The Ford Barn

31 Model A · 07-16-2016, 07:02 AM

a Model A tranny:

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/...jeep-isnt-one/

Bruce in southern OH · 07-16-2016, 11:50 AM

Good info, thanks

larry harding · 07-17-2016, 08:13 AM

my first auto when i was 16 (along time ago) was a 1945 jeep. it had a willys logo on the body and ford on the hood. i had some tranny problems and found the transfer case had a smaller diameter middle shaft than the willys one. ford must have cut some corners. evedently ford didn't exactly copy the willys design. i suspect the jeep i had was pieced together with war surplus parts. i sure got a lot of mechanic experence trying to keep that thing running.
if anyone is interested there is a documentry on youtube on the history of jeep from early development to later civilian sales. very interesting if you have about an hour to kill.

5lugnuts · 07-17-2016, 02:16 PM

The first reconnaissance car (later called jeep) was built by Bantam. The gov then requested prototypes (meeting design requirements) to be submitted by auto manufactures. Willys, Bantam and Ford submitted their samples for testing. The Willys patern was chosen. During the war about 600,000 jeeps were built more than half by Willys. The Ford built jeeps had a Ford F on all bolt heads and stamped on most parts. Ford wanted the advertising to GIs and to not have their vehicles confused with the Willys vehicles although all parts were interchangeable. The Ford chassis was overweight and different from the Willys chassis. As a result the Ford vehicles exceeded the weight requirement more than Willys. Willys got the first big contract then Ford got a contract.
Bantam was not chosen to build jeeps but was chosen to build jeep trailers. At the time Bantam was a smaller company and not expected to be able to produce as many vehicles as were needed.
The engine used was a flathead 4 cyl. I'm not sure about the transmission being from the Model A but it looked very similar in size with a transfer case bolted on the back. The Model A clutch disk will fit the jeep trans.
Both vehicles have clever and simple designs and have lasted longer then expected.

31 Model A · 07-17-2016, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5lugnuts

.
Bantam was not chosen to build jeeps but was chosen to build jeep trailers.

I went looking everywhere for one of those trailers a few years ago, cheapest one I could find was just under $2000.00 before restoration.

There was/is a guy in Texas who has acres of those trailers and other military surplus vehicles, try getting one for less that $2000.00.

The article said, "oldest existing Jeep"....Bantam was the first to build one for sure but....there is a restored Bantam in the UK today.

Dino's A · 07-17-2016, 06:41 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry harding

my first auto when i was 16 (along time ago) was a 1945 jeep. it had a willys logo on the body and ford on the hood. i had some tranny problems and found the transfer case had a smaller diameter middle shaft than the willys one. ford must have cut some corners. evedently ford didn't exactly copy the willys design. i suspect the jeep i had was pieced together with war surplus parts. i sure got a lot of mechanic experence trying to keep that thing running.
if anyone is interested there is a documentry on youtube on the history of jeep from early development to later civilian sales. very interesting if you have about an hour to kill.

The Ford built jeeps transfer case's were made by ford and Dana/Spicer for the Willys made jeeps and the parts are made identical. Gears, intermediate shaft, caged bearings, main shaft and so on were all the same dimensions. The only difference is that most FORD parts had a small script letter "F" stamped on them. As rumor had it, Ford did not want to warranty Willys parts as well as his own so he identified them accordingly. This also applies for the rest of the vehicle. There were some small differences, but parts will interchange.

Dino's A · 07-17-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 31 Model A

I went looking everywhere for one of those trailers a few years ago, cheapest one I could find was just under $2000.00 before restoration.

There was/is a guy in Texas who has acres of those trailers and other military surplus vehicles, try getting one for less that $2000.00.

The article said, "oldest existing Jeep"....Bantam was the first to build one for sure but....there is a restored Bantam in the UK today.

That guy is Brent Mullins. Good guy. Most of the items on my jeep came from him.

Dino's A · 07-17-2016, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5lugnuts

The first reconnaissance car (later called jeep) was built by Bantam. The gov then requested prototypes (meeting design requirements) to be submitted by auto manufactures. Willys, Bantam and Ford submitted their samples for testing. The Willys patern was chosen. During the war about 600,000 jeeps were built more than half by Willys. The Ford built jeeps had a Ford F on all bolt heads and stamped on most parts. Ford wanted the advertising to GIs and to not have their vehicles confused with the Willys vehicles although all parts were interchangeable. The Ford chassis was overweight and different from the Willys chassis. As a result the Ford vehicles exceeded the weight requirement more than Willys. Willys got the first big contract then Ford got a contract.
Bantam was not chosen to build jeeps but was chosen to build jeep trailers. At the time Bantam was a smaller company and not expected to be able to produce as many vehicles as were needed.
The engine used was a flathead 4 cyl. I'm not sure about the transmission being from the Model A but it looked very similar in size with a transfer case bolted on the back. The Model A clutch disk will fit the jeep trans.
Both vehicles have clever and simple designs and have lasted longer then expected.

Ford frames were one piece rails, Willys used 3 pieces riveted. The front cross member on the Ford is more of a square design and the Willy's is more of a tube design. Some early 1942 GPW Ford jeeps actually had willys frames because Ford wanted to use their own.

The transmission is no where close to the jeeps. The jeep was a Willys design and came out of their sedan cars. It was synchro mesh 2nd & third.
Not a strong design however, it's brother a few years later the T-90, was much stronger.

Bruce Lancaster · 07-18-2016, 12:15 PM

I need to do some reading, but I believe all 3 makers (Ford, bantam, and Willys) went through several generations. All made multiple prototypes for study by the military, then there were fairly small numbers of true Ford and Bantams purchased and put into service.
I believe that the first jeeps in actions were these semi-production Bantams (Continental powered, as Bantam engines were far too small to consider) sent to the British army in Egypt. The Ford and Bantam models were dropped after the first purchase, which I think was in low hundreds of vehicles. There was also an intermediate Willys in this period, very close to the final model but with visible difference...also rare but briefly purchased. After all this stirring around the familiar MB Willys, containing features gleaned from all the experiments, was standardized along with its near clone Ford GPW and both were of course produced in large numbers.

5lugnuts · 07-18-2016, 03:16 PM

You guys know a lot about the history of the jeep for WWII. Glad to hear it!

I hope you don't mind me mentioning a few more things you already know but I just want to let other Model A people know that there is another historic, cleverly designed, simple, vehicle if they ever would like to get interested in another journey to explore and restore.

The WWII jeep is another 45 mph vehicle that will go faster, but not for long. There are clubs locally and nationally (MVPA) to discover. There are restored Bantam jeeps, Willys MA and MB, Ford GP and GPW and a full line of repo parts. It would probably be better to find one that is done and improve it.

The link below contains some history about the jeep but is overly slanted to the Ford jeeps. "Pigmy" was a nick name for an early vehicle submitted by
Ford for evaluation. It was officially called the Ford GP if I am not mistaken and it was evaluated along with the earlier Willys MA. The final names were MB and GPW although they were known as just "jeeps" to everyone. My point here is that Ford did not develop the vehicle by itself. Again the final pattern chosen was the Willys

http://www.recoilweb.com/commemorati...ys-104477.html

larry harding · 07-19-2016, 09:01 AM

i have heard that the ford jeeps were supposed to have interchangeable part, but the intermediate shaft on my transfer case was definitely smaller than the willys one. there was a local garage here that worked on jeeps and he found me a used shaft that was better than mine. i'll bet there were other variations as well between the manufacturers. i don't remember any ford logo on parts, but i was only 16 at the tine and knew very little about such things. it was all i could do to keep that thing running driving like H... and knowing little about maintenance, had a lot of fun thoug.

mshmodela · 07-19-2016, 07:07 PM

http://americanmilitarynews.com/2016...emed-wrangler/

If FIAT is smart they will build these Jeeps

Dino's A · 07-19-2016, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry harding

i have heard that the ford jeeps were supposed to have interchangeable part, but the intermediate shaft on my transfer case was definitely smaller than the willys one. there was a local garage here that worked on jeeps and he found me a used shaft that was better than mine. i'll bet there were other variations as well between the manufacturers. i don't remember any ford logo on parts, but i was only 16 at the tine and knew very little about such things. it was all i could do to keep that thing running driving like H... and knowing little about maintenance, had a lot of fun though.

War production & the CJ-2A jeeps all used the 3/4" intermediate shafts. You could of had a jeep that some one put in a later Transfer case that had a 1 1/8" size shaft or a 1 1/4" size shaft. The units were the same dimensions so they fit well.

Capt Quahog · 07-20-2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

i have heard that the ford jeeps were supposed to have interchangeable part, .

Had a 1942 Ford GPW years ago. Recall that a few "cosmetic" things were different from the Willys MB. The steering wheel on the Ford military jeep was all khaki color plastic while the Willys had metal spokes. Also, the storage compartment lid covers on the rear fenders of the Ford were embossed while the Willys were flat. Always figured that the mechanical parts were interchangeable. As recalled, Ford components were usually marked with a script letter "F".

Image below is of the 42 Ford GPW referenced.

SeaSlugs · 07-20-2016, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mshmodela

http://americanmilitarynews.com/2016...emed-wrangler/

If FIAT is smart they will build these Jeeps

wow id buy one of those! Thats the drawback for me for wanting a ww2 era jeep is the speed factor of them. Im not expecting to cruise on the interstate all day with it but 60 would be nice

5lugnuts · 07-20-2016, 09:55 AM

Cruising off road and through the woods at five mph making your own road is a lot more fun than doing 60 mph on the highway. I've been told the Model A did pretty well off road back in the day too. With the tall tires, high clearance and that low first gear with that heavy flywheel I would think it would do pretty good.

SeaSlugs · 07-20-2016, 10:20 AM

oh dont get me wrong I'd love to have a ww2 era jeep and actually go off road but around here that means driving an hour+ to be able to do that legally...

CarlG · 07-21-2016, 10:12 AM

Back in the mid '50's, my Dad borrowed a Jeep to do some work around our church. When I saw the Ford script on the back, I just had to have one. Never happened -- got a Model A instead.

ursus · 07-22-2016, 05:24 PM

I have an unused cluster gear that came with a tag reading Ford-GP-A-3113. It has the same dimensions as the Model-A cluster gear. I found it an estate sale of a guy that was into old Jeeps years ago. Maybe this is from one of the prototype Ford Jeeps?

5lugnuts · 07-23-2016, 10:52 AM

You make me wonder?

Somebody on here mentioned the A transmission was modified for the Willys which had synchromesh. The clutch disk is interchangeable and probably the cluster gear is the same as posted above. Would the Willys syncromesh parts fit in the Ford box?

Someone said the ford tranny would not be strong enough for the Jeep, but when the transfer case is bolted behind the Willys transmission a lot of the stress on the transmission would be moved to the transfer case gears.

So, if the gears in both boxes were the same, would the Willys syncro parts fit the Model A gears? And would they fit in the Model A box? Is that how those Model A syncromesh transmissions are put together?

07-16-2016, 07:02 AM	#1
31 Model A Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Here I am in front of Todd's Grocery in 1931 selling Grit newspapers Posts: 2,548	First Jeep was a Ford with...... a Model A tranny: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/...jeep-isnt-one/ __________________ "Bullshit and Brilliance Comes with Age and Experience" "Hey Lady, ya wanna buy a Grit?" "If you don't learn to laugh at trouble, you won't have anything to laugh at when you're old" Will Rogers

07-16-2016, 11:50 AM	#2
Bruce in southern OH Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Proctorville Posts: 1,582	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Good info, thanks

07-17-2016, 08:13 AM	#3
larry harding Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: western n.c. Posts: 393	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... my first auto when i was 16 (along time ago) was a 1945 jeep. it had a willys logo on the body and ford on the hood. i had some tranny problems and found the transfer case had a smaller diameter middle shaft than the willys one. ford must have cut some corners. evedently ford didn't exactly copy the willys design. i suspect the jeep i had was pieced together with war surplus parts. i sure got a lot of mechanic experence trying to keep that thing running. if anyone is interested there is a documentry on youtube on the history of jeep from early development to later civilian sales. very interesting if you have about an hour to kill.

07-17-2016, 02:16 PM	#4
5lugnuts Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Clermont in Central Florida Posts: 111	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... The first reconnaissance car (later called jeep) was built by Bantam. The gov then requested prototypes (meeting design requirements) to be submitted by auto manufactures. Willys, Bantam and Ford submitted their samples for testing. The Willys patern was chosen. During the war about 600,000 jeeps were built more than half by Willys. The Ford built jeeps had a Ford F on all bolt heads and stamped on most parts. Ford wanted the advertising to GIs and to not have their vehicles confused with the Willys vehicles although all parts were interchangeable. The Ford chassis was overweight and different from the Willys chassis. As a result the Ford vehicles exceeded the weight requirement more than Willys. Willys got the first big contract then Ford got a contract. Bantam was not chosen to build jeeps but was chosen to build jeep trailers. At the time Bantam was a smaller company and not expected to be able to produce as many vehicles as were needed. The engine used was a flathead 4 cyl. I'm not sure about the transmission being from the Model A but it looked very similar in size with a transfer case bolted on the back. The Model A clutch disk will fit the jeep trans. Both vehicles have clever and simple designs and have lasted longer then expected.

07-18-2016, 12:15 PM	#9
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I need to do some reading, but I believe all 3 makers (Ford, bantam, and Willys) went through several generations. All made multiple prototypes for study by the military, then there were fairly small numbers of true Ford and Bantams purchased and put into service. I believe that the first jeeps in actions were these semi-production Bantams (Continental powered, as Bantam engines were far too small to consider) sent to the British army in Egypt. The Ford and Bantam models were dropped after the first purchase, which I think was in low hundreds of vehicles. There was also an intermediate Willys in this period, very close to the final model but with visible difference...also rare but briefly purchased. After all this stirring around the familiar MB Willys, containing features gleaned from all the experiments, was standardized along with its near clone Ford GPW and both were of course produced in large numbers.

07-18-2016, 03:16 PM	#10
5lugnuts Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Clermont in Central Florida Posts: 111	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... You guys know a lot about the history of the jeep for WWII. Glad to hear it! I hope you don't mind me mentioning a few more things you already know but I just want to let other Model A people know that there is another historic, cleverly designed, simple, vehicle if they ever would like to get interested in another journey to explore and restore. The WWII jeep is another 45 mph vehicle that will go faster, but not for long. There are clubs locally and nationally (MVPA) to discover. There are restored Bantam jeeps, Willys MA and MB, Ford GP and GPW and a full line of repo parts. It would probably be better to find one that is done and improve it. The link below contains some history about the jeep but is overly slanted to the Ford jeeps. "Pigmy" was a nick name for an early vehicle submitted by Ford for evaluation. It was officially called the Ford GP if I am not mistaken and it was evaluated along with the earlier Willys MA. The final names were MB and GPW although they were known as just "jeeps" to everyone. My point here is that Ford did not develop the vehicle by itself. Again the final pattern chosen was the Willys http://www.recoilweb.com/commemorati...ys-104477.html

07-19-2016, 09:01 AM	#11
larry harding Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: western n.c. Posts: 393	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... i have heard that the ford jeeps were supposed to have interchangeable part, but the intermediate shaft on my transfer case was definitely smaller than the willys one. there was a local garage here that worked on jeeps and he found me a used shaft that was better than mine. i'll bet there were other variations as well between the manufacturers. i don't remember any ford logo on parts, but i was only 16 at the tine and knew very little about such things. it was all i could do to keep that thing running driving like H... and knowing little about maintenance, had a lot of fun thoug.

07-19-2016, 07:07 PM	#12
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... http://americanmilitarynews.com/2016...emed-wrangler/ If FIAT is smart they will build these Jeeps __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

07-20-2016, 09:55 AM	#16
5lugnuts Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Clermont in Central Florida Posts: 111	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Cruising off road and through the woods at five mph making your own road is a lot more fun than doing 60 mph on the highway. I've been told the Model A did pretty well off road back in the day too. With the tall tires, high clearance and that low first gear with that heavy flywheel I would think it would do pretty good.

07-20-2016, 10:20 AM	#17
SeaSlugs Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central, IL Posts: 3,968	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... oh dont get me wrong I'd love to have a ww2 era jeep and actually go off road but around here that means driving an hour+ to be able to do that legally... __________________ 1929 Model AA - Need long splash aprons!

07-21-2016, 10:12 AM	#18
CarlG Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 9,115	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... Back in the mid '50's, my Dad borrowed a Jeep to do some work around our church. When I saw the Ford script on the back, I just had to have one. Never happened -- got a Model A instead. __________________ Alaskan A's Antique Auto Mushers of Alaska Model A Ford Club of America Model A Restorers Club Antique Automobile Club of America Mullins Owner's Club

07-22-2016, 05:24 PM	#19
ursus Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,375	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... I have an unused cluster gear that came with a tag reading Ford-GP-A-3113. It has the same dimensions as the Model-A cluster gear. I found it an estate sale of a guy that was into old Jeeps years ago. Maybe this is from one of the prototype Ford Jeeps?

07-23-2016, 10:52 AM	#20
5lugnuts Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Clermont in Central Florida Posts: 111	Re: First Jeep was a Ford with...... You make me wonder? Somebody on here mentioned the A transmission was modified for the Willys which had synchromesh. The clutch disk is interchangeable and probably the cluster gear is the same as posted above. Would the Willys syncromesh parts fit in the Ford box? Someone said the ford tranny would not be strong enough for the Jeep, but when the transfer case is bolted behind the Willys transmission a lot of the stress on the transmission would be moved to the transfer case gears. So, if the gears in both boxes were the same, would the Willys syncro parts fit the Model A gears? And would they fit in the Model A box? Is that how those Model A syncromesh transmissions are put together?