are a direct connection similar to B&S. And best of all - everything works and works RIGHT. Even to a push button three times and pull twice to start. But it disappoints. It starts on the 1st pull.

And has ever since. Now at the end of a second year of mowing. No more complaints from the wife.

A lesson to be learned here. Don't buy AMERICAN CRAP. Don't support an obvious collusion when you see it. Base your purchase on the ability to get what YOU want - not what some pol or environmentalist or retailer or repairman wants.

Reward success in the marketplace by voting with your dollars.

Hard to always know what is best. The Internet helps you detect a charade in advance.

Do your research.

Joe K

[mshmodela]

I thankfully have my 64 year old SK Wayne socket and wrench set of my late Father. As a kid I would line up the wrenches in order as he worked on cars. This set works just as well just today as it I remember helping my Dad some 40 years ago. I have some craftsmen and a few snapon socket drivers but SK Wayne is the smoothest.

[hardtimes]

Hey Joe,
Regarding craftsman tools. In decades past, I used to buy up what craftsman wrenches / tools when seen at sales...cheap. The company made decent sockets/wrenches and I used them hard ! NO more. It has gotten so bad, that the other day, I was looking for a socket of certain size. After locating the NEW craftsman socket with STAMPED SIZE ON IT, I crawled back under to do work..no easy task !
After multiple attempts to fit the socket failed, I crawled back out and made a comparison with an old same size snap on socket. Would anyone believe that the darn socket size is not what is stamped on it !!
A sad situation ,indeed ! I did not know that craftsman stuff is now made in china. If true, that explains two things...the second thing being that I will NEVER buy craftsman again

[Marvin/TN]

And so are Snap on Tools.

[triumphleroy]

I am still using the open end set my Dad used on his 29 Sport Coupe During WWII Era. They are "Dunlap" and were "Sears and Roebuck" second brand line to "Craftsman" Their Best quality line. been using them since I started working and riding on the Little Doodle-Bug motor scooter he bought to get to work on after he sold his Sport Coupe....

[45GPW]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Somehow, as a domestic tool user, I don't want to wait two weeks for my Snap-On guy to show up. Instead I can run over to Sears and (mostly) get a free socket to replace the one that split. (Although Sears is less well stocked than they used to be - Cobalt at Lowes is catching my eye.)

So truly, you get what you pay for. And no more clearly demonstrated than by comparing these three (or four) tool sources.

You might be surprised at how many Snap-On tools are now made in China. Not a majority by any means (probably not even 10%), but the percentage keeps increasing and it's enough to annoy some of us who have been long-time Snap-On customers.

Williams (Snap-On's second-tier industrial brand) is more and more Asian-made as well.

Same holds true for the other professional truck brands--Mac and Matco--both having considerably larger percentages of Asian-made tools than Snap-On does.

I think Cobalt at Lowes is almost all Asian-made.

Craftsman is probably 50/50 Asian/American now, if not more skewed toward the far east. It's been a while since I've been in a SearsMart store.

If you want quality American-made tools today at price-points well below Snap-On, the choices are Proto, Blackhawk (Stanley-Proto's second-tier brand), S-K, and Wright. All are either 100% American-made or very nearly so.

I'm not against Chinese tools simply because they're Chinese; I'm against poor-quality tools in general. I made my living and supported my family using quality American-made tools, and now, even in retirement, I refuse to use throw-away tools, or tools I have to "fix" before they're usable. And you can't simply blame the Chinese for the lack of quality. The average American consumer seems to think low price is more important than high quality, and the American companies that have shifted their production to China or Taiwan or India are just trying to meet consumer expectations.

Another reason I buy and use American is that I think it borders on sacrilege to use Asian tools on old American cars. No problem if others don't agree with that; it's a very personal opinion. Sometimes, instead of using my own 60s and 70s vintage tools, I use dad's 30s and 40s vintage Snap-On and Plomb (Proto) tools when working on my old cars and tractors, and that makes me think of him, and how he supported us with those tools, and that's pretty cool in itself. Maybe someday my kids will think of me that way too.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by ericr

A recent post to a Newbie had repeated recommendations for Harbor Freight tools, which I understand are mainly China-made. But bashing of presumably-China-made Model "A" parts is constant in the Barn. It seems inconsistent to me...am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

...The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.

I believe this thread, altho interesting, has strayed a long ways from the original question...

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Harbor freight tools are throw away tools. If one has never used a grinder and after the job is done never will use one again, a 12 dollar tool with a replacement warranty is a great deal, use it throw it away. Compared to a several hundred dollar grinder that will just sit in a box until your heirs get rid of it.

The parts that will be used and seen for many years in you A, should be of good quality that will last as long as the car.

I see a big big difference.

Good common sense Mike !
You don't buy junk for commercial use and you don't buy commercial for a one timer !
Wayne

[Russ/40]

You nailed it Mike!

[19ED30]

I wonder if China sell's the same Crap to there people!!

On Harber Fright tool's , I was helping a friend in a nother State,
Picked up a grinder , to my surprise there was a second set of brushes in box !!
I Shortly found out why

[nhusa]

Originally Posted by 19ED30

I wonder if China sell's the same Crap to there people!!

On Harber Fright tool's , I was helping a friend in a nother State,
Picked up a grinder , to my surprise there was a second set of brushes in box !!
I Shortly found out why

I spend a lot of time in China and can tell you that most Chineese don't have a clue about how to use a tool never mind what the quality is. What I find funny is that when the chineese visit the US they purchase a bunch of brandname stuff becuse they can be sure it is real instead of a knock off. As for me I love to buy knock off stuff in china. I get Rolex watches for $10 that work for few weeks and Tumi luggage that is Ok as long as I carry on.

[Russell in Tulsa]

Originally Posted by nhusa

I spend a lot of time in China and can tell you that most Chineese don't have a clue about how to use a tool never mind what the quality is. What I find funny is that when the chineese visit the US they purchase a bunch of brandname stuff becuse they can be sure it is real instead of a knock off. As for me I love to buy knock off stuff in china. I get Rolex watches for $10 that work for few weeks and Tumi luggage that is Ok as long as I carry on.

I'll bet they are taking the items to copy and sell back to us. A few years ago a large plumbing, mechanical, electrical supply house in the state would send Kohler, Delta and other American manufactured items overseas and have them change something so as to not be identical and they bought shiploads of product. One item comes to mind, a direct copy of a Delta kitchen faucet, you may have a Delta now on your kitchen sink. The one that has a ball on the end of the lever, well the one sold in many states has a wooden ball instead of the all metal handle of the Delta brand. And to top it off all of genuine Delta parts fit and work OK.
And while my mind is on this subject,(what little is left of it) our plumbing fittings and tubing has to meet Federal guidelines as to the amount of lead and cadmium that is allowed in the manufacture of these items and I would guess there were a lot of these foreign items that were off the scale.

[gwhite]

I'm not a HF fan by any stretch, but I would recommend their metal shears...cut through the (approx 18 gauge) sheet metal on my stock T dash and the '32 dash I grafted to it like butter. Very pleased with them - and the result.

[wrndln]

Some HF tool are not too bad. Some are crap. I have purchased some HF pneumatic tools that have served me well, like a small right angle sander, die grinder, etc and they were quite cheap, less than $10 each. I have only had one of the air tools go bad after a lot of very heavy use. I oil them every time I use them. I am surprised the HF pneumatic tools have lasted so long, considering their low prices. I am sure they were made in China. Other HF tools are poorly made. I agree that if you are using a tool very seldom and it is made fairly well, HF stuff is probably OK. I am not a big fan of made in China anything, but I guess they are here to stay.
Rusty Nelson

[Y-Blockhead]

I actually like some things from HF. I just stay away from their electric tools or anything like a puller. And of course a lot of it is pure junk.

I bought a set of box end wrenches for a carry along tool box. They have never given me any grief. They were made in India...

Comparison of 7/16" wrenches, left to right; Harbor Freight, Chinese Craftsman, USA Craftsman, Snap-On. Notice how HUGE the "New" Craftsman head is. I assume it's that big to make it as strong as the old one because they are using junk metal. I much prefer the HF.


Chinese Craftsman on the left, USA Craftsman on the right.