2 tooth, 31 box and mis-centered steering wheel

[Rip]

Driving straight, my 31 steering wheel is at 11 o'clock rather than 12 straight up. It has no slop to left but much to right going straight. Sector cover nuts tight as well as box to frame nuts. With wheels off ground and pitman disconnected from draglink: end play in steering shaft, proper mesh tween 2tooth sector and worm gear, end play in 2 tooth sector check out on physical push/pull and rotate tests.

I've learned to drive carefully with the wheel position and right slop BUUUUT would like to correct. Any thoughts appreciated.
Ps-stalling on stops has been resolved with timing, raising idle, etc. thanks.
Pps-air mix on zenith inop but engine running okay so putting off rebuilding carb.

[Patrick L.]

Have you tried adjusting the box as per the service bulletins. These adjustments need to be done in order and may be to be done a couple times.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Steering wheel could be centered, using an adjustable length drag link.
Bill Offcenter

[Joe K]

Probably caused by a bent front axle.

Check that the spring perches and kingpins are in line (co-planar)

Usually the problem is found that the passenger side wheel is found "back" (i.e. axle curled around the spring perch.)

Note your wheels CAN be in alignment even with a bent axle. Alignment has nothing to do with co-planar for the supports.

Most Model A axles are bent to some degree. VERY rare to find them straight. I have four front axles and all are bent to greater or lesser amounts. One of my tasks coming up is to use the BEAR alignment tool (a homebrew item for me) and straighten two of them.

Here is the tool applied to a Model T - you get the drift.



Joe K

[Keith True]

Are you going by spoke position when you mean center? The A wheel position is random,not centered like a modern car.That is why there are two keyways,if a spoke got in the way of the speedo,you could pull it off and use the next keyway.It made no difference where the spokes were,as long as you could see the speedo you were good.I believe it explains the repositioning thing in the service bulletins.

[Charlie Stephens]

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Any chance you are running a shortened pitman arm? If so, that could be your problem.

Charlie Stephens

[Rip]

I did tests per"two Tooth Steering Basics by Paul Modlin". It did not address a "centerization rivet" adjustment r test. Apparently has to be done thru hole drilled in frame or bent strong screwdriver. After researching I'm not even sure what that rivet adjustment does. Dumb I guess.

I incorrectly assumed the cross tie rod could be adjusted to center the wheel like I think I did years ago on something. If the wheel doesn't have to be centered vertically at 12 o'clock, then I have no slop to left going straight and 6+/-" right.

I would like to have less slop. I've been able to drive straight but requires attention and not fun. any further help would be appreciated.

[Rip]

I didn't know adjustable a were available and will check suppliers. Guess I'll chase that slop to right first. Thanks

[Rip]

Well that will ruin my day😥. The previous owner said he drove it all over. I see no wear on front tires and it drives straight for me (neglecting the slop to the right of course. At this time I'd rather chase something else than pull f/e apart. Thanks though. Care to offer another opinion possibility on the slop to right? At this point I'm not even sure. What test or adjustment to try..

[Rip]

Just checked and the right slop in wheel does not move the pitman arm..

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Rip

Well that will ruin my day😥. The previous owner said he drove it all over. I see no wear on front tires and it drives straight for me (neglecting the slop to the right of course. At this time I'd rather chase something else than pull f/e apart. Thanks though. Care to offer another opinion possibility on the slop to right? At this point I'm not even sure. What test or adjustment to try..

I'm not familiar with Paul Modlin's article, but, the service bulletins is the book to read and use. I'm not sure I'd drive your monster too far considering what you've said until the box is adjusted correctly.

[DougT]

Originally Posted by Rip

Just checked and the right slop in wheel does not move the pitman arm..

Have some wiggle the wheel while you get down and look. Probably a tie rod end or a wheel bearing.

[Rip]

Respectfully, Would that cause slop in one direction? If so ,I see Sydney's offers both and I'll call them for lengths.

[Rip]

Did that and doesn't no pitman movement mean problem is in box. Not meaning to be argumentative just trying to see/figure my next step.

[Mitch//pa]

With the car still how much FREE play do you have from left to right or right to left..??

If the sector shaft is not moving when you move the wheel freeplay then it's most likely in the box..

When you state that your driving and you have no play to the left only to the right that's confusing...

The centrilization adjustment centers the sector and worm teeth

[Rip]

Modlin article is in "model A basics" site and I do have Les Andrews red book. Can't find service bulletins except buy 500 pages..

[Rip]

Called snyders and I have standard ,not shortened pitman.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Rip

Care to offer another opinion possibility on the slop to right? At this point I'm not even sure. What test or adjustment to try..

most roads if not all have a certain degree of "crowning" to them to allow rain water to drain off instead of puddle. So your wheel is slightly cocked left due to worn out parts and your car naturally wants to curve down to the right this ever so slight sideways grade.


If your parked and turn the wheel left a revolution and right a revolution then recenter the wheel, how much free slop does the steering wheel have? ideally inch or less.

I agree, have someone else turn the wheel back and forth and see if you can see anything having slop (like tie rod moves but right tire does not sorta thing)

another thing to consider is over the years the tierods and pitman arms etc have taken a beating and may not be in spec in relation to the axle. The adjustable drag link is supposed to be the bandaid to correct for that.It wont fix your slop problem and could be potentially dangerous if the tierod pops off the spindle or worse yet the drag link off the pitman arm...

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Rip

Modlin article is in "model A basics" site and I do have Les Andrews red book. Can't find service bulletins except buy 500 pages..

Buy the full size book of Service Bulletins. Not that expensive and well worth the money.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Buy the full size book of Service Bulletins. Not that expensive and well worth the money.

Yep. Anyone the owns an 'A' should not be without these.

[Rip]

No slop right to left and 5-6" left to right.
Pitman arm and sector shaft not moving when moving steering wheel.
I'm at a loss on how to be explain the slop, sorry.
Still confused about centering sector and worm teeth. Thought mesh of the two gears was with the eccenteric adjusting stud on the upper right of the sector cover?
Anyway, thanks. Tomorrow I'm going to try everything over again. Stay tuned!

[Keith True]

Get the big paperbook version,not the pretty hardbound book.You can lay the big one down on the runningboard,hold it open with a couple of wrenches,and read as you go.6-1/2 inches is a lot of play.I'm not sure what you mean by play to the right,and not to the left.If you mean when you turn the wheel to the left,say one turn,and then have no play,then turn to the right of center one turn,and have a lot of play,then the adjustments are way out.Pay no attention to the position of the spokes,that means nothing.It is not a modern car,they now centralize the wheel itself by running the separate right and left tie rods in and out equally until the wheel is centered.The A doesn't do that.

[Mitch//pa]

I'm still lost like Keith on your play
Sometimes the box need to be rebuilt with new parts as the adjustments can only do so much

[Joe K]

The object of the Service bulletins adjustment is to minimize pitman arm motion at center and "equalize" the free motion at the ends of travel. If done right you should have ZERO pitman motion with the worm at middle point. (you can ALMOST feel the sector starting to gaul the worm at this point.)

The service bulletins addresses (first step) "centering" the action of the sector in relation to the worm. This done by the eccentric with locking bolt. It goes on (second step) to describe "testing" the pitman free motion at the ends of travel - and adjusting the riveted eccentric (with slot) to equalize this.

The problem with this second step is an adjustment here "screws up" your first step. Most people describe having to do repeated "readjustments" working back and forth to get both settings "optimal" - and then hope everything stays the same when the housing bolts are snugged up and compresses the gasket slightly.

This whole chasing your tail iterative technique is best done with the steering gear OUT of the car. LIKE the pictures in the Service Bulletins.

And while it is out, you can check the sector shaft/sector bushings for wear, which can give you a "free motion" of the steering wheel without any apparent motion of the pitman arm. Many take this opportunity to replace these bushings/shaft with new components, or upgrade to torrington needle bearings and attempt to save their old sector shaft. Both rebuild techniques have their advantages and disadvantages.

Gosh. Its too bad you're not making it work. But as others have said, read the Service Bulletins. Victor Page's The Ford Model A Car is a quick overview of the two tooth adjustment. Also some good discussion (and those pictures) at Bob Carabbio's instruction for installation of torrington bearings. http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/steering.htm



Joe K

[tinman080]

I repaired automotive suspensions for many years, and the first thing is to center your front wheels. Then turn your wheel lock to lock and count the turns on each side. They should be within an 1/8 of a turn to being equal. If not, the spindle could be bent on one side, the pitman arm could be bent, or the steering shaft itself could be twisted. Most times I had to change the box out because the shaft splines would twist in the box. This would ''preload'' the direction of steering into the steering, causing the steering wheel to be off in that direction. A lot of tie-rod adjustment could make up for it, but you would lose the full turning radius on one side. It would turn sharper on one side than the other. Another box was quickest and cheapest.

[katy]

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With the wheels straight ahead, watch the end of the sector shaft while you or a friend rocks the steering wheel back and forth to see if the shaft moves up and down or otherwise flops around. This will tell you if the SS and/or the bushings are worn.

[Rip]

My results of yesterday efforts---
In garage::::Tires off ground, draglink disconnected at pitman and visually tires straight ahead (didn't measure toe). Only slight tad of play in sector/worm mesh with fore and aft movement of pitman. Steering arm, kingpins, draglink,tierod have no looseness. Steering wheel has measured 1-1/2" slop each way, right and left slop from straightened tires.
When rocking tires at top and bottom (12 and 6 o'clock), very slight movement implying to me maybe improper torque (unsure what is correct number ) on wheel bearing. Forgot to spin tires to check if any brake drag.

Test drive::::now wondering about my driving technique....going straight I can physically center the steering wheel ( I remember wheel orientation was suggested as not important but feel better centered like newer cars) and have 1-1/2 " slop each to right and left (3" total) (I guess my original 5-6" slop was visual mental mistake&#128546 before affecting tire direction. In this straight ahead, centered steering wheel, a slight drift to right occurs possibly due to crowned road or tire with lowered pressure( misplaced 3 air pressure Gage's, so need to buy but "look" even😀. Found level parking area and noticed very little drift to right, Although I favor holding wheel to left to stop drift. But that and the 3" total slop still bother me. Shud it???
Thanks, Rip

[Patrick L.]

"But that and the 3" total slop still bother me. Shud it???
Thanks, Rip"
end quote



Yep, the 3" slop should. 3" isn't too bad, but, 1-1.5" is better. Once again, try adjusting it correctly.

[Joe K]

My money is on the sector bushings. Go sector bushings.

And maybe a bunch of less work on the remainder of the steering.

Joe K

[RonC]

Your box is way out of adjustment. With the pitman arm disconnected from the tie rod place the steering shaft exactly in the middle (rotate the wheel count the turns and put it in middle of travel). Now rotate the Pitman arm back and forth with your hand. There should be no rotation just a slight click sound. If the pitman rotates your box needs adjustment. Adjust to the obtain a slight click in the rotation of the pitman arm. Thus takes 2 people in the car to do. You should end up with 1 to 1 1/2 inches of steering wheel play max. If you can't adjust it it's time for a rebuild. Only use the service bulletins to adjust the box. You should never have to centralize the worm gear unless you replace the worm or someone played with the adjustment.

[Big hammer]

When I purchased my A, it would not return to straight ahead after turning, also had to much play. I was 16 so not much experience, I removed the column, disassembled, cleaned followed Fords service bulletins to the letter! After reinstalling about an inch of play and it would return to center after turning! If a dumb kid could follow Fords service bulletins and fix his A so can you! Fords service bulletins are a must to have and following the step by step procedure you will fix your steering problem!
The reason I under took this repair was, I got embarrassed from getting stuck on ice from not being able to turn back fast enough! I put it in gear, got out and pushed it off the curb, boy I did a lot of pushing from battery going dead and such! Young, dumb, and strong :-)

[5lugnuts]

"No slop right to left and 5-6" left to right."

This is the part that is confusing people. Slop is measured with the car at rest moving the steering wheel from side to side. Your description sounds like you are measuring slop while driving with the car pulling to the left while you are compensating by steering to the right. (as if the front and rear axles are not parallel - not saying it is so)


"Pitman arm and sector shaft not moving when moving steering wheel."

This sounds like the car is at rest and you are demonstrating slop in the steering.

I like to replace bushings, gasket, sector housing and sector shaft while box is in the car. Disconnect battery, remove starter, remove clamp holding column to dash, remove box from chassis and rotate toward passenger side and replace parts. The bushings take the most wear from sand and dirt because they are exposed behind pitman arm.

If you want to remove box and column, disconnect wires and remove sector housing and shaft first, then it will pass between the pedals and out. remove floor boards maybe.

Refill it with John Deer Corn Grease when done.

[Rip]

After "have no looseness" I shud have added"with draglink connected and tires still off ground".

Don't have a clue what is "&#128546 n blue face". Sorry.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Rip

My results of yesterday efforts---
In garage::::Tires off ground, draglink disconnected at pitman and visually tires straight ahead (didn't measure toe). Only slight tad of play in sector/worm mesh with fore and aft movement of pitman. Steering arm, kingpins, draglink,tierod have no looseness. Steering wheel has measured 1-1/2" slop each way, right and left slop from straightened tires.
When rocking tires at top and bottom (12 and 6 o'clock), very slight movement implying to me maybe improper torque (unsure what is correct number ) on wheel bearing. Forgot to spin tires to check if any brake drag.

Test drive::::now wondering about my driving technique....going straight I can physically center the steering wheel ( I remember wheel orientation was suggested as not important but feel better centered like newer cars) and have 1-1/2 " slop each to right and left (3" total) (I guess my original 5-6" slop was visual mental mistake��) before affecting tire direction. In this straight ahead, centered steering wheel, a slight drift to right occurs possibly due to crowned road or tire with lowered pressure( misplaced 3 air pressure Gage's, so need to buy but "look" even��. Found level parking area and noticed very little drift to right, Although I favor holding wheel to left to stop drift. But that and the 3" total slop still bother me. Shud it???
Thanks, Rip

First step before doing any road testing or front end diagnostics is to air the tires. Yes they may look even but maybe they are even with 10 lbs of air in them..


Maybe it's king pin or a loose backing plate did you look and see what is rocking when you shake 6-12?

Don't measure toe in the air and also Ck for excessive movement with the wheels loaded on the ground as well

Maybe you can add your location to your avatar, this will help any locals to find and help you.

I wouldn't doubt it if your box needs a rebuild.. Adjustments will only work properly when the internal parts are in good shape

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Is steering wheel position REALLY that important? IF, you're that worried, jist put a RED tape on the top, like NASCAR drivers, so you know whin you're going STRAIGHT ahead.
Bill Practical

[5lugnuts]

With front wheels off the ground the slop will not be present because there is no force on the parts you are inspecting.

With the wheels on the ground have someone move the steering wheel left and right as if being in the slop zone. At the same time look look at the all steering parts under the car from behind the left front wheel. You should be able to see the pitman arm clearly and also the drag link, tierod and king pins.

As your helper moves the steering wheel you will be able to notice which parts are causing the problem. Look closely at where the pitman arm goes through the chassis for movement. Any slight movement there could indicate a loose pitman arm bolt, loose steering box bolts (maybe tighten those bolts for good luck) or worn sector shaft bushings. Movement in draglink ends or tierod ends should be easier to notice. Your helper should be moving the steering wheel left and right steadily.

[5lugnuts]

With front wheels off the ground the slop will not be present because there is no force on the parts you are inspecting.

With the wheels on the ground have someone move the steering wheel left and right as if being in the slop zone. At the same time look at the all steering parts under the car from behind the left front wheel. You should be able to see the pitman arm clearly and also the drag link, tierod and king pins.

As your helper moves the steering wheel you will be able to notice which parts are causing the problem. Look closely at where the pitman arm goes through the chassis for movement. Any slight movement there could indicate a loose pitman arm bolt, loose steering box bolts (maybe tighten those bolts for good luck) or worn sector shaft bushings. Movement in draglink ends or tie rod ends should be easier to notice. Your helper should be moving the steering wheel left and right steadily.

Have you tried adjusting the steering box? The position of the steering wheel might have been changed if someone removed and replaced the pitman arm incorectly. I know some people say adjusting the tie rod will not affect the position of the steering wheel, but that is not true. By taking one tie rod end off completely and then moving the tie rod in or out of the attached end an adjustment can be made. Just be sure you have enough threads left on both sides of the tie rod when you put it back together.

Set the steering wheel where you want it, remove one side of tie rod end (passenger side), move wheel still attached to tie rod (driver side) to straight ahead position and put the tie rod end back on and adjust toe in again without moving driver side wheel. Make sure you have enough threads left on both ends. Will be almost perfect or do it again for perfect!